Need translation from English to Romanji

[LastGringo]

I am speaking to a female (sigh). This should be informal. Could someone please translate this to Romanji:

"Why have you not spoken to me in Japanese yet? So far, I have spoken more Japanese than you! How can you expect me to be with you if you do not help me learn?"

Thanks everyone. By the way, is there an online dictionary or great book for Romanji? Better yet, is there a support group for yanks who fall in love with Japanese? I think I need one! Thanks again.

 

[TwistedMac]

romaji*

don't mind me.. i'm not good enough to translate that, it's just my pet peevee when people say romanji... cuz it's "romaji".. no n...

why are you pissed at a girl for not speaking japanese with you when you can't speak it well enough to make a simple sentence anyway? just wondering..

 

[LastGringo]

And all this time, I thought Romaji was a misspelling!

 

[Elizabeth]

why are you pissed at a girl for not speaking japanese with you when you can't speak it well enough to make a simple sentence anyway? just wondering..

And how are we expected to interpret the "how do you expect me to be with you...." line ? Does it make complete English sense first of all, in the way you were intending ? Is her only talent an ability to speak Japanese or is there something else as well....

 

[Glenn]

And all this time, I thought Romaji was a misspelling!

Well, at least we know you know how to spell "misspell."

 

[Scrivener]

Dictionary here: http://nihongo.monash.edu/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?1C
There's a thread about text books somewhere on this forum.

Let's change this thread to "Japanese Love Support Group".

(The following advice is just random ramblings and I don't mind if anyone flames me for it.)

I wonder what answer she will give to your question? Probably she finds it stressful, if her English is better than your Japanese. If I was you I would just learn some Japanese and speak to her. Then just ask her if you are making any mistakes. Be positive and save yourself an argument. In the long run that will be better.

The number one thing Japanese girls are scared of is "mama-con", or "mommy complex". That means guys who whine and complain and can't do anything for themselves, who expect the girl to be a housewife and replace the role their mother used to play for them. So my advice is be self-confident and make sure she is always having a good time.

On the positive side, one word that is always a compliment when a Japanese girl uses it about a guys is "yasashii". This is something I think lots of Japanese girls look for in a guy. This means kind and understanding, or maybe thoughtful and considerate.

Apart from that it depends on her relationship with Japanese culture. If she is accepting of Japanese culture, she may expect you to do well in your studies and your job, to pay attention to your appearance, and to make sure that others view you in a positive light. If she has problems with Japanese culture, she may view you as an escape in some way, whether rebelling or just being "exotic".

That's the only sort of general advice anyone can give without actually knowing the girl. Just working from stereotypes there, but there is a grain of truth in them sometimes...

 

[PaulTB]

"Why have you not spoken to me in Japanese yet? So far, I have spoken more Japanese than you! How can you expect me to be with you if you do not help me learn?"

How about a simple
日本語でください。 nihongo de kudasai.
after she says something simple to you in English.

 

[Pox]

"Why have you not spoken to me in Japanese yet? So far, I have spoken more Japanese than you! How can you expect me to be with you if you do not help me learn?"

何で君はいつまで経っても僕に日本語で話し掛けてくれないの？
僕は今まで君よりも沢山日本語を話してきたんだよ。
もし君が僕に日本語を教えてくれないのなら、
どうして君は僕と一緒に居られると思うの？

"nande kimi wa itumade tattemo boku ni nihongo de hanashi kakete kurenaino?boku wa imamade kimi yori mo takusan nihongo wo hanashite kitandayo.
moshi kimi ga boku ni nihongo wo oshiete kurenai no nara,
doushite kimi wa boku to issho ni irareruto omouno?"


これを日本語がわかる女性に言ったら、ぶん殴られるかもよ？ :?
ちなみに、第三文（how~~learn）は訳が間違ってるかも・・・。

 

[PaulTB]

これを日本語がわかる女性に言ったら、ぶん殴られるかもよ？ :?

それはそうでしょう。そのうえ、誰かが翻訳したのはバレバレですね。

 

[Scrivener]

何で君はいつまで経っても僕に日本語で話し掛けてくれないの？
僕は今まで君よりも沢山日本語を話してきたんだよ。
もし君が僕に日本語を教えてくれないのなら、
どうして君は僕と一緒に居られると思うの？

"nande kimi wa itumade tattemo boku ni nihongo de hanashi kakete kurenaino?boku wa imamade kimi yori mo takusan nihongo wo hanashite kitandayo.
moshi kimi ga boku ni nihongo wo oshiete kurenai no nara,
doushite kimi wa boku to issho ni irareruto omouno?"


これを日本語がわかる女性に言ったら、ぶん殴られるかもよ？ :?
ちなみに、第三文（how~~learn）は訳が間違ってるかも・・・。

Yes, I also think this would not get a positive reaction, Pox.

As for （how~~learn）, back translating into English gives "if you aren't going to teach me Japanese, how can we stay together?" which I think is right. It might get the reaction "OK, lesson one is 'sayonara'!"

 

[LastGringo]

Let me explain...

Thank you for your advice everyone... Let me explain. I have been talking with her for almost a year. She has not spoken any Japanese at all, which I find quite amazing. Her English is very advanced. Many times, I have broached the subject of her helping me learn some Japanese but she balks everytime! I know many basic phrases and I want to start taking classes soon. Recently I got her to agree to help me learn. But when I speak to her in Japanese, she basically ignores me and responds in English.

She says that she loves English and loves talking to a "foreigner". She says that she finds me "fascinating". In a way, I feel like an animal on display in a zoo. She also says that she loves me and cries often on the phone. When I tell her that we should try communicating in her native language, she says that she prefers English and to forget about Japanese because it is too hard. She has no interest in coming to the United States. She wants me to live with her in Japan. I am a little suspicious.

I am a former tesol teacher. In the past, I have had people befriend me for the free English lesson. I think all tesol teachers have gone through this experience. I want to believe that her feelings are genuine, but sometimes I feel that she loves my language and my culture more than she loves me.

 

[okaeri_man]

yes, you will find 20% of japanese people** who want to talk to you have what i call Japanese-itis. even if you ask them a question in japanese, they will answer in english. even if you continue to talk to them in japanese, they will reply in english. it just gets to the point of being absurd. in the case where they're already speaking to a friend in japanese and you try and join in, they will most likely complement you on your japanese in english.

dude, do what i do and ignore these people! they are seriously not worth it. seriously!

She wants me to live with her in Japan. I am a little suspicious.

suspicious! well that's one was of putting it. insane is another.


**may not be accurate

 

[Elizabeth]

When I tell her that we should try communicating in her native language, she says that she prefers English and to forget about Japanese because it is too hard. She has no interest in coming to the United States. She wants me to live with her in Japan. I am a little suspicious.

And how useful or satisfying could it possibly be to communicate over the phone with someone still at the basic phrases level ? :?

 

[PaulTB]

And how useful or satisfying could it possibly be to communicate over the phone with someone still at the basic phrases level ? :?

Well it depends. It wouldn't kill to say "もしもし" at the start

Various other bits could be done in Japanese even to someone at a very low level.

That said I don't think teaching either language is a good basis for a relationship.

 

[LastGringo]

We mostly write letters and IM chat. We do not just talk on the phone. I do not expect her to be my Japanese teacher. I am just surprised that she hasn't used any Japanese with me at all. I think sharing a little of her language would not hurt. It has been almost a year of communication and I find it odd.

A few times already I have asked her to write some Japanese to me in her letters, since this is easier for me to figure out (rather than say it on the phone). But she never has, even though I often include Japanese phrases and whole sentences in my letters to her. We write to each other about 2 times a week. She always responds in English and never uses any Japanese in letters, over IM or the phone. I feel ignored.

 

[Elizabeth]

A few times already I have asked her to write some Japanese to me in her letters, since this is easier for me to figure out (rather than say it on the phone). But she never has, even though I often include Japanese phrases and whole sentences in my letters to her. We write to each other about 2 times a week. She always responds in English and never uses any Japanese in letters, over IM or the phone. I feel ignored.

It does sound a bit dodgy if you're confident in your understanding of the language (so far) and that she is understanding what you're trying to say. Unclear romaji, though, in can be a real hassle to decipher and possibly embarrassing for her to correct in the context of a friendship.

 

[PaulTB]

Unclear romaji, though, in can be a real hassle to decipher and possibly embarrassing for her to correct in the context of a friendship.

I agree entirely. It can be tricky even for English speakers correcting the English of Japanese penpals. Too little or too much can be equaly 'deadly'.

That shouldn't stop her using a bit of Japanese herself - although maybe she also hates to _write_ romaji. I can apprechiate* that.

* Even if I can't spell apprechiate.

 

[LastGringo]

Wait a minute, I told her that she doesnt have to use romaji. She could use anything she wants!!!

Should she just continue ignoring my requests like I am invisible? Is that not rude? She has been ignoring me for months! It's like I am talking to a brick wall.

She doesn't want to speak a word of Japanese, not even single words or small basic phrases.

I help her with her English all of the time. She often asks me questions about English words, grammar, etc. Sigh.

 

[bentenmusume]

Honestly, it sounds like there's a good possibility that she's just using you for your English. That's not to say that she's an evil person (she may not even be doing it intentionally), but the fact that she's telling you that you should give up on Japanese because it's too "difficult" (despite the fact that she herself is studying English, which isn't exactly easy for a native Japanese speaker) and that she talks about your relationship in terms of being "fascinated" by talking to "a foreigner" seems like good evidence that you're not dealing with the most enlightened individual here. One would think that if she were really interested in you as a person, she'd be supportive of your desire to learn her language, especially if she's serious about wanting you to live with her in Japan (?? -- this sounds preposterous to me, though I have no idea how well the two of you know each other.)

Only you can decide if this girl is worth it or not, but if it were me, I'd rather have a friend/significant other with whom I can relate to on a deeper level as a human being than one in which the entire relationship is based on "Cool! I'm talking to (an American guy/a Japanese girl)!" But don't let yourself start thinking things like, "I should stick to my own kind" and the like. Just because this girl happens to be this way, it doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of Japanese out there who would be genuinely interested in getting to know you and helping you learn the language. Who knows, you might even be able to meet someone who couldn't care less about English.

In the meantime, you say you're interested in taking classes. This is a great idea. To be honest, I think that at the level you're at now -- if you only know a few basic sentences and phrases -- you could gain a lot more from a well-structured class than from asking a random native speaker to teach you things. There comes a point when talking to native speakers becomes the best thing you can do for your Japanese, but it sounds like you have a ways to go before you get there. For now, just study hard and don't let things like this discourage you. If you stay with it, eventually you'll get to a point where your Japanese is good enough that native speakers will find it just as, if not _more_ comfortable to speak to you in Japanese than in English, and nobody will be able to tell you that Japanese is too difficult for you to learn, because you'll already be living proof to the contrary.

Of course, this depends on just how motivated you are to learn the language, but that's something only you know the answer to.

 

[Scrivener]

Like JT says, I don't think it is cut and dried that she is consciously using you for your English. I would entertain the possibility that she finds talking with you in Japanese stressful or embarassing. It sounds like a "mental block" that might be related to "coping techniques" she is using to deal with having a relationship with a foreigner. (Sorry for the psychobabble.)

My advice would be to write to her as much as possible in Japanese only, and also to take a course or buy a textbook and try to improve your own Japanese. Don't criticize her or make any comments about it, just write as much as you can in Japanese, be patient, and maybe her block will dissolve as your Japanese gets better. If you confront her about it you might break the block, but it would probably take a major argument.

When in Japan in a business environment, I have occasionally come across people who insist on speaking English. Generally I let them do it - it shows that you have a big "hara", that you can accept not being top dog all the time. Now and again I will just drop in a complicated Japanese sentence, and once they realize that Japanese communication is possible, they often start to speak in both Japanese and English.

If she starts hassling you to speak more English, or if she loses interest in repsonding to letters written in Japanese, that will tell you a lot about the long-term prospects for the relationship...

 

[bentenmusume]

Yeah, I have to agree with what Scrivener says here.

In my experience, the best way to convince people to speak to you in Japanese is to show that you're capable of comfortably carrying on a conversation (yikes, alliteration overload) in the language. To a beginning learner, that may seem like a Catch-22 ("How can I get better at Japanese if nobody will speak it with me?!" is a perfectly understandable concern) but it really isn't, because there are plenty of other ways to improve your speaking fluency, especially at the early stages where you're still trying to get a grasp of basic grammar. At this point, a structured learning environment (like a college class) will do a lot more for your Japanese abilities than randomly trying to "pick up" the language from native speakers. (Not that it's impossible, but you'll find yourself having to re-invent the wheel all too often.)

I went through a phase myself where I got frustrated/depressed when people wouldn't speak to me in Japanese, but in the end I just sucked it up, kept studying, and took advantage of those opportunities I had with those people who would speak to me. Looking back on it now, it seems that once I stopped worrying about it, it was only a matter of time before I was pretty much speaking almost exclusively Japanese with nearly every Japanese person I knew. (Even some who I suspect might be more capable in English than I am in Japanese.) These days, it doesn't really bother me when the occasional person speaks to me in English, because I know that I have plenty of people to speak Japanese to, and that I'm capable of holding my own in the language when the situation calls for it. (...and that there are many situations in which my livelihood is dependent on being able to speak Japanese, and there are no other options.)

So I guess the best advice I can give you is to just keep up with your studies and make an effort to use what you're learning. As far as this girl goes, if you're concerned about her reaction, you can always ask in a non-confrontational way, along the lines of, "I can understand if you're not comfortable speaking to me in Japanese, but I want to at least try to use what I'm learning, so would you mind if I occasionally tried to write more to you in Japanese? It's okay if you want to respond in English." ...or something like that. If even the occasional good-natured attempt to use the language seems to bother her for some reason, then that's probably a good sign that she's only interested in you for your English and your "exoticness" as a foreigner, and probably (at least to me) suggests that you might be better off finding someone who you can relate to on a more meaningful level.

 

[LastGringo]

Thank you both very much. I think you are both right. I don't think she's a bad person. She has been very nice to me in the past. But I do think it is rude for her to keep ignoring my requests over and over again, or to dismiss me by telling me to forget Japanese because it's too hard.

I will confront her about it bluntly (I have been very patient already) and try to use as much Japanese as possible for now on. If she continues to evade the issue, then I will move on.

I wasn't interested in Japanese before all this. It's an interesting language. There are other languages I have studied, but nothing like Japanese. One thing that saddens me is the same story I keep hearing about how some Japanese people cannot accept the possibility of non-Japanese (especially Westerners) speaking their language. Perhaps this perception has something to do with their culture, but I find it very unfortunate if not replusive.

 

[Scrivener]

There is a whole field of "Nihonjin ron" (theories of Japaneseness) that some attribute to a post-WWII inferiority complex, which consists of pseudo-scientific theories of Japanese uniqueness. Now I think it is dying out, especially since there are foreigners speaking great Japanese on TV, etc.

I can think of a couple of examples from the manga "Crayon Shin Chan" - in one the family practices their English when going to Guam, only to find that the guy at customs speaks great Japanese, and in one or two other examples, foreigners are depicted as speaking Japanese that is fluent but extremely impolite. That's probably a comment on the state of the hospitality industry that is full of people that have "picked up" casual Japanese. There are also some hilarious ones about a foreigner intoxicated with "mystic Japan" who is ready to believe any load of cobblers about strange Japanese customs.

Maybe she doesn't literally believe it's impossible for you to learn Japanese, but is using that common "cliche" without really thinking about the facts. When you speak to Japanese people they often say "Japanese is a very difficult language, isn't it" almost like an article of faith, but they aren't flabbergasted that you are able to speak to them. It's like a cliche, but their actual behavior doesn't make you think it's that deeply held.

For the record I think Chinese is more difficult due to the pronunciation...

Japanese has pretty simple grammar, the main difficulty is politeness. Reading is difficult but far from impossible. Vocab is large but not as large as English, and kanji often give a clue to unknown words anyway.

 

[bentenmusume]

The kinds of attitudes reflected in Nihonjin-ron may indeed be gradually dying out, and the number of foreigners who speak fluent Japanese may be increasing, but I would imagine that there are still many Japanese (especially in the more rural areas) who have never personally met or spoken to a foreigner who is fluent in Japanese, and thus for whom the idea of speaking Japanese to Westerners is still a pretty foreign (no pun intended) concept. It's certainly nothing like in English-speaking countries, where nearly everyone just pretty much accepts that English is an international language spoken by people of all races and nationalities. For the most part, Japanese is still a language spoken primarily by the Japanese. A Western-looking person who can hold his/her own in Japanese is the exception, not the norm.

Because of this, you can't really hold it against people when they have these sorts of misguided attitudes -- it may seem "repulsive" (to borrow the original poster's word) to the Westerner who encounters it for the first time, but really people who think this way are simply basing it on what they've been told through the years, which in many cases has also been borne out by their personal experience. If you want to prove these people wrong (not that this should be your motivation for learning Japanese) the best thing you can do is make an effort to learn the language and talk to as many people as possible -- if you become living proof to these people that you can handle their language, that might go a long ways toward expanding their worldview. Of course, you're not going to change years and years of deeply-held beliefs about the difficulty and "uniqueness" of the Japanese language all by yourself, but I think the people who would continue to stubbornly insist that no foreigner could ever learn Japanese in the face of one who is actually speaking it to them would be few and far between.

Japanese has pretty simple grammar, the main difficulty is politeness. Reading is difficult but far from impossible. Vocab is large but not as large as English, and kanji often give a clue to unknown words anyway.

I've always thought that the most difficult part of Japanese (for me as a native English speaker) isn't the grammar or the kanji, or even politeness levels, so much as that ways of expressing things are often quite different from English. Idiomatic Japanese rarely corresponds closely with English, so in many cases, it's not enough to simply learn grammar and vocabulary, you also have to spend a good amount of time exposing yourself to authentic Japanese and learning (and imitating) the way native speakers express certain concepts. If you just learn the basic rules and try to piece together sentences with your native-English-speaker's intuition, lots of times you'll come up with things that -- while understandable -- would never really be uttered by a native Japanese speaker.

(This is more for the original poster than for Scrivener, who I'm sure already knows what I'm talking about, and probably even better than I do.)

 

[Scrivener]

I've always thought that the most difficult part of Japanese (for me as a native English speaker) isn't the grammar or the kanji, or even politeness levels, so much as that ways of expressing things are often quite different from English. Idiomatic Japanese rarely corresponds closely with English, so in many cases, it's not enough to simply learn grammar and vocabulary, you also have to spend a good amount of time exposing yourself to authentic Japanese and learning (and imitating) the way native speakers express certain concepts. If you just learn the basic rules and try to piece together sentences with your native-English-speaker's intuition, lots of times you'll come up with things that -- while understandable -- would never really be uttered by a native Japanese speaker.

That's true for all languages though. You just know if something "sounds right". A language like French might seem more familiar, but it also has loads of idiosyncratic ways of expressing common concepts and situations. Sometimes the more cliches you use, the more fluent you sound. For those going up the ranks of the Japanese Language Proficiency Test, this is a big deal at level one. The grammar text books are full of formulaic expressions, dozens of them, one or two per page.