Quantum Theory

[Tsuyoiko]

I intend this thread as a free-for-all for any discussions relating to Quantum Theory.

I decided to start it as some comments on the critical thinking thread were going too far off topic.

If anyone sees any flaws in my reasoning, or in my understanding of Quantum Theory I would be glad to hear a better explanation, preferably from experts in the field!

if gods particle is removed from the matter within mount fuji one could lift the entire mountain with a single feather....I don't know about you but that makes very little sense to me...

I agree that the statement makes no sense. However, it's not because Quantum Theory makes no sense, but because if we analyse that statement in the context of Quantum Theory, it becomes meaningless.

The particle you refer to as the 'god particle' is actually called the Higgs boson. Although the existence of the Higgs boson is predicted by the Standard Model, its existence has not yet been confirmed.

Also, its mass is not predicted by the theory; the best that can be said is that it is relatively massive, having a mass broadly similar to the W and Z bosons, i.e., around a 100 times heavier than a proton.

I'd be interested to know where you heard that statement. It seems to be based on a misunderstanding of the fact that the Higgs boson is fundamentally tied up with the concept of mass.

I really like the explanation by Roger Cashmore: http://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/particle/higgs2.htm

Here is the gist:

nature has given us more than one elementary particle and they come with a wide variety of masses...

Unfortunately if you try and write down a theory of particles and their interactions then the simplest version requires all the masses of the particles to be zero. So on one hand we have a whole variety of masses and on the other a theory in which all masses should be zero...

Peter Higgs...proposed that the whole of space is permeated by a field...As particles move through space they travel through this field, and if they interact with it they acquire what appears to be mass...

fields have particles associated with them...So there must be a particle associated with the Higg's field, and this is the Higgs boson.

(If you don't like this explanation there are others here: http://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/particle/higgs.htm)

In other words, the Higgs boson has a field associated with it which permeates all space, and it is by interaction with this field that elementary particles acquire mass.

If I understand it correctly, this means that if the Standard Model is correct, without the Higgs boson, there would be no mass.

So let's look at your statement now we're clear about what the Higgs boson is.

Firstly, if the Standard Model is flawed and the Higgs boson doesn't exist, then the statement is trivially meaningless since it refers to something that doesn't exist.

Assuming the Higgs boson exists, then I think the statement is still meaningless. Removing the particle from Mount Fuji would mean the mountain no longer has any mass, so we wouldn't need to try lifting it with a feather as it would no longer be under the influence of gravity. I'm not even sure that the concept of removing the particle from an object makes any sense, since it is fundamental to the Higgs field, if it exists, that it permeates all space.

So, you are indeed correct that the statement "if gods particle is removed from the matter within mount fuji one could lift the entire mountain with a single feather" makes no sense. But the reason we can show this is not because Quantum Theory makes no sense, but precisely by appeal to Quantum Theory itself.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

if it makes sense to you....then you don't understand it fully

That's an idea you hear a lot, and I think it's a very rough paraphrase of some statements made by famous physicists 30 or 40 years ago:

For those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it.

I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.

However, I think Richard Feynman came closer to the truth in the following quotations:

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.

We have always had a great deal of difficulty understanding the world view that quantum mechanics represents. At least I do, because I'm an old enough man that I haven't got to the point that this stuff is obvious to me. Okay, I still get nervous with it.... You know how it always is, every new idea, it takes a generation or two until it becomes obvious that there's no real problem. I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem.

"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem"

 

[Mycernius]

They hope the new LHC might finally unveil the Higgs boson.

 

[theAlphaDuck]

They hope the new LHC might finally unveil the Higgs boson.

well that IS why they are building it

yes i know the mt. Fuji statement made was not a truly scientific statement...

but i was mearly trying to put the higgs boson (WAS AWARE OF ITS TRUE NAME) into lay-mans terms....

quantum theory is a VERY exciting field of science!

I like the direction of quantum computers.
this is most likely going to be the benefit that we will see fruit of.

however i would still argue that SO little of it makes any sense...
like the Zombie cat.....

but this counter intuitive nature of the subject is what makes it interesting and exciting!

 

[Tsuyoiko]

but this counter intuitive nature of the subject is what makes it interesting and exciting!

I think that some theories in conventional science are counter-intuitive too. Take heliocentrism. We're so used to the truth of that theory now that we don't give it a second thought, but to many people, the idea that the Earth orbits the Sun must have seemed like nonsense back then. I mean, we can see with our own eyes that the Sun orbits the Earth, right?

Similarly, I don't think it should concern us that some concepts in Quantum Theory seem contrary to our own limited experience.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Well, they switched on the LHC and it works!

Article

This is fun too:

LHC Rap

 

[Mycernius]

They have had a big bang day on radio 4 today. The afternoon play was a Torchwood special and all week, at 15:45, they have been talking about 5 particles. Monday was the electron, yesterday quarks (I missed it ) and today anti-matter.

 

[RockLee]

Hmm, I'm wondering if they'll ever going to uncover the "God particle". Might be wishful thinking.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Hmm, I'm wondering if they'll ever going to uncover the "God particle". Might be wishful thinking.

If the Higgs boson exists they'll discover it with the LHC. If they don't discover it, the standard model must be flawed, and they'll have to further investigate the Higgsless models.

Either way, it's pretty exciting. Even if they don't find the Higgs, they will be recreating the conditions of the Big Bang, so we are still bound to learn a lot about the structure of the Universe.

 

[RockLee]

If the Higgs boson exists they'll discover it with the LHC. If they don't discover it, the standard model must be flawed, and they'll have to further investigate the Higgsless models.
Either way, it's pretty exciting. Even if they don't find the Higgs, they will be recreating the conditions of the Big Bang, so we are still bound to learn a lot about the structure of the Universe.

I wonder if they DO find out, people might go and question the possibility of a "god". Hmmm, interesting indeed. If science can prove there ain't no god, there will be a lot of disappointed people. ☝

 

[Mycernius]

If science can prove there ain't no god, there will be a lot of disappointed people. ☝

Science isn't out to prove or disprove god, it just does what it should and you draw conclusions from the results. So far science hasn't shown any evidence for the existance for god(s), but if evidence were found then that would be accepted. Unlike religion, science is flexible and changes with each and every discovery.

Quick particle joke:
A proton walks into a bar and asks the barman that he lost his neutron. The barman says, "Are you positive?"

 

[Tsuyoiko]

The Higgs boson has nothing whatever to do with god, despite its rather unfortunate nickname. It's just a particle.

 

[Amigo]

LHC's scientists will have the chance to prove in practice many things that were only supposed in theory about Quantum Theory. For example, the interaction between the weak-force and the electromagnetic-force which is not proven yet in practice, although theorists say by means of the equations that it's quite clear. What would happen if they manage to separate quarks? Is that impossible? They will see, but what is surely impossible is to find de Higgs Boson.
Higgs Boson exists, but it doesn't mean that we will be able to detect it.
We will never detect Higgs Boson because is scientifically impossible.

This kind of sarcastic sentece by Stephen Hawking is quite revealing:

"I think it will be much more exciting if we don't find the Higgs. That will show something is wrong, and we need to think again. I have a bet of 100 dollars that we won't find the Higgs"

I'm sure he wanted to point that it isn't possible at all.

If you think about the Hawking's theories about black-holes, they match with the Higgs Boson as a link to other physics' laws. What is to say, a gate to other (bubble) universe.

That's my opinion.