Paranormal Abilities

[Annubis]

this thread makes me feel so alone...

 

[sabro]

Chris Angel offered Geller and some hack "psychic" on Phenomenon a million dollars of his own money if they could guess what he had in an envelope. There was almost a physical altercation. They could not. (He had written 911 on a slip of paper) The video is on youtube. He has a second envelope that he plans to open on his show if you care to win that money.

 

[Chi65]

I'm afraid I don't know what this means...
I also am not too sure about what this means and where its significance lies. I believe you are referring to Ehud Segev the "Mentalizer"?. He has claimed that what he does is not at all paranormal, but is in fact just a trick.

Never heard of that one, sorry. Its just, what I would say myself after according own experiences, if on stage for that kind of entertainment. Its only fair. Its just theatre then.

Well, the media person

I meant that note, that Randi now only is after media persons, after what you (?) said.

which I'm guessing describes the likings of Sylvia Browne, wouldn't need the money because they are already conning the public of their money. So they don't need the money. But hey, if they have the power then it should be no problem obtaining the million dollars. I don't know what you mean when you say that Randi needs the money....

Here you say yourself, why some do not need the money, that is an illusion anyhow ;-)
As for Randi, he definitely also if not mainly lives on the showy "sceptical" appearances, for 100% sure. He does not make it for free!

No, he isn't doing this because he didn't get enough attention and decided to play spoilsport.

Every doubt in the world from me.

I mean, did he actually say that his intentions are in envy of other magicians?

Would you in his case of having been one of them yourself?

He wants people to think critically about the world around them. This is a good thing. It's good that there are people out there, like Randi, trying to inform the public on all the scams that charlatans cash in on.

Nothing against critics, particularly not in the direction of people like Sylvia, but he generalises this onto every gifted one, and thats more than fatal and as sick as any medieval witchhunt, sorry to say. Even you fall into this trap.

Well, no one deems him to be the all knowing judge.

Simply wrong, sorry, all about him do claim to know it all, and he himself does, all the time with very much arrogance even.

He's doing his job as a skeptic. He is not really a "media performer", assuming that means he claims paranormal powers and cashes in on it,... he was a magician and has never claimed that his magic was in the realm of the paranormal.

He does not have to have paranormal powers himself (who says so? Not me, not him), to be a media-performer, makes no sense to me. He nevertheless is clearly (and was!) a media -performer, incl. according cashes, be sure!

 

[Chi65]

this thread makes me feel so alone...

You are not alone at all

hugs!

 

[Mitsuo]

I meant that note, that Randi now only is after media persons, after what you (?) said.

Well of course Randi would go after the popular people, or media magnets, who claim powers. They have more influence on the public. Again, I will use Sylvia as an example. She has a huge fan base. If you were to stop her and showed the public how she duped them for all these years, they would be forced to start thinking critically about these claims. Of course there will always be people who want this kind of stuff to exist, no matter if the evidence is stacked against it, and will find someone else to "follow". I am confident to say that by challenging these claims it would change a number of "believers" into "non-believers". I honestly don't care if someone believes in a power or believes anything for that matter. But once they claim to HAVE a power, that's a different story. They need to back it up. If someone told me that they could move something with their mind. I would say "Really? That's cool, can you show me?". I would be skeptical, but I wouldn't immediately call them delusional or misguided. I would keep an open mind and allow them to show me what they can do. Maybe one day someone will silence the critics.

Here you say yourself, why some do not need the money, that is an illusion anyhow
As for Randi, he definitely also if not mainly lives on the showy "sceptical" appearances, for 100% sure. He does not make it for free!

Not sure what you mean by "illusion". No, like I mentioned earlier, they do not need the money because they are already conning the public out of thousands each year. But they do, of course, WANT the money. They just know that they won't pass the challenge because they know that they don't have powers. So referring to the Randi statement, are you saying that he is just acting skeptical?

Every doubt in the world from me.

Ones "feelings" does not equal fact.

Would you in his case of having been one of them yourself?

???
Are you asking if I were to be a magician would I be envious of the more popular magicians and resort to attacking them? If that's what you are asking, then no I wouldn't. It would make me work harder. But this is not the same. Randi isn't targeting magicians or media performers, as you like to call them. He targets people who make extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims derserve extraordinary evidence. Don't you think so? Randi is simply asking for them to produce that evidence.

Nothing against critics, particularly not in the direction of people like Sylvia, but he generalises this onto every gifted one, and thats more than fatal and as sick as any medieval witchhunt, sorry to say. Even you fall into this trap.

So, if they are famous then it's OK to criticize, but if it's just some random person making claims that they have paranormal powers then it's NOT OK to question them? First, you are making the assumption that there are in fact "gifted" people out there. Second, you are comparing this to an actual witchhunt.... I'm sorry to say that it's not even close. Not only is this being done to stop frauds and their deceiving ways, but primarily to introduce the role of critical thinking everywhere. You say that I fall into this trap. I can assure you that I don't fall under any kind of trap. However, if the trap is making an attempt to make people think rationally and critically about the world around them, and not believe everything they hear, then I guess I fall into this so-called trap. There is nothing sick about it. If he generalizes this onto the Sylvia Brownes and Uri Gellers, then it's only fair and rational to apply the same generalizations to everyone else who makes extraordinary claims.

Simply wrong, sorry, all about him do claim to know it all, and he himself does, all the time with very much arrogance even.

So are you saying that I think I know it all? I am very confused with this statement. Just because someone challenges something does not mean that they think they know it all. It's not arrogance that Randi is guilty of, it's confidence. He is confident in his methods, particularly the Scientific Method. A method that I live by. He has a reason to be confident. Everyone that he has ever tested has failed. Since some members on the forum claim powers, then maybe they can shut him up once and for all and completely shatter his confidence.

He does not have to have paranormal powers himself (who says so? Not me, not him), to be a media-performer, makes no sense to me. He nevertheless is clearly (and was!) a media -performer, incl. according cashes, be sure!

I never said that he had to have paranormal powers.... I thought you were defining the term "Media Performer" as someone who appears on shows and demonstrates their powers for money. I was obviously mistaken. Yes he was a performer and cashed in on it. But it's completely different than what he is so vehemently fighting against. He put on a show and people paid to watch. He doesn't mislead people into thinking that he has powers. That's the difference. I am sorry to say that there is no relevence to Randi's ex-magician status in this topic.

 

[Chi65]

Sorry, you are talking too much out of Randi's view, I had this kind of thing for months at the RD forum and elsewhere.

There are so many things, that I do not wish to repeat endlessly, if I get the feeling, that someone does not want to understand. maybe you have a look first, what we wrote befrore, for example how we definréd para-normal?
I am sick and tired to have to go via Sylvia over and over, although I said clerly, what I think about her. There are many other things, that you also ignore and that have been written already here. I suggest, you go to the Randi forum or the RD forum for this kind of talk.
Your view is not mine nor that of others who have made according experiences.

And your media-view is, sorry to say, a bit naive. I happen to know a bit about it, and am not interested in giving any lessons.
Also you several times forget to look back, to see, what you just wrote, and I was referring to. That does not get us anywhere, you just confuse things.

Please look for another partner or forum for this.

 

[Mars Man]

I can see that a few misses in communicative interaction have occured here. This kind of thing happens from time to time, and the best way to handle it is to be patient (no dashing ahead without firstly having ascertained the correctness of ideas presented), make efforts to apply ration where such is demanded, emotion where such is to be felt, and be open-minded to new information, and will to test it--be it a favorite understanding or not.

In the above exchanges, some of the miscommunications may be best rechecked...maybe; although that would take time and loving concern. We could just go on too...I'm not sure which would be the better course.

I am pretty certain that we have not agreed on any definition for the concept 'paranormal' here on this thread, so that might be a good thing to do. And I might point out, actually, that discussions and topics which have happened on other forums basically are not related to participation on this forum, so one might have to offer arguments once presented elsewhere, again...if discussion is to continue on a point made.

As for James Randi, I guess we need not talk about him so much here, but as for points made which can be backed by research and explanation he has done and given (for example the exposure of John of God, of the Abadiania, Brazil area, for fake 'healing' procedures, etc. etc.) that's partially what this thread is about.

As for thinking critically, and rationally, that is of the utmost importance, so I'd surely like to encourage that here in this subject too.

Annubis chan, you may feel alone in some way due to the content of this thread, but you are not alone on JREF here !!

 

[Goldiegirl]

I don't know if this is paranormal or just coincidence. I loved an old tv show form the early 70's, the "Bob Newhart Show". A few days ago the show just popped into my head and I thought of Suzanne Pleshette who played Bob's wife on the show. I always liked her. Then the next morning they said she had died. I hadn't thought about that tv show for years.

I did watch a show on the mental powers of people and things like luck. They show how flipping a quarter isn't always random. I know they showed that on 9/11 there wasn't a 50/50 split between heads and tails and how on other days that powerful events took place they witnessed the same happenings. I do think that there is more power out there than just what we can prove scientifically.

 

[Mars Man]

I did watch a show on the mental powers of people and things like luck. They show how flipping a quarter isn't always random. I know they showed that on 9/11 there wasn't a 50/50 split between heads and tails and how on other days that powerful events took place they witnessed the same happenings. I do think that there is more power out there than just what we can prove scientifically.

There have been articles in the magazines I get too. At times, and in certain settings, we could say that pure randomness is lacking, BUT...the catch there is based on a couple of definitions which are yet beyond our grasp. It is very interesting indeed.

Regarding 'power out there,' we would have to think about what we mean by that. We know, for example that gravity is a great force--power would not be a good term for that--yet presently see it as simply a law of our visible universe. Are we talking about something like that? Of course, in that case, there may well be some force out there. (I find it too emotional and steeped in ancient religious belief-systems to use the word power...it too easily conjures up images)

Then, in that we cannot at the moment prove the existence of such force or forces by observation and testing, how was that we came up with the idea that there is, or may be, some force out there that we otherwise do not know about? This is part of the testing system we should use in looking a what may otherwise, for now, be termed paranormal.

ps: nice to see you posting again Goldiegirl!

 

[Goldiegirl]

Words again, there just aren't enough I suppose! Power or force hmm...perhaps energy, I am not sure what would be best to use. I agree that certain words do come with a preconceived idea or concept. I think sometimes there is a feeling of something; like when you get that sick feeling in your stomach and you just know that something bad is going to happen. I find that strange, I usually don't get a feeling when something good is going to happen! I wonder why that is?

ps. It's good to be back! ( in Tokyo for the moment! )

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I meant that note, that Randi now only is after media persons, after what you (?) said.

Well of course Randi would go after the popular people, or media magnets, who claim powers. They have more influence on the public.

Actually, Randi is now only going after media persons because he wants to free up funds for other projects. Guess it was costing a lot to test every ordinary guy that turned up on his doorstep. Also, if you want a chance at that prize money, better get famous quick. The challenge closes in 2010 to free up the million for other uses.
James Randi - Wikipedia

 

[Chi65]

Words again, there just aren't enough I suppose! Power or force hmm...perhaps energy, I am not sure what would be best to use. I agree that certain words do come with a preconceived idea or concept. I think sometimes there is a feeling of something; like when you get that sick feeling in your stomach and you just know that something bad is going to happen. I find that strange, I usually don't get a feeling when something good is going to happen! I wonder why that is?

ps. It's good to be back! ( in Tokyo for the moment! )

Hi, Goldiegirl, I know what you mean with this feeling, but can assure you, I get also good "feelings" ahead and was also right every time, for example I often "forsaw" winners in a film-competition and met such winners before. But that simply means, that they were up to something of general and actual importance, including intensity of presenting it, no matter if perfect or not, often ot, because of lack of money. But the urge was felt by other judges as well and so they got the prices.
There is nothing para about this, just a kind of experienced perception, same again as a gardener, who knows, what will grow out of this or that or not.
There are definitely signs ahead, that I do not even have to analyse, as long, as they work. I can imagine a kind of "magnetism" sometimes, and many artists use such example to describe similar experiences. Similar to a compass (english word, please), that can figure out the magnetic poles of the globe from long distance even. We also have such inherited functions, animals often show an even better capability, instinkt is a meager and wishi washi word word for this, I think. "Powers" may even lead into the wrong direction, the opposite, receptiveness, would make it more clear in many cases.
Which again, means, if you are open to receive the signals, you will get them, if not, you will for example forget to take your umbrella before a rain or the like, as simple as that. Some say, they can feel it "in their bones" hich is perfectly right, and can very well be proven.

Now, if you can feel this, not just in terms of emotions, it simply means, that your senses work alright. We need them for survival, calling them unnormal or the like is completely upside down, even dangerous, if not silly.

As for coins, I had many similar experiences, and often the same combination appeared stubbornly for three times, and there really was something important then..., as much, as there were these winners, that I described before. When that "alarm" came, be it a dark or a joyous one, it was always followed by an according result, therefor I very early followed my urge to make notes beforhand, also in artistic ways, but as much by writings or/and other documentations. Happens all the time with my comrades in art at least.

We don't care much about ignorants, we simply call them sensory-blind and feel a bit sorry for them. But we often share the experiences amongst us.

I know for sure, its a well functioning kind of seismographic system, and thats it. If some scientists can't find the door for a proper proof to it, its their problem, not ours. We need not to convince anybody, nor bow before ignorants. That would only eat our energy and time, that we need for other things. It would even make us forget our "umbrella", thus no interest, sorry.
But we love to share, if not hit into the face. would you share your umbrella with someone, who had called you a liar before, when it rains? I would think twice then.

If the signs say, that we will be hit rather than getting thanks, even misused for others to make a living, we simply say, no, thank you, not for you, and close our bags in that direction. Anyone would in such a case. We all have this right and use it.

Whichhunt then? Rhubarb! Learn about your own navigating senses first, please. Right?

 

[Chi65]

Actually, Randi is now only going after media persons because he wants to free up funds for other projects. Guess it was costing a lot to test every ordinary guy that turned up on his doorstep. Also, if you want a chance at that prize money, better get famous quick. The challenge closes in 2010 to free up the million for other uses.
James Randi - Wikipedia

No interest in getting famous on that level, hehe.

I better wait for Rama's new discoveries, very exciting, actually!

Did you know, that it does not only cost Randi a lot of money (which is for example one reason, why he needs the media. . .), but also the participants? In fact, without putting your own money for preparations (be it a flight and stay even) in at first, nothing can happen.
Most people are not aware of this. Anyhow, you are only loosing it, because you get nothing back, because of his narrow definitions of paranormal, although at other places, even near him, as described, they are already more than questioned.

He should listen to those, in my opinion. And also some money-hungry flies, that fall into his trap (their own fault, in my opinion). If you look at those who claim and the proceedures on his site, you can see, what I mean.
Always good for a laugh, indeed, for both sides.

Next time those with phantom pains also have to prove, that they have phantom pains. Well, Rama can do the job easily now.

Randi should learn a bit more about neurology, in my opinion, at least!
Also some applicants, to know, how to argue and what to ask for during tests. In which case it would once more come out, not to be para at all, in which case the money will be gone, because it only goes towards "para". But some had willing silly guinee pigs.
It bites itself into the tail, so to say.

Who wishes to do so, can do. But the whole thing is just a blown up bubble for the media, also from Randi's side.

 

[Mars Man]

I had been hoping that this might get some media time too...As for James Randi, I guess we need not talk about him so much here, but as for points made which can be backed by research and explanation he has done and given (for example the exposure of John of God, of the Abadiania, Brazil area, for fake 'healing' procedures, etc. etc.) that's partially what this thread is about. (from a couple of posts upper to this one...)

But anyway, that should be ok for now, then. It seems you don't care for the person so much, though...

If I may here, Chi65 san, I'd like to point out one error about the earth's magnetic field--it's everywhere, basically, there's no far away to the north, per se, in magnetic field. The compass works because it is polarized and aligns with the field...otherwise, of course, it wouldn't be a compass.

It might be good to clear up the following: We don't care much about ignorants, we simply call them sensory-blind and feel a bit sorry for them. But we often share the experiences amongst us.

It's not clear who 'we' is and who 'the ignorants' are, so could please expound on that some more, for us?

I'm also wondering about this: Next time those with phantom pains also have to prove, that they have phantom pains. Well, Rama can do the job easily now.

I do know that a person can fake pain, as one guy that had been getting insurance money, had been found to have been doing once the company hired a private detective to verify that. Also we can find some who are prone to hypochondria, and can feel pain in their brain, as though it were in some part of the body, but the body would not be sending the signals for pain to the brain--it was made in the brain. So if a person claims to have a pain somewhere--missing limb or not--we should verify (in certain cases) if that person is telling the truth or not, and then (especially in cases of phatom limbs...where the limb is not there even) check out the brain mappings.

I do not see what this really has to do with testing for paranormal phenomena.

 

[Chi65]

I had been hoping that this might get some media time too...As for James Randi, I guess we need not talk about him so much here, but as for points made which can be backed by research and explanation he has done and given (for example the exposure of John of God, of the Abadiania, Brazil area, for fake 'healing' procedures, etc. etc.) that's partially what this thread is about. (from a couple of posts upper to this one...)
But anyway, that should be ok for now, then. It seems you don't care for the person so much, though...

I just find the hype and these fanatics around him kind of disgusting, in the real sense of the word. too much generalisations from real frauds towards those sensitives, who can in fact feel more, which is proven lately, yet constantly ignored by many Randi believers. And hats fatal, because provable a real whichhunt in old style again!
This does not mean, that he has not done some good things, just the rest or those, who are more pope like him, sorry, baa. . .give me a feeling like close to vomiting. And they always repeat the same sermon. . .and make some other sensitives shut their mouths, while we should much more listen and learn.

If I may here, Chi65 san, I'd like to point out one error about the earth's magnetic field--it's everywhere, basically, there's no far away to the north, per se, in magnetic field. The compass works because it is polarized and aligns with the field...otherwise, of course, it wouldn't be a compass.

I am well aware of this, just gave one example about the existence of this principle, which many easily forget. There are even smaller "attractions" (and they are getting smaller and smaller), if I may say so; and up to a big compass, everything is happening as well, and further on into the universe.
Thus, if my inner senses say, wow, there is "something", and then there really is something, I do not wish to argue with those, who wish to tell me, its not, because they can't sense it. That does not get anyone anywhere and only eats time and energy.

It might be good to clear up the following: We don't care much about ignorants, we simply call them sensory-blind and feel a bit sorry for them. But we often share the experiences amongst us. It's not clear who 'we' is and who 'the ignorants' are, so could please expound on that some more, for us?

Its those "us" that can feel a bit more than just machines, particularly artists and synnies. Ignorants are those, that ignore even the mentionings of other perceptions than their own limited ones. Happens a lot amongs some scientists, who think, they know it all and others know nothing. RD forum is full of them (and they usually become very agressive at times, others not. Easy to watch), but also of interested bridging people, and some started bridging, after first prejudices.
Don't feel meant, mars man, I regard you as very openminded and goodwilling, and probably as much a painter as the "we", including great scientific interest and knowledge. Such people have my highest respect!
But I understand your questions very well.

I'm also wondering about this: Next time those with phantom pains also have to prove, that they have phantom pains. Well, Rama can do the job easily now.
I do know that a person can fake pain, as one guy that had been getting insurance money, had been found to have been doing once the company hired a private detective to verify that. Also we can find some who are prone to hypochondria, and can feel pain in their brain, as though it were in some part of the body, but the body would not be sending the signals for pain to the brain--it was made in the brain. So if a person claims to have a pain somewhere--missing limb or not--we should verify (in certain cases) if that person is telling the truth or not, and then (especially in cases of phatom limbs...where the limb is not there even) check out the brain mappings.
I do not see what this really has to do with testing for paranormal phenomena.

A lot, because also there are fakes and real ones, and what I meant with Rama is simply, he and his kind will manage to sort this out, exactly, mindmapping, which I would not fear at all. I am not a liar, I find lieing very uncomfortable, it would make me sick too. And I do trust Rama, for example, because he definitely is no ignorant towards the real thing at all, in contrary. He is consciously going for the "not yet known" and lets everybody know this. So far, I have for example also never heard him using the word para normal, for whatsoever. And syn falsely once belonged into that field in common western understandings (probably still does around Randi, its no theme over there, for example). Not that he is searching for "paranormal activities", but he is far from being even half as closeminded as many over at Randis, and thus he found the door. Rama is also an open window with lots of fresh air and wonderfull inspirations. I really go for him, he is our man.

Randi is Groucho at best. And such Grouchos make me feel sick, honestly, I have seen him many times in videos and TV, his underlying agressions are absolutely witchhunter, fueled by a kind of jealousy. I cannot digest them. And I am glad, that I can't.
Honestly!

 

[sabro]

Randi and others like him recognize the tricks mentalist and psychics use...

What upsets people like Randi is that these people, like Uri Geller, rip others off. It isn't harmless trickery. It is fraud and medical malpractice. They do real harm to careers to the health and well being of those that sacrifice not only their money, but their time, families, friends and health to these charlatans.

Other than that, why should someone with "paranormal" abilities object to a little scientific scrutiny. After all it should stand up to a little examination... there should be something objectively, materially, measurable about these special powers... and they should jump at the opportunity to prove themselves... right?

 

[Annubis]

here's a good test to see if you can speak to etheric beings... hehe... or plants rather... and if they can hear you! Go to the NTT ICC (NTT InterCommunication Center [ICC]) in Tokyo before the 17th of February. There is a wonderful interactive installation called "Botanical Ambulation Training". If you speak to the plants they may move toward you... hehe... though I don't know exactly how effective the installation is, I was very impressed. I spent maybe 15 minutes cooing to those cute little plants on hydrolic legs.

 

[Mars Man]

I think we will find that speaking to plants, and getting reactions from the plants, would not fall under a paranormal definition either. The reason being, that we can pretty much rest assured that we know the basic cause and affect--thus making it normal, rather than 'para' plus normal--meaning, basically, 'beside' normal.

The voice has vibration which can affect both plant cell activity, as well as ice formation. Also, plants will be attracted to carbon dioxide sources (which comes with speaking, in a steady stream) as they will to light sources.

So, while it would not make for paranormal event, it is, indeed interesting. In the human mind, we can visualize it as a 'bonding' that is taking place (since our brains work towards bonding) and that can create emotional highs...which, in turn, are more usually good chemically--for us. I enjoy speaking to plants too, but am lazy to talk to my cactus over in my studio. I'll try to make a note of that, and do it more often. Thanks !

 

[Mitsuo]

I would first like to add that I recognize Mars Man's intentions to let the Randi issue go. But I feel that I need to respond to a post directed towards me, if it's okay to do so. I definitely don't want to "poison" Tsuyoiko's thread with irrelevant material and I would also like to make sure that Mars Man doesn't have to do too much work making sure that this thread, and others, are moderated properly. We should try our best to help him out and post in a mannerly order.

Sorry, you are talking too much out of Randi's view, I had this kind of thing for months at the RD forum and elsewhere.

I have to say, I'm not sorry for talking about Randi's view.

The reasons:
1.) You kept responding to my posts on Randi. If you had just simply asked me to not mention Randi, I would have been happy to oblige.

2.) Whether you like him or hate him, he plays a significant role in this subject area. His views, not him, are in fact relevant to this thread.

3.) When a subject like this is brought up, one has to expect a response like mine. So whether it be the RD forum, this forum, or elsewhere, opinions will be expressed in a way that you like or don't like.

There are so many things, that I do not wish to repeat endlessly, if I get the feeling, that someone does not want to understand. maybe you have a look first, what we wrote befrore, for example how we definréd para-normal?

To be quite honest, I really have a hard time understanding some of your sentences. So if I ask for an explanation, I shouldn't get the same response. Patience is necessary, especially during a discussion amongst two people from different countries. So expect repeating yourself. You say that you get the feeling that I don't want to understand. I understand clearly about this subject and the differing views associated with it. By me understanding your term of paranormal, which I do and even acknowledged, does not change anything. My point remains the same regardless. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I am sick and tired to have to go via Sylvia over and over, although I said clerly, what I think about her. There are many other things, that you also ignore and that have been written already here.

I mention Sylvia not to argue against you, but to argue for Randi's cause. I have not ignored anything. The problem may lie in my understandings of your posts. No offense, but at times they don't make sense and contain too many fragments. It seems as though you rush through them. Maybe it's just me who has this problem while reading your posts. I truly am trying to make an attempt to have a sound discussion with you.

I suggest, you go to the Randi forum or the RD forum for this kind of talk

So I should go to a different forum to talk about the same topic which has been displayed on this thread? Once someone starts to challenge your view, you suggest that that person go to another forum? That is definitely not a solution.

Your view is not mine nor that of others who have made according experiences.

??
Never said so, nor have I ever thought that. Not too sure what this means...

And your media-view is, sorry to say, a bit naive. I happen to know a bit about it, and am not interested in giving any lessons.

Let's get this clear. I don't think I know everything. I don't, necessarily, think that my views are always correct. But I will continue to support them until someone provides me with a better arguement. To call my view naive is a bit naive, don't you think? If you know something, wouldn't you rather share? I don't even know what you mean by "the media". I refer you to my misunderstandings of your sentences.
You're not interested in giving lessons, but you expect people to understand everything to your level of understanding regarding the media? How, then, do you expect to get your message across? So if you know more about this media perspective than I do, then I ask you to share. But please, don't rush your typing. I need to be able to read what you typed. Also, define your words. When you kept referring to the Media, based off of how you typed it, I thought you meant Sylvia Browne, Uri Geller, and similar "entertainers". I definitely should have been more diligent in getting definitions. So that is also my fault.

Also you several times forget to look back, to see, what you just wrote, and I was referring to. That does not get us anywhere, you just confuse things.

I'm sure you'll know my answer to this....I was confused with your posts. Trust me, I attempted to make the connections. Your post that attempts to get rid of me, the one in which I am currently quoting you on, is actually legible and many other of your posts are too. But many of your posts during our interactions were very hard to read. Everyone makes mistakes in their posts.

Please look for another partner or forum for this.

It's as simple as you not responding back. You made yourself my partner in this exchange. I don't apologize for any of the my views that I presented. However, I do want to apologize to you if I came off as rude or arrogant. I am not writing in anger, jealousy, etc., but rather passion. I am passionate about thinking critically. My emotions remain neutral while I write to you. I will write my opinions, but it's the other person that interprets it as hostility or peaceful. I can assure you that it wasn't in hostility. I don't blame you for thinking so if you did. I know exactly what you mean when you say that the people on Randi's Forum are rude. I have read their posts to other people and they are rude and arrogant. I don't know, maybe I need to put more smiley faces and emoticons in my posts.

I hope this helps.

Also, I am very open-minded. But being open-minded is never an excuse to believe anything in the absence of thoughtful analysis.

 

[Mitsuo]

By the way Chi65, I think that you are a very nice woman and hope to have better interactions with you in the future.

 

[Mars Man]

Point taken, and argument given allowance. Thanks for the consideration expressed in the style and format.

Now, with that, I'd hope to see specific and more fully laid out examples regarding any investigations, claims, or charges given by Mr. Randi against whomever may have made claims of some paranormal event or professed ability to cause such events.

Therefore, if, for example, any of you may have a specific point in case, I would greatly appreciate it if you could carefully lay out all the details please:

for example, who made what claim, and what exactly, in precise terms, what that claim was, and the evidences for that claim, along with any third party review and/or comment. Then, the counter claim made by, for example (for now) James Randi or any debunkers or sceptics, along with the details of that counter claim, the precise and exact explanation, along with data and any third party reviews and/or comment.​

Then, presentation of your argument, in as careful a layout as can be done, would follow that. Thus would be a good example of a true Serious Discussion sub-forum. I hope all will take heed of this, and keep it in mind as we go. Thanks !

At the moment, (as per my #32 post above) we have not come to any agreement on the definition of the term, so I will presently present one:

*By paranormal we mean a state or event, the structure, status, and/or cause or outcome of which can not be understood in any empirical manner at the moment, to any degree.​

It is for the reason of this definition--which seems to me to be as good, if not slightly better than the average--that matters such as phantom limbs, plants' reactions to human speaking, hyper-conduction (if that is the correct term), or a number of emotional reactions to subconsciously recorded sensory information, among others, are not paranormal events or states.

 

[Mavrek]

I have seen people with paranormal abilities and I do believe in paranormal abilities . I am not so blessed to have such ability in my self .

 

[Mitsuo]

I have seen people with paranormal abilities and I do believe in paranormal abilities . I am not so blessed to have such ability in my self .

That's cool Mavrek! What paranormal abilities have you witnessed?

So far Mars Man has defined paranormal.
"By paranormal we mean a state or event, the structure, status, and/or cause or outcome of which can not be understood in any empirical manner at the moment, to any degree."

I agree with this term.

So maybe your observations will fall into the same realm as his definition.

I would assume that paranormal would be like moving objects with your mind, flying without any apparatus or of course a plane (superman!), manipulation of other people's thoughts maybe? This could go on...