No Foreigners Allowed!

yukio_michael said:

It's just that sometimes, going up against thousands of years worth of [Japan's] self-imposed isolation, you realise that you're like Sysyphus...

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Nice reference. And good point.

...you keep talking about it--- but nothing happens, nothing will change unless there is an open dialogue (in Japanese) with the people of Japan... and I don't think they wan't that dialogue.

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Some do, though. Today I got a new student from Japan, and one of the first things she wanted to know was if the U.S. high school education system wanted to omit all the bad things we've done, like slavery, the Trail of Tears, and the Indian Wars. And she wanted to talk about how she disagreed with her government sweeping things like Nanking under the rug.

I know that these people are a minority in Japan, but they are there. Maybe we need to speak for their ears, even if everyone else's ears are closed.

japan is slowly changing except crisis.
it is as same as human body.
It dies for the virus if the antibody doesn't exist.

GodEmperorLeto said:

I said it was justified. It's my opinion. By the way, you forgot how I said that it wasn't correct and that it was discrimination.

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No I didn't forget anything. I commented on your use of the word justified, because I disagreed with you. What happened to our grandfathers 60 years ago, is NOT jusitification for treating someone born 40 years later as if it was their fault.

Try looking up "justify" in the dictionary. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you should act like a jerk. That makes you just as guilty of intolerance as all the discriminators you lambast.

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I'm assuming the first sentence ("the dictionary") was an ignorant attempt to patronize me, which would have been fine if it had a shred of credability. But since clearly you were too stupid to check for yourself, let me provide the definition for you.

Justify: to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable
(Source: Merriam-Webster)

And yet you yourself said that such behaviour wasn't correct, and was [racial] discrimination. Both of these are usually considered UNreasonable, wrong, and INjust, so you've managed to completely contradict yourself.

And your "20-something, born 40 years after" comment was a logical fallacy called a "red herring" specifically of the emotional appeal type.

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It's scarcely bearable to read your comments sometimes, they're so badly misinformed. Do you even understand the meaning of some of the words you throw around? It's a perfectly acceptable question to ask if someone born 40 years after atrocities ended should be held accountable for the crimes of their ancestors. It's not emotional; it's not a red herring, it's certainly not a logical fallacy. For pity's sake if you're going to try and construct an intelligent sounding argument, at least take your own advice and check the terms you use.

Besides, if you want to get emotional,

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Err.. as I pointed out, I didn't... but let's continue your drivel anyway...

you weren't at Nanking, you weren't in Korea, you have no right to stand in judgement either, especially if the shopowner lived through it. So you should get off your high horse.

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If there's one thing I dislike more than idiots, it's idiots who twist what they said before to fit their current agenda. But then you'd never do that because you hate revisionist historians. Let me quote you again:

I'd say Chinese storeowners have a right to refuse them service.

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Where did you say anything about living through Nanking or Korea? You just said "Chinese storeowners" period. Nowhere do I see me standing in judgement on someone who lived through the Nanking massacre.

Oh, and by the way, you do live in my reality.

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No really, believe me, I don't. Your "reality" is a figment of your imagination.

[Whether or not you choose to bury your head in the sand is up to you,

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Eh? What are you talking about. I don't even understand who you're talking to now.

but discrimination, prejudice, and hatred is everywhere in the world. I didn't make it this way, but I recognize it for what it is.

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And your point is, other than trying to big yourself up?

As a white, Christian, heterosexual male living in the United States I am constantly reminded of how everything bad in history is my fault, and how I owe everyone everything.

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I consider myself accountable for my actions, and mine alone. I sympathise with people who have suffered at the hands of my 'people', but I'm not carrying their guilt.

It's probably where he gets most of it.
Too darn many.
Dingdingding! Bingo! Get that man a PBR!

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Have you lost the plot? Who are you talking to?

GodEmperorLeto said:

It's probably where he gets most of it.
Too darn many.
Dingdingding! Bingo! Get that man a PBR!

Stinger said:

Have you lost the plot? Who are you talking to?

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Check his post. Who he's replying to is shown in the quote box above, where it says "originally posted by X." None of them are you.

Let's please try to refrain from personal attacks.

GodEmperorLeto said:

Today I got a new student from Japan, and one of the first things she wanted to know was if the U.S. high school education system wanted to omit all the bad things we've done, like slavery, the Trail of Tears, and the Indian Wars.

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Why do you limit the list within your own country? They've done more than that to "others", and it's still on-going.

I'm wondering why a country with "supposedly" a better education system can do so much aggression to others, and it's still on-going. :?

Did they learn any lesson from their history education?

osias said:

Why do you limit the list within your own country? They've done more than that to "others", and it's still on-going.

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Victims are more likely to speak out and be heard about it if it's an international thing. The American government, or any government for that matter, can easily suppress domestic issues in terms of international exposure if they were truly determined to do so. American Indians are also an unusual case, with their exempt status from many requirements/privileges of American citizens while living on land set aside within the borders of a sovereign nation.

I'm wondering why a country with "supposedly" a better education system can do so much aggression to others, and it's still on-going.

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Irrelevant. Educational systems have almost nothing to do with morals or ethics. Often it's just the acquisition of elementary levels of data, which has nothing to do with aggression, imperialism, or any other act a government may engage in.

Thanks, one more question to MeAndroo. Being both Chinese and Japanese, are you an aggressor or a victim?

Haha, that question invokes odd feelings. Having spent time in Japan, and speaking the language to some extent makes me feel closer to that side. I'd say I probably side more with the victim mentality if only because my father grew up in Hawaii during Pearl Harbor, and some of his friends were interned in camps here on the mainland. I'm sure it was tough for them to be targeted by both sides, and that's who I sympathize with.

Then again, I'm 100% American. I don't define myself as Chinese or Japanese by nationality, only ethnicity. I see the world through an American's eyes, and though I've had the good fortune to live outside my home country for a period, will do so for the rest of my life. As such, I never really feel like a victim. I don't agree with many of the aggressive international political tactics used by my government past and present, so I don't feel like an aggressor either.

Maybe I took the question too seriously. I'll just say this: my Chinese American mom is much more aggressive than my Japanese American dad

Add1cti0n, as long as you do not frequent bordellos and the like, you should not encounter too many "No Foreigners" signs. Just so you know, the signs shown in the clip are definitely from brothels, bath-houses, etc. places of "intimate contact" so to speak.

One of the most persistent justification for this "foreigner exclusion" policy is simply because of the underlying ignorance that foreigners (esp, Westerners and blacks) frequently carry with them venereal diseases, like HIV/AIDS. However a sobering fact is that, in most industralised nations (including Japan), there is an increasing incidence of HPV (papilloma) and HSV - herpes infections, both incurable, life-long diseases. These chronic diseases are now ravaging the young in many Western countries (e.g. 1-in-3 under 30 infection rates) with expected fertility problems in the not-so distant future.

Another reason given is that most foreigners don't know Japanese etiquette or speak Japanese, thus, potentially creating huge misunderstandings.

While it is not exactly a fair thing, these signs should pose no problems if you are/look east Asian and can speak some Japanese - according to many of my conference attending colleagues. Mimicry at its best?

I never came across those "warning signals" for Gaijin. Only once though, I wasn`t allowed to enter a bar near Tennoji Station in Osaka.
I was heading back home with a friend of mine and decided to go for a drink before hitting the hay. The place was very small, there was a guy at the door that told us it was closed, but there were people at the counter and at the tables...

He gave us some stickers (?), saying: I`m sorry we are closed, please take these stickes as a miyage, and sorry again for the inconvenience.

I wasn`t too sure about that. We ended up going to a conbini opposite to the bar and when we passed by the bar again, we saw some Japanese being allowed to the place.

I felt a bit disappointed about it, but didn`t really bother me that much, since that was the only time I experienced "racism" in Japan.

MeAndroo said:

Haha, that question invokes odd feelings. Having spent time in Japan, and speaking the language to some extent makes me feel closer to that side. I'd say I probably side more with the victim mentality if only because my father grew up in Hawaii during Pearl Harbor, and some of his friends were interned in camps here on the mainland. I'm sure it was tough for them to be targeted by both sides, and that's who I sympathize with.

Then again, I'm 100% American. I don't define myself as Chinese or Japanese by nationality, only ethnicity. I see the world through an American's eyes, and though I've had the good fortune to live outside my home country for a period, will do so for the rest of my life. As such, I never really feel like a victim. I don't agree with many of the aggressive international political tactics used by my government past and present, so I don't feel like an aggressor either.

Maybe I took the question too seriously. I'll just say this: my Chinese American mom is much more aggressive than my Japanese American dad

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Thanks!

The question is meant to be odd.

The only kind of signs i've seen have said "no foreigners without a japanese escort" it was at some clubs and a few bars.

lu_bu1977 said:

One of the most persistent justification for this "foreigner exclusion" policy is simply because of the underlying ignorance that foreigners (esp, Westerners and blacks) frequently carry with them venereal diseases, like HIV/AIDS. However a sobering fact is that, in most industralised nations (including Japan), there is an increasing incidence of HPV (papilloma) and HSV - herpes infections, both incurable, life-long diseases. These chronic diseases are now ravaging the young in many Western countries (e.g. 1-in-3 under 30 infection rates) with expected fertility problems in the not-so distant future.

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Actually it's the Japanese youngsters themselves that carry those diseases and have no proper education about sex or how to use a condom.

Check out this thread please : AIDS and other STDs on rise in Japan

Riyko said: The only kind of signs i've seen have said "no foreigners without a japanese escort" it was at some clubs and a few bars.

True, but let me assure you that discrimination against foreigner entry to "adult" businesses is quite prevalent. Perhaps due to potential legal problems, signs are not used quite as often anymore. Some times, only upon physical entry into the premise (shop) will you learn from the receptionist that entry is prohibited. An Asian friend entered a couple of shops without the "no foreigners" signs only to have the receptionists there speak in a flurry of Japanese and then if no timely response back in Japanese, the engrish words "solly(sic), no follanners(sic).." or something to that effect. Fortunately(?), he still managed to get in after piping a few words back.

RockLee said: Actually it's the Japanese youngsters themselves that carry those diseases and have no proper education about sex or how to use a condom.

It is a fact that the public health authorities there are extremely conservative and most likely downplay these kinds of problems. In the very near future, that will have serious repercussions to public health. However, Western public health authorities are more forthcoming. It is widely established that in industralised Western countries, like Australia for example, incurable STDs, such as HSV infections are so increasingly widespread among the young that such STDs are now deemed to be a "silent" epidemic. Obviously, this will fuel the existing phobia, and the Japanese will remain leery of Westerners even though the said diseases might be ravaging their own population. These diseases will continue to be thought of as unique to Westerners. It is very likely that a greater discrimination will result when the Japanese health authorities finally come clean about infection rates. Of course, Westerners might become convenient scape-goats, who knows?

For more info, click on the link:
6: Sexually transmitted infections: new diagnostic approaches and treatments

lu_bu1977 said:

Add1cti0n, as long as you do not frequent bordellos and the like, you should not encounter too many "No Foreigners" signs. Just so you know, the signs shown in the clip are definitely from brothels, bath-houses, etc. places of "intimate contact" so to speak.

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There have been cases of "no foreigners" signs in real estate agencies as well, although I haven't seen them myself (but I was told that they wouldn't serve me because I was a foreigner, even accompanied by my wife).

Maciamo said:

There have been cases of "no foreigners" signs in real estate agencies as well, although I haven't seen them myself (but I was told that they wouldn't serve me because I was a foreigner, even accompanied by my wife).

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When I was here last year, the people at the real estate agency said to us, that it would be difficult to get a house with them, because I was a foreigner. and yes the same as you , even accompanied by the wife.

Maciamo said: There have been cases of "no foreigners" signs in real estate agencies as well, although I haven't seen them myself (but I was told that they wouldn't serve me because I was a foreigner, even accompanied by my wife).

Hmmm... this confirms some of my beliefs. I have heard from my senior colleagues that in general, Western-appearances do play a significant part in the discrimination, somehow. Interestingly, I have had many friends who are of east Asian descent, not encountering as much social difficulties as their caucasian counterparts. As a matter of fact, some of my anglo-saxon colleagues have mastered more Japanese than them, yet faced greater discrimination.

I guess the assumption here is that there might be a rising tide of ethnocentric, nationalism. Hence, Japanese wife notwithstanding. To be fair, I was brought up in Australia and I am for all intents and purposes, an Australian. But being of largely east asian descent has certainly exposed me to some very persistent realities of covert and sometimes overt racism and glass-ceilings from a young age.

I guess the situation in Japan is more overt for non-asians. I agree with another poster here that minorities tend to be subjected to ill-treatment in any largely racially-homogenous society. This is especially if your appearance sticks out like a sore-thumb. You can change your accent, your dressing and your mannerisms, but you can't change your physical appearance much, unless you take the Michael Jackson route. ;-)

Sadly, most first impressions are superficially-derived and play to preconceived notions.

I have heard many stories of foreigners with Japanese spouses who had to send them out apartment/house-hunting on their own, because the likelihood of a foreigner getting a good apartment (even when they are married to a native) is low.

From what I've heard, the real-estate agents will say that this is not something they can control, just a preference of the landlord (and neighbors). This strikes me as a disappointing ignorance on the behalf of those who flat-out refuse foreigners because of whatever stereotypes they have. A foreigner who has managed to behave himself/herself long enough to marry a Japanese person shouldn't make that bad a neighbor, but the belief that the mere presence of a foreign resident in an apartment building somehow reduces the quality, purity, value, or peacefulness of the living space is a disheartening.

nice gaijin said:

I have heard many stories of foreigners with Japanese spouses who had to send them out apartment/house-hunting on their own, because the likelihood of a foreigner getting a good apartment (even when they are married to a native) is low.

From what I've heard, the real-estate agents will say that this is not something they can control, just a preference of the landlord (and neighbors). This strikes me as a disappointing ignorance on the behalf of those who flat-out refuse foreigners because of whatever stereotypes they have. A foreigner who has managed to behave himself/herself long enough to marry a Japanese person shouldn't make that bad a neighbor, but the belief that the mere presence of a foreign resident in an apartment building somehow reduces the quality, purity, value, or peacefulness of the living space is a disheartening.

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Sad but true. It is disheartening but times are changing, there are many places that formerly refused entry from "gaijin" but the economic situation has forced many to rethink their business practices.

When it hits the business in the pocket book practices change quickly.

The Phillipino trainees I have mentioned several times on this forum are getting kicked out of the apartment they have been living for almost a year now. (Thereby our company is remodeling the second floor of one of the factory buildings for them to live in now.)

The reason, from what I heard, is they stay up until late at night and play music, sing and dance real loud. (not every night, but many times) . They don't follow the city rule of sorting the garbage into several groups of materials and the rules of the day to put out the garbages on the spot the garbage truck picks them up.

The rule is something like:
Monday - plastic garbage
Tuesday - burnable garbage
Wednesday - cans and bottles
and so on....

The owner of the apartment said their neighbours have complained about those problems many times and he talked to our president about it but the problems weren't solved.

Well, it was their fault and also ours (the company), I really think we should have visited their apartment sometimes and see if they have fully understand the rule and also if they have been doing alright. (We did hand them the booklet about the rule written in English but just giving it them wasn't enough, we now realized.)

And about their loud parties at night, well, they are all young guys on their 20's, so we should have expected their occasional binge drinking and should have chosen not-too-quiet-invironment to live, or we should have told them what they should and should not do in details at first.

Anyway, what I'm really worried about now is:
The owner, who was at first open minded and welcomed those "gaijin", might now have a generalized idea, which is that "All the gaijin stay up late and make binges and they never follow the garbage rule."

It sure is wrong to do to generalize like this only after seeing how 5 young Phillipino guys were, but who can stop him? Renting his apartments to people is his business, he sure doesn't want his business to go bad, right? Then he probably will try to avoid every risk he could think of such as the current inhabitants get angry and leave his apartment and spread the rumor about the problems there and no one will come and rent them any more.... I assume those places that have "no gaijin" signs have more or less experienced some kind of problem caused by non-Japanese people.

Lastly, I admit that there are of course lots of troublemakers who are Japanese. The reason Japanese shop or apartment owners tend to make such a generalized idea about gaijin so easily must have something to do with our usJapanese-themgaijin-two-totally-different-things-that-will-never-mix opinion.

Awwww, sorry my English sucks! (If you find what is not understandable, please tell me, I will write in Japanese and ask someone to translate.)

I get what you're saying, Kyoko. You're more eloquent than you credit to yourself.

The situation with your coworkers is exactly the kind of experience that reinforces the stereotypes that gaijin don't know how to behave themselves and "be a good neighbor." The garbage, the music, the noise, the language problem, it all factors into a negative experience that is likely to discourage landlords from giving gaijin a chance, whether they are Philipino, Indian, or American.

Kyoko_desu said:

The Phillipino trainees I have mentioned several times on this forum are getting kicked out of the apartment they have been living for almost a year now
...
The reason, from what I heard, is they stay up until late at night and play music, sing and dance real loud. The owner of the apartment said their neighbours have complained about those problems many times and he talked to our president about it but the problems weren't solved.
...
...
It sure is wrong to do to generalize like this only after seeing how 5 young Phillipino guys were, but who can stop him? Renting his apartments to people is his business, he sure doesn't want his business to go bad, right? Then he probably will try to avoid every risk he could think of such as the current inhabitants get angry and leave his apartment and spread the rumor about the problems there and no one will come and rent them any more.... I assume those places that have "no gaijin" signs have more or less experienced some kind of problem caused by non-Japanese people.

Lastly, I admit that there are of course lots of troublemakers who are Japanese. The reason Japanese shop or apartment owners tend to make such a generalized idea about gaijin so easily must have something to do with our usJapanese-themgaijin-two-totally-different-things-that-will-never-mix opinion.

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Actually, what you have mentioned is human-nature on the part of the landlords. As an example, mainland Chinese international students here in Australia are increasingly having a hard time getting private accomodations in the better suburbs because of incidences of them doing the following:
1) breaking lease prematurely
2) not observing noise-levels
3) not paying their bills before leaving
4) destroying the property with cigarette burns even though the no-smoking policy was in place
5) sub-letting and getting many unauthorised tenants into the property

Undoubtedly, these acts cumulatively erodes the trust the general Australian public has in the students of this nationality. Recently, we had a bunch of fee-paying international medical students from China who had a hard time getting a place of their own. This was the case, despite the fact that they were quite wealthy, considering that a medical degree here costs AUD$200,000+.

I guess words do travel and before you know it, generalisations occur.

Since it is suggested that by and large the "no-gaijins" signs are due to past transgressions by foreigners, in that case, are the Japanese likely to permanently disengage from contact with resident "gaijins"?

Sadly it is very natural for human beings to consider their own group superior to others, and consider others as being the same. (something called outgroup homogeneity effect)

In most civilizations this is frowned upon though, and laws prohibit discrimination and racism. Japan seems to be a exception unfortunately, and foreigners are still treated as outsiders.

It is not fair though to critisize Japan on this as if they are retarded; Japan has had a isolationistic policy for many many years, and intercultural relationships are still in the infancy stages. Every country has had their fair share of racist policies (Holland and Portugal started slave trade, and almost every Western country had participated in it) and it took them quite a while to come to senses.

Japan will change for the "better" (in my "westernized" view); the economic recovery Japan is experiencing is for a large part financed by foreign investors and entrepreneurs, and this will most likely affect Japan and its people's look on foreigners. I do not expect to experience any major changes during my lifetime though as I expect the changes to occur really really slow.

So yeah, for now foreigners are not welcome in some stores or have limited access to (financial) services, for doubtful reasons. I guess we would have to live with it, without losing faith; it is essential that Japan starts to see that some policies are ridiculous, and it is up to every one of us to stay critical but at the same time trying to respect their point of view.

leonmarino said:

...
...
Japan will change for the "better" (in my "westernized" view); the economic recovery Japan is experiencing is for a large part financed by foreign investors and entrepreneurs, and this will most likely affect Japan and its people's look on foreigners. I do not expect to experience any major changes during my lifetime though as I expect the changes to occur really really slow.
...

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Truth be told, in the face of rising ethnocentric nationalism I suspect it is going to get worse for identifiable "gaijins" in Japan. This is especially the case when the actual causes of failed or faltering (economic) policies require obfuscation. The foreigner bogey-man and "national security/nationalism" are among the most convenient distractions. Certainly, these are untenable positions for the long term.

Kyoko_desu said:

The reason, from what I heard, is they stay up until late at night and play music, sing and dance real loud. (not every night, but many times) . They don't follow the city rule of sorting the garbage into several groups of materials and the rules of the day to put out the garbages on the spot the garbage truck picks them up.

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From my own experience this is the main, although not the ONLY, reason why foreigners have a somewhat hard time renting an apartment or house. I have heard similar horror stories when living near a US Army base of GI's living off base who do the same things, wore shoes on tatami mats, play loud music and have loud binge drinking parties and generally trashed the place by Japanese standards. I heard the same stories when I was a student of how some foreign students, again not all, did similar things by not observing the local culture.

Anyway, what I'm really worried about now is:
The owner, who was at first open minded and welcomed those "gaijin", might now have a generalized idea, which is that "All the gaijin stay up late and make binges and they never follow the garbage rule."

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Unfortunately he/she will probably now be more hesitant to rent to foreigners because of this or completely stop renting to them altogether. And, as you said, he/she has to think about the "wa" of the other tenents and neighbors.

I was once brought into a bar in Yokohama by a Japanese friend of mine that had a "No foreigners allowed" sign outside after once being a regular hang out for some US Navy personnel. After being in there a while I asked the owner why and he replied to the effect that, although he had nothing against foreigners, some of the regulars that came to his place were loud and obnoxious, were sometimes rowdy, sometimes didn't have yen and wanted to pay in dollars, didn't speak Japanese, and would sometimes boo the karaoke singers when they became too drunk. Also, a few times shouting matches erupted and some of his regulars complained. Therefore, rather than risk losing his "bread and butter" customers he adopted the "No foreigners" policy as a matter of survival even though a few foreigners didn't cause any trouble.

I understood this and would probably have done the same thing if it threatened the survival of my business. It just goes to show how a few can spoil it for the many.

I've also witnessed the rowdiness of some foreigners (not only Americans mind you) in bars frequented by mostly foreigners in Tokyo and, in a way, it was embarrassing. There was a complete disregard for the other customers. It was all about them and I stopped frequenting those places myself.

Awwww, sorry my English sucks! (If you find what is not understandable, please tell me, I will write in Japanese and ask someone to translate.)

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Not in the least. Your English is very understandable. More so than some of the native speakers. I give you credit for keeping your own English level alive by participating in this forum. Besides, you bring a great Japanese perspective that is often lacking, and needed, on this board. Thanks.