Noun+ない

kuritiusu · 24 Nov 2007

Is it ok to combine a noun with ない without using a particle like は or が?
例えば: 必要はない ----> 必要ない

davmandy · 25 Nov 2007

kuritiusu said:
Is it ok to combine a noun with ない without using a particle like は or が?
例えば: 必要はない ----> 必要ない

Standard Japanese would be 必要ではない or 必要ではありません

David Petersen
"Absolute Beginner's Guide to Hiragana" from Lulu Press

Elizabeth · 25 Nov 2007

davmandy said:
Standard Japanese would be 必要ではない or 必要ではありません
David Petersen
"Absolute Beginner's Guide to Hiragana" from Lulu Press

As kuritiusu-san already knows, 必要は・がない（ありません） is perfectly standard Japanese meaning "need to" and yes the particles do sometimes get left out (especially in song lyrics, casual conversation or the like). But it's important to know how the sentence gets structured grammatically so I don't think letting them go right away is a good practice for beginners to pick up on.

K-Young · 25 Nov 2007

kuritiusu said:
Is it ok to combine a noun with ない without using a particle like は or が?
例えば: 必要はない ----> 必要ない

In this case, が is often skipped when we speak. When you write, you should avoid this. But in the course of history, が between some particular noun and ない was so often skipped that it got a set phrase such as 申し訳（もうしわけ）ない、限り（かぎり）ない、心（こころ）ない, which are all in the dictionary.

AichiAlex · 25 Nov 2007

kuritiusu said:
Is it ok to combine a noun with ない without using a particle like は or が?
例えば: 必要はない ----> 必要ない

In spoken Japanese, が is skipped a lot, but not in all cases, so it's better to listen and observe to find out when it is and isn't used.

As for written Japanese, you should always use が, and if you are a beginner, then you should use が when speaking too, to help you remember Japanese correctly before you get into spoken Japanese.

Elizabeth · 25 Nov 2007

K-Young said:
In this case, が is often skipped when we speak. When you write, you should avoid this. But in the course of history, が between some particular noun and ない was so often skipped that it got a set phrase such as 申し訳（もうしわけ）ない、限り（かぎり）ない、心（こころ）ない, which are all in the dictionary.

Although looking now only at the case of 必要, because 必要ない is an adjective meaning "unnecessary" (same as 不必要な）、I haven't seen が left out in the verb position with tremendous frequency. It's just my opinion. But my ear isn't so good for loose conversation so it may well be something I've overlooked...

bakaKanadajin · 26 Nov 2007

When my Japanese friends and I are speaking casually (something I'm not very good at, I'm a real masu and mashita kind of guy) I have heard the が left out for quick answers to questions like 'Why don't you try this or that?' or 'Why don't you like that guy/girl?'

The answers is sometime: 興味ない although they could be speaking so fast I just miss the particle.

I guess maybe it's like saying 'No interest!' instead of 'I have no interest'.

Charles Barkley · 26 Nov 2007

Is there any reason everyone keeps saying ga instead of just 'particles'? Wa wo and others get left off too--best not to keep saying ga lest we confuse people who aren't familiar with particule use. Especially in the above problem, since 必要はない rolls off the tongue so much better.

Bakakanadajin= yes, people will often say 興味ない。 Its the same as something like, あなた、どこ行くの --> the particles just get dropped all the time in casual speech. It does not, however, add an apostrope to it--there is no additional emphasis. It is just contracted speech. If anything it is less emphatic; more emphatic would be 興味はない.

K-Young · 26 Nov 2007

What I said here is that in some cases the pattern without が makes itself one word. 心ない (heartless) is definitely 心ない, never 心がない. And 必要ない sounds OK to me both in spoken Japanese and in written, even formal, Japanese. It can be taken as one word.

But yes, for a beginner, が or は after a subject is a must!

Elizabeth · 26 Nov 2007

K-Young said:
What I said here is that in some cases the pattern without が makes itself one word. 心ない (heartless) is definitely 心ない, never 心がない. And 必要ない sounds OK to me both in spoken Japanese and in written, even formal, Japanese. It can be taken as one word.

So just to clarify, both these examples are no problem in written or spoken speech ?

Hitsuyou nai okane wo motte konaide kudasai. (必要ない As an adjective)

Okane wo motte kuru hitsuyou nai. (As a verb)

K-Young · 27 Nov 2007

I think so, and 99 % of us will say OK. For someone fussing over little grammar things, I'm not sure.

Elizabeth · 27 Nov 2007

K-Young said:
I think so, and 99 % of us will say OK. For someone fussing over little grammar things, I'm not sure.

どうもありがとう。今は、「文法」にはちょっとうるさい人を探しましょう。

Elizabeth · 28 Nov 2007

Charles Barkley said:
Is there any reason everyone keeps saying ga instead of just 'particles'? Wa wo and others get left off too--best not to keep saying ga lest we confuse people who aren't familiar with particule use.

Because that was the OP's chief concern. Besides which it was unintentionally too broad to begin with...

Bakakanadajin= yes, people will often say 興味ない。 Its the same as something like, あなた、どこ行くの --> the particles just get dropped all the time in casual speech. It does not, however, add an apostrope to it--there is no additional emphasis. It is just contracted speech. If anything it is less emphatic; more emphatic would be 興味はない.

Most emphatic I think would be 興味がない

Noun+ない

kuritiusu

蒼海の武王

davmandy

後輩

Elizabeth

先輩

K-Young

先輩

AichiAlex

先輩

Elizabeth

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bakaKanadajin

先輩

Charles Barkley

TNT Basketball Analyst

K-Young

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Elizabeth

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K-Young

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Elizabeth

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Elizabeth

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