particles: を: あそこを登っている人が見まえすか？

B

blippy

perpetual newb..currently

19 Nov 2010

22

1

• 26 Jan 2011

• #1

Hoping someone can explain to me the use of the particle を in the featured sentence あそこを登っている人が見まえすか？
It is given in the appendices of a grammar book, used to apparently show the contrast with に (for the curious, example given is 明日富士山に登ろうと思います) but with absolutely no explanation as to what is its function or meaning.
Thanks in advance.

 

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

18 Jan 2006

3,652

310

• 26 Jan 2011

• #2

I think Toritoribe's post in another thread answers your question.
富士山に登ったことがあります | Japan Forum

The whole thread 富士山に登ったことがあります
https://jref.com/threads/富士山に登ったことがあります.44550/

 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Moderator

Fifteen-year veteran

22 Feb 2008

18,266

4,926

• 27 Jan 2011

• #3

In addition, if it's あそこに登っている人が見えますか？, it could be interpreted that あそこに modifies 見えますか; "Can you see a climbing man over there?", and not "Can you see a man climbing in there?"

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

200

• 27 Jan 2011

• #4

Could that be rephrased あそこから登っている人が見えますか in that interpretation? Although if I'm interpreting this correctly, it seems like it should be そこに・から.

 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Moderator

Fifteen-year veteran

22 Feb 2008

18,266

4,926

• 27 Jan 2011

• #5

あそこから would be also interpreted as modifying 見えますか, thus, から indicates the point of the doer(seer); "Can you/we see him if you/we are in that place?", in the same sense as あそこからだと. That's the same to そこから or "your place"; "Can you see him in your place?"

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

200

• 27 Jan 2011

• #6

Ah, so here 登っている男 wouldn't be interpreted as 今登っている男 (i.e., progressive action), but as a state, as in もし登っている男がいるとしたら、あそこに見えますか. Does that make sense? So the interpretation is the same whether it's に or から when they modify 見える, then, right?

 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Moderator

Fifteen-year veteran

22 Feb 2008

18,266

4,926

• 27 Jan 2011

• #7

It can be used also when a person is actually climbing and the speaker knows it.

（ここからは見えるけど/ここからは見えないけど、）あそこから/そこから登っている人が見えますか。


Back to the topic, @ the OP, を can exactly indicate the place the person is climbing without these ambiguities we are discussing here.

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

7,842

200

• 27 Jan 2011

• #8

There sure are a lot of ways to interpret that!

 

B

blippy

perpetual newb..currently

19 Nov 2010

22

1

• 31 Jan 2011

• Thread starter
• #9

Sorry for late reply.

Right, I'm going to have to take some time to digest this, after which I will surely return with more amusing questions Thank you very much for your help thus far.