Question Please read this waka
- Thread starter Ger
- Start date
- 22 Feb 2008
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The title is 月前碁 (lit. "go in front of the moon", meaning "go with viewing the moon" or like that).
The artist is 御歌所寄人信行, i.e., 須川信行 Sugawa Nobuyuki.
ja.wikipedia.org
(all in Japanese)
The artist is 御歌所寄人信行, i.e., 須川信行 Sugawa Nobuyuki.
須川信行 - Wikipedia
ja.wikipedia.org
Ger
後輩
- 17 Jan 2018
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- Thread starter
- #3
Thanks very much for your reply.
As for the title I was confused because google also gave "a month ago". But then I guess it has to start with a quantifier. I had hoped it was possible to get a general idea as to what the poem is about, after all playing in the moonshine might be difficult. But then some experts play it using only one color of stones, or even a blind game. Are some characters recognizable to shed more light?...
As for the title I was confused because google also gave "a month ago". But then I guess it has to start with a quantifier. I had hoped it was possible to get a general idea as to what the poem is about, after all playing in the moonshine might be difficult. But then some experts play it using only one color of stones, or even a blind game. Are some characters recognizable to shed more light?...
Ger
後輩
- 17 Jan 2018
- 190
- 95
- Thread starter
- #4
Please read the poem attached. I understand it is a "waka", a 31 syllable poem. If to long, an impression as to what it is about would be nice. Or maybe the poem is recognized and its content could be linked to or copied here.
Given are from right to left:
Two lines from the box lid's exterior.
Two lines and a seal from the box lid's interior side.
The poem.
Sofar I got on the exterior:
御謌所寄人 Guest of imperial palace ?
須川信行 Nobuyuki Sugawa 1839-1917 poet and physician ?
翁懐紙 old man - note/letter ?
月前碁 poem title: go in the moonlight ?
interior:
癸亥ハ月上浣
10 hog(1863...), 8th month, shànghuàn [Chinese: the first ten-day period of a month]
襄陵簽 ?
seal ?
poem:
月前碁 poem title: go in the moonlight ?
御歌所寄人信行 Guest of imperial palace Nobuyuki ?
waka text ???
Thanks a lot....
Given are from right to left:
Two lines from the box lid's exterior.
Two lines and a seal from the box lid's interior side.
The poem.
Sofar I got on the exterior:
御謌所寄人 Guest of imperial palace ?
須川信行 Nobuyuki Sugawa 1839-1917 poet and physician ?
翁懐紙 old man - note/letter ?
月前碁 poem title: go in the moonlight ?
interior:
癸亥ハ月上浣
10 hog(1863...), 8th month, shànghuàn [Chinese: the first ten-day period of a month]
襄陵簽 ?
seal ?
poem:
月前碁 poem title: go in the moonlight ?
御歌所寄人信行 Guest of imperial palace Nobuyuki ?
waka text ???
Thanks a lot....
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- 12 Oct 2013
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Sorry, I can't get anything other than what you already have. The meanings are slightly different
御謌所 / 寄人 The first three are an official title. Something like "Official Court Poet". The second part is just saying "person". So the two together are "Member of the Official Court Poets"
須川信行 Nobuyuki Sugawa 1839-1917 (physician who turned full-time poet and, as above, one of the "official court poets".
翁懐紙 Writings/notes of an old man. (Self-deprecating, I think. Like "the scraps of writing of an old man"
月前碁 poem title: go in the moonlight ? ← Yes, you have it right.
interior:
癸亥ハ月上浣 Japan uses the Chinese zodiac cycle as well. I Japanese we'd say "Mizunoto August. 1st third of the month." Could be 1863. Could also be 1803 or 1923 or 1983. The question would be, when did Nobuyuki attain the title (or the sufficient skills to be recognized as) Official Court Poet. 1863 might be too early, as he was only 24 then.
襄陵簽 I'm not sure about this. Jōryōsen is the probable pronunciation, but not sure of the meaning. A name, i think, and possibly the name of the person who presented the box. Its not a real name, but a made-up "pen name".
seal = the seal reads 山襄之印 (seal of Sanjō). This is related to the above. It would be the personal seal of the person who is using the name Jōryōsen.
御歌所信行 Nobuyuki, of the Official Court Poets.
御謌所 / 寄人 The first three are an official title. Something like "Official Court Poet". The second part is just saying "person". So the two together are "Member of the Official Court Poets"
須川信行 Nobuyuki Sugawa 1839-1917 (physician who turned full-time poet and, as above, one of the "official court poets".
翁懐紙 Writings/notes of an old man. (Self-deprecating, I think. Like "the scraps of writing of an old man"
月前碁 poem title: go in the moonlight ? ← Yes, you have it right.
interior:
癸亥ハ月上浣 Japan uses the Chinese zodiac cycle as well. I Japanese we'd say "Mizunoto August. 1st third of the month." Could be 1863. Could also be 1803 or 1923 or 1983. The question would be, when did Nobuyuki attain the title (or the sufficient skills to be recognized as) Official Court Poet. 1863 might be too early, as he was only 24 then.
襄陵簽 I'm not sure about this. Jōryōsen is the probable pronunciation, but not sure of the meaning. A name, i think, and possibly the name of the person who presented the box. Its not a real name, but a made-up "pen name".
seal = the seal reads 山襄之印 (seal of Sanjō). This is related to the above. It would be the personal seal of the person who is using the name Jōryōsen.
御歌所信行 Nobuyuki, of the Official Court Poets.
Last edited:
Ger
後輩
- 17 Jan 2018
- 190
- 95
- Thread starter
- #7
Thanks a lot for your extensive answer.
I struggled with the date thinking too 1863 to be too early. And 1923 too late ( the poet had already died. But then the date is likely from the presenter or owner of the scroll ? As for 上浣 I did not manage to find the Japanese expression using google search, e.g. https://jisho.org/search/上浣
So thanks for your Mizunoto.
Reddit is quite big. Would you know a forum there that treats poems like this? Preferred in English but I am able to use Japanese, with much (careful) help of google translate.
I struggled with the date thinking too 1863 to be too early. And 1923 too late ( the poet had already died. But then the date is likely from the presenter or owner of the scroll ? As for 上浣 I did not manage to find the Japanese expression using google search, e.g. https://jisho.org/search/上浣
So thanks for your Mizunoto.
Reddit is quite big. Would you know a forum there that treats poems like this? Preferred in English but I am able to use Japanese, with much (careful) help of google translate.
- 12 Oct 2013
- 4,071
- 5,023
Yes, I think the calligraphy was presented as a gift to someone, and the presenter wrote the date of the gift inside the box, so probably 1923.
上浣 isn't normally used in everyday Japanese.
www.weblio.jp
I would try the r/translator subreddit. I don't think there is a specific calligraphy translation subreddit. There are two or three Japanese translators on there that can handle this kind of thing. Actually, we have a native speaker on this forum who might be able to do it, but I think he's taking a well-deserved break now. Anyway, break it down into smaller bits, otherwise it feels like too much work and translators will ignore it if it feels like too much work. I would start with the poem only.
I left out a bit on the last line in my post above 御歌所寄人信行 - "Nobuyuki, Member of the Official Court Poets"
上浣 isn't normally used in everyday Japanese.
「上澣」の意味や使い方 わかりやすく解説 Weblio辞書
「上澣」の意味は<p style="padding-bottom: 10px;"><!--AVOID_CROSSLINK-->読み方：じょうかん<!--/AVOID_CROSSLINK-->月の初めの10日間のこと。Weblio国語辞典では「上澣」の意味や使い方、用例、類似表現などを解説しています。
www.weblio.jp
I would try the r/translator subreddit. I don't think there is a specific calligraphy translation subreddit. There are two or three Japanese translators on there that can handle this kind of thing. Actually, we have a native speaker on this forum who might be able to do it, but I think he's taking a well-deserved break now. Anyway, break it down into smaller bits, otherwise it feels like too much work and translators will ignore it if it feels like too much work. I would start with the poem only.
I left out a bit on the last line in my post above 御歌所寄人信行 - "Nobuyuki, Member of the Official Court Poets"
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