out: direction or place?

[nekocat]

This is from The Tale of Mr. Tod. Which does "out" in the sentence mean, 'direction' or 'place at which something happens'?

In other words, which is the case?

1.The place in which he rolled Mr Tod over was out at the door.[place]
2.He rolled Mr. Tod over, from inside the house to the outside at the door.[direction]​

...and he rolled Mr. Tod over and over like a log, out at the door.

 

[Kinsao]

Hmmmm, that is a really odd sentence! It's definitely not the usual way a native English speaker would use the word 'out'. Maybe it's a bit archaic or something. :? But anyway, having looked at it, I think it is #2 - that is, 'to the outside, through the door'. A more usual way of saying it (for a native speaker these days) would be 'out of the door'.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Usually 'out at the door' would mean 'outside where the door is', its quite simple, like そとにドアで。 In this case I'd agree the writer is trying to say that the act of exiting was done at the door (#2). Today someone might say 'out of the house' or just 'out the door'.

It sounds to me like you're reading Beatrix Potter books, which are written firstly in Br.Eng, so you'll get some disagreement with American/Canadian Eng. in some cases, and secondly those books are written a little bit peculiarly on purpose for colloquial effect.

 

[Sarapva]

"Out at the door" is a funny way of saying it. It sounds to me like he rolled Mr. Tod over outside in front of the door. But then it would make more sense to say, "... he rolled Mr. Tod over and over like a log, outside in front of the door." Unless there was a door by itself, somehow, outside, that he rolled Mr. Tod in front of.

 

[nekocat]

It sounds to me like you're reading Beatrix Potter books, which are written firstly in Br.Eng, so you'll get some disagreement with American/Canadian Eng. in some cases, and secondly those books are written a little bit peculiarly on purpose for colloquial effect.

Words such as "scutter" "round" "around" bothered me!
She seems to choose "round" from "around," but I couldn't find the rule of when to use one!

Unless there was a door by itself, somehow, outside, that he rolled Mr. Tod in front of.

I couldn't understand this, but thank you very much for helping me!

 

[Kinsao]

It's not directly relevant, but where an American would say "Out the door", a British English speaker would be more likely to say "Out of the door". There is no difference in meaning, though...

As for the "round/around" thing, "round" is basically just a contraction of "around" (technically speaking I suppose it should have an apostrophe, but no one would use it! - in the same way that nobody puts an apostrophe in front of "phone" as used for "telephone" ... ) So neither one is more right that the other and there isn't any rule on when/where/how to use them.

 

[Sarapva]

I couldn't understand this, but thank you very much for helping me!

This was just my own weird idea of a lone door by itself, not attached to a building. The sentence sounds a little like there's a "disembodied" door somewhere!

About "round" and "around": I've noticed that British speakers seem to use "round" where Americans would use "around". Example (British): "They went round the store, but couldn't find flip flops." (American): "They went around the store, but couldn't find flip flops (sandals that make a "flip flop" noise when you walk)."

 

[Charles Barkley]

I would go with your direction reading, that he is rolled out the door. But without context, pretty vague.

A side note, but do Brits use the term 'flip flops'? In Australia, they're thongs...though that certainly has a different meaning in American English.

 

[nekocat]

Thank you guys, reading your posts is more fun than anything else!

This is about all Beatrix Potter's work. I left it a cache version so that "round" and "around" are highlighted to be found easily.

In her work, there are only two instances of "around."
(1)

After a time he began to wander
about, going lippity--lippity--not
very fast, and looking all around.

(2)

he seemed to be
sniffing around.

The rest are all "round."
Do you think Beatrix Potter could have chosen "round" in place of "around" in (1) and (2)?☝

 

[Kinsao]

@ Charles: yes, we do talk about "flip flops" in England!

@ Neko: yes, "round" would mean the same thing as "around" in those sentences you've given. "Around" does flow better, though, which is probably why she chose it.

 

[nekocat]

I would go with your direction reading, that he is rolled out the door. But without context, pretty vague.
A side note, but do Brits use the term 'flip flops'? In Australia, they're thongs...though that certainly has a different meaning in American English.

I think you mean "sandals" by "thong", don't you?

@ Charles: yes, we do talk about "flip flops" in England!
@ Neko: yes, "round" would mean the same thing as "around" in those sentences you've given. "Around" does flow better, though, which is probably why she chose it.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Sarapva]

Maybe "around" sounds better at the end of sentences. The only sentence I can think of where I've heard "round" at the end is something like "We had a look round." This was by British speakers though - American speakers would say "around".

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Thank you guys, reading your posts is more fun than anything else!

This is about all Beatrix Potter's work. I left it a cache version so that "round" and "around" are highlighted to be found easily.

In her work, there are only two instances of "around."
(1)After a time he began to wander
about, going lippity--lippity--not
very fast, and looking all around.

(2)he seemed to be
sniffing around.

The rest are all "round."
Do you think Beatrix Potter could have chosen "round" in place of "around" in (1) and (2)?☝

In my experience, yes you could use `round in those two examples. But, there is a reason that she didn't, and it is as follows: (In my humble opinion!)

When you use "`round" as an abbreviation of "around" it carries with it the idea of going around something a little more tightly. It's a little closer to the idea of something being circular or repetitive. The whole idea of "around" can also mean going in circles, but, it's also commonly used with other expressions. e.g.

Have a look around the store.
I went downtown and walked around.

This usage has a slightly different idea behind it, as in, you are wandering or investigating the entirety of something but the purpose is not 100% clear. The direction is not necessarily a circle either, you could cross your own path many times. This is why in the examples you cited, the idea of searching or lacking a direct purpose is present. So in some examples, `round and 'around' are both okay, and in some examples 'around' communicates the idea of searching or going somewhere with a somewhat vague purpose.

Examples where you wouldn't pronounce the 'a' could include:

Merry-go-round
"The rabbit hopped `round the tree and surprised his friend"
"She wasn't clear, she spoke in a very roundabout way."

Examples where both are okay:

"I'm going `round/around the block."
"Shes down `round/around the river somewhere, go find her"

Examples where 'around' is better would include the ones I mentioned re: searching/looking, and the examples that you originally posted.

 

[nekocat]

BK, you're just excellent!

 

[quamp]

Back to the first question...
The "out at the door" is actually a dialetical thing that's somewhat common in the Southwestern USA. It usually means "towards."

 

[nekocat]

He made the most wonderful waistcoats for all the rich merchants of Gloucester, and for all the fine gentlemen of the country round.

This is from Tailor of Gloucester by Beatrix Potter.
http://www.santasearch.org/print_text.asp?RID=582
Which does "the country round" mean, (1) around the country, (2) all over the country?

 

[Geostigma]

My guess would be all over the country.