My first post!

Greg777 · 16 Jan 2007

今晩は。私はゴレグです。日本語を習うこといます。
今、日本語を書くこと初めています。私が分かるできる？

Did that make any sense? Did I kana-ize my name correctly? Were my particles ok? In the fourth sentence, did I need to include 日本語 as a direct object of the こと phrase or can it be ommitted?

I've been studying about two weeks completely on my own and this is my first attempt at actual communication. I love japanese, it's very beautiful and expressive and I've been giving it quite a number of horus every day.

I have a ton of questions, but I'll only ask an urgent one for now. When reading, is it possible to determine if two consecutive kanji are part of a compound or just two consecutive words? Do you just have to get familiar with them to parse them correctly?

Thanks for your help!

Greg

PaulTB · 16 Jan 2007

Greg777 said:
When reading, is it possible to determine if two consecutive kanji are part of a compound or just two consecutive words?

The definition of "word" in Japanese is very fuzzy. There are many cases when it would be equally true to regard some characters as both two consecutive words with kanji and one compound word.

Take 女子学生. Female + student or Female student ? 女子 + 学生 or 女子学生 ?

Obviously there are words like 流行る where it is certainly not 流 + 行る or 今日 which can't be viewed as two words (今 + 日) but I don't think there are any short cuts. You just have to increase your vocabulary.

Elizabeth · 16 Jan 2007

今晩は。私はゴレグです。日本語を習うこといます。
今、日本語を書くこと初めています。私が分かるできる？
Did that make any sense? Did I kana-ize my name correctly? Were my particles ok? In the fourth sentence, did I need to include 日本語 as a direct object of the こと phrase or can it be omitted?

グレッグさんはじめまして。どうぞ宜しくお願いします。

It can be omitted. Simply 書くのは初めてです！分かりましたか？is super. Actually the entire paragraph I think is a really good effort for any beginner. Amazing. :bravo:
日本語を習うこといます。was the only sentence that wasn't understandable.
上手にかけていると思いますよ。

The7thSamurai · 16 Jan 2007

Greg777, have you really only been studying for two weeks? Damn.

Regarding kanji compounds, I posted a similar question a couple of years which was nicely answered. I suggest reading through the entire thread:

Trying to understand Japanese sentences | Japan Forum

Couple of things about your sentences:
今晩は is usually written in hiragana when giving a greeting. When you write 今晩 with kanji it means more like "tonight" rather than a greeting.

日本語を習うこといます。 For a continuous verb in Japanese, like English '~ing', you usually use the 'te' form of the verb + います. Of course there are exceptions, and it's not 100% like the Engish ~ing form so bare that in mind for later. So your sentence should be something like 日本語をならっています (I've kept the verb in hiragana so you can see the pronunciation).

Idiomatic · 16 Jan 2007

I just noticed from what Bucko said what your problem might have been sooo i'll explain ~ing in jpns a little better.

The gerund form 'ing':
- I am learnING japanese
- 日本語をならっています
this uses the te + imasu form of the verb

The noun form 'ing':
- I like learnING
- ならうことが好きです
this uses V3 + koto form which basically turns the verb into a noun

I guess you mixed the two together which ended up making no sense.

The7thSamurai · 16 Jan 2007

Idiomatic: nice explanation but just be careful with your terminology. A gerund is a noun. What you meant there was a 'present progressive verb' instead of gerund. Your second example using こと is a gerund.

Greg777 · 17 Jan 2007

ありがとうございます！
I appreciate all of your comments! (Oh I wish I could express that in Japanese! Soon )

Elizabeth: I'm trying to translate you. You said: 上手にかけていると思いますよ。
I've figured out joozu (It was pleasant to discover I already knew this word, it will make the kanji much easier to remember. Skill gives you the upper hand - I love neumonics.)
Then かけている. Kakete is clearly a te form verb, but I can't find the dictionary form. I don't think you meant risk or gamble, 賭! I've seen かけて before, but I'm not sure what it means. And 思 seems to mean a million things!

Nonetheless, I get the idea of the sentence. A nice compliment, so in Japanese I guess a modest response would be in order.
いえ、まだ上手がありません。

Bucko － Yeah only two weeks, but I've been spending a lot of time. I'm not working, so it's easy for me to dedicate a lot of myself to learning something new. Also, Japanese so far "feels" very natural to me. Many things about it make a lot more sense to me than English. I think that I will learn it very quickly. You yourself seem to have come a long long way from when you posted that thread you had me read. Thanks for that, btw, explained a lot.

To everyone -
I'm interested in trying to order some childrens books in japanese, or reading childrens learning websites. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!
Greg

Greg777 · 17 Jan 2007

One more thing - In the last sentence I said
私が分かるできる？
not
分かりましたか？

The second one (Elizabeth's correction) is better -
do you understand me, instead of can you understand me.

So when is できる appropriate? Is it only used with こと phrases?
Ex: 魚を食べることできるか？（Can you eat fish?)

Thanks again!

PaulTB · 17 Jan 2007

Greg777 said:
One more thing - In the last sentence I said
私が分かるできる？
not
分かりましたか？

The second one (Elizabeth's correction) is better -
do you understand me, instead of can you understand me.

So when is できる appropriate? Is it only used with こと phrases?
Ex: 魚を食べることできるか？（Can you eat fish?)

(Noun) ができる
or
(verb) ことができる
but not
(verb) できる

Don't forget the が!

I said 'noun' but obviously not anything works. You can't say 車ができる but you can say 運転ができる. 運転 is what's known as a (vs) - 'suru verb' in WWWJDIC.

運転【うんてん】 (n,vs) operation; motion; driving; (P)
WWWJDIC: Word Search

運転する to drive
運転ができる to be able to drive

The7thSamurai · 17 Jan 2007

Here's another tip for you Greg (and anyone else out there) - install Firefox on your computer and use the add-on called Rikaichan. Once it's installed you just put your mouse over a Japanese word and up comes the definition. You would easily know that 思います means 'to think' with this little baby installed.

Oh yeah, and I don't really recommend childrens books. The sentences might be simple, but they're simple for Japanese children, not necessarily the Japanese learner. Think about all the childrens books you use to read, with magic wands and princesses and dragons etc. If you really want to start reading I recommend getting a text book like Genki. They have reading exercises and sometimes it's pretty interesting.

Greg777 · 17 Jan 2007

PaulTB said:
(Noun) ができる
or
(verb) ことができる
but not
(verb) できる
Don't forget the が!
I said 'noun' but obviously not anything works. You can't say 車ができる but you can say 運転ができる. 運転 is what's known as a (vs) - 'suru verb' in WWWJDIC.
運転【うんてん】 (n,vs) operation; motion; driving; (P)
運転する to drive
運転ができる to be able to drive

ありがと！ Man you guys are great, I'm learning more just from this thread than a whole day of reading grammar lessons

Elizabeth · 17 Jan 2007

Greg777 said:
ありがとうございます！
I appreciate all of your comments! (Oh I wish I could express that in Japanese! Soon )
Elizabeth: I'm trying to translate you. You said: 上手にかけていると思いますよ。
Nonetheless, I get the idea of the sentence. A nice compliment, so in Japanese I guess a modest response would be in order.

返事をありがとう！

いいえ、まだまだです、is the basic Japanese response to keep in mind. If you can arm yourself early and you're not sure what else to say, it's a very handy, all-purpose line of defense.

いえ、まだ上手がありません。
いいえ、まだ上手ではありません。がいいですね。

分かり易く言い換えてみます。:note:
とても良く書けていると思います。！とか You can write very well ! とか It was well-written みたいな感じですね。

Greg777 · 17 Jan 2007

wow elizabeth! you like to challenge the poor beginners, huh?
返事をありがとう！
Thanking me for replying?

いいえ、まだまだです、
これはとても好きですよ！ありがと。
you said-
いいえ、まだ上手ではありません。
ええ、わかりました。でも、"がいいですね。"は分かりません。
In quoting you, is は the correct particle to use after your phrase?

you said-
分かり易く言い換えてみます。 (-edit, had the wrong sentence pasted here initially)
これは難しく分かります。
(trying to say this is difficult for me to understand)
I think you said "It will be easier to understand if I put it another way"?

Bucko - this firefox plugins rules, saves me lots of time in translation

みんなをありがと！
Greg

Idiomatic · 17 Jan 2007

Bucko said:
Idiomatic: nice explanation but just be careful with your terminology. A gerund is a noun. What you meant there was a 'present progressive verb' instead of gerund. Your second example using こと is a gerund.

俺は馬鹿だったぜんぜん知らなかった OTL

bentenmusume · 17 Jan 2007

Greg777 said:
wow elizabeth! you like to challenge the poor beginners, huh?
返事をありがとう！
Thanking me for replying?

Yep, that's right.

Greg777 said:
いいえ、まだ上手ではありません。
ええ、わかりました。でも、"がいいですね。"は分かりません。
In quoting you, is は the correct particle to use after your phrase?

Elizabeth was pointing out that it should be 「上手ではありません」 (the contracted form 「上手じゃありません」 would also be okay) instead of 「上手がありません」, as you originally wrote.

When she said 「・・・がいいですね」, she was basically just saying "(...)would be good." (i.e. "(...)would be a good way to say it.")

Greg777 said:
you said-
分かり易く言い換えてみます。 (-edit, had the wrong sentence pasted here initially)
(trying to say this is difficult for me to understand)
I think you said "It will be easier to understand if I put it another way"?

Closer to "I'll try rephrasing this in a simpler (easier-to-understand) way." The -ku form of the adjective 分かりやすい is basically an adverbial usage, describing the manner in which something will be done.

It may be a bit difficult to understand at this very early stage in your studies, but to give a very basic illustrative example:

「難しい」, as you know, is an adjective that means "difficult."
「難しくします」, would mean "[I'll] make it difficult."
「難しくなります」 would mean "[It will] become difficult."

Greg777 said:
これは難しく分かります。

「難しく分かります」 would literally mean something like "I understand this difficult-ly." (not intended to make sense)

If you want to say it's difficult to understand, I'd suggest:
「これは分かりにくいです。」 (the ～にくい form is the opposite of the ～やすい form -- difficult-to-X and easy-to-X, respectively)
...or you could say:
「これは難しくて分かりません。」 (literally, "This is difficult and I don't understand it.")

Greg777 said:
みんなをありがと！

This would mean something like "Thanks for everyone!", with 「を」 marking _what_ you're saying thanks for. (Note that it's the same pattern as Elizabeth's 「返事をありがとう」 above.)

If you want to say "Thanks everyone", it would be 「みんな、ありがとう！」... or, more formally, 「皆さん、ありがとう（ございます）！」

P.S.

Bucko said:
Idiomatic: nice explanation but just be careful with your terminology. A gerund is a noun. What you meant there was a 'present progressive verb' instead of gerund. Your second example using こと is a gerund.

I won't go into the details, but some schools of Japanese pedagogy (most notably Jordan's Japanese: the Spoken Language) do indeed refer to the -te form of verbs as "the gerund." While you're correct that the verb+koto construction is closer to what we call a "gerund" in English grammar, I've never heard it referred to as such in a Japanese textbook.

The7thSamurai · 17 Jan 2007

Greg777 said:
Bucko - this firefox plugins rules, saves me lots of time in translation

Yeah, you'll be able to see how kanji works with that one too because of the way it highlights words.

Elizabeth · 17 Jan 2007

Oh yeah, and I don't really recommend childrens books. The sentences might be simple, but they're simple for Japanese children, not necessarily the Japanese learner. Think about all the childrens books you use to read, with magic wands and princesses and dragons etc. If you really want to start reading I recommend getting a text book like Genki. They have reading exercises and sometimes it's pretty interesting.

The sentences are simple and, at the right level, the vocab and grammar forms are also very straightforward. Easy readers are very much like in the West -- more similar to Curious George or Dick and Jane than Snow White or
Hans Christian Andersen. Normally, plunging deep into native writing isn't recommended until the learner has completed at least one grammar book.

I'm also not talking about translated otogibanashi (Western fairy tales) or mukashibanashi (traditional Japanese tales -- Peach Boy, Sparrow's Tongue Cut, Crane Lady etc). The easiest place to get started is from standard Japanese elementary textbooks or textbook style readers (Shogaku kokugo dokuhon). The tricky part is ordering them abroad without being able to handle those kinds of publisher sites and forms....

There may be other similar resources on the web, I'm not sure. All I know is they're a hell of a lot more interesting (as a supplement) than most textbook passages....never having tried Genki, though, so not referring to it in particular....

Elizabeth · 17 Jan 2007

Greg777 said:
ありがと！ Man you guys are great, I'm learning more just from this thread than a whole day of reading grammar lessons

毎日、いつでもフリーレッスン！！！ Please return to our site soon and often.

じゃあ、またね！

Greg777 · 18 Jan 2007

The -ku form of the adjective 分かりやすい is basically an adverbial usage, describing the manner in which something will be done.
It may be a bit difficult to understand at this very early stage in your studies, but to give a very basic illustrative example:
「難しい」, as you know, is an adjective that means "difficult."
「難しくします」, would mean "[I'll] make it difficult."
「難しくなります」 would mean "[It will] become difficult."
「難しく分かります」 would literally mean something like "I understand this difficult-ly." (not intended to make sense)
If you want to say it's difficult to understand, I'd suggest:
「これは分かりにくいです。」 (the ～にくい form is the opposite of the ～やすい form -- difficult-to-X and easy-to-X, respectively)
...or you could say:
「これは難しくて分かりません。」 (literally, "This is difficult and I don't understand it.")

Right, I get it. I was thinking I needed to use difficult as an adverb to modify the verb understand, but it was "my understanding of it" which was difficult, which is a noun right?
But I could say something like
速く分かりました。
？
返事をありがとう！

Greg777 · 18 Jan 2007

Elizabeth said:
毎日、いつでもフリーレッスン！！！ Please return to our site soon and often.
じゃあ、またね！

もちろん、ここにいましようよ！またね

bentenmusume · 18 Jan 2007

Greg777 said:
Right, I get it. I was thinking I needed to use difficult as an adverb to modify the verb understand, but it was "my understanding of it" which was difficult, which is a noun right?

Hmm... I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Yes, "understanding" would be a noun (理解/rikai), and you could say something like 理解が難しい, but the most natural way to say something is difficult to understand is 分かりにくい (for example, 「ちょっと分かりにくいです」, which is an adjective (or an "i-adjective", as it's called in many textbooks.)

Greg777 said:
But I could say something like 速く分かりました。

Grammatically, this is fine, but in more natural Japanese, you're probably more likely to hear 「すぐ分かりました」.

Greg777 said:
もちろん、ここにいましようよ！またね

ここにいましょう (<- note that the ょ is a small one) is a 'volitional' form that would mean something like "Let's stay around here!" (it sounds a bit odd used together with もちろん, too...) It would probably be more natural to say something like 「もちろん、また来ますよ」, meaning "Of course, I'll come back (visit this forum) again."

Elizabeth · 18 Jan 2007

Grammatically, this is fine, but in more natural Japanese, you're probably more likely to hear 「すぐ分かりました」

I would imagine you could also use 覚える in the sense of "pick up on" or "catch on to" in the past tense as すぐに（自然に）覚えてしまった。But I'm not completely certain. I've also only personally used jt_san's suggestion of すぐわかった。

And never in reference to myself...

undrentide · 18 Jan 2007

Elizabeth said:
I would imagine you could also use 覚える in the sense of "pick up on" or "catch on to" in the past tense as すぐに（自然に）覚えてしまった。But I'm not completely certain. I've also only personally used jt_san's suggestion of すぐわかった。

覚える is different from わかる.
わかる is to express comprehension while 覚える means to learn and remember something.
e.g.
この単語がわかった。
I understood this word (= what it means).
この単語を覚えた。
I learned this word and memorized (= now I can use it and is able to answer if someone asked for its meaning).
車の運転がわかった。
I understood how to drive a car. (But I'm not necessarily be able to drive it actually.)
車の運転を覚えた。
I learned how to drive a car. (So I can drive.)
So in this case what you usually say and what jt san suggested i.e.
すぐわかりました is most appropriate.

Greg777 · 18 Jan 2007

jt_ said:
ここにいましょう (<- note that the ょ is a small one) is a 'volitional' form that would mean something like "Let's stay around here!" (it sounds a bit odd used together with もちろん, too...) It would probably be more natural to say something like 「もちろん、また来ますよ」, meaning "Of course, I'll come back (visit this forum) again."

Hm, this conjugation chart i was using from the net referred to it as the future tense, so I misunderstood it. To say what I was trying to say (I'll come here again) of course i should have used 来る instead of 行く, that was just stupid of me.

またありがと

Elizabeth · 18 Jan 2007

undrentide said:
覚える is different from わかる.
わかる is to express comprehension while 覚える means to learn and remember something.
e.g.
この単語がわかった。
I understood this word (= what it means).
この単語を覚えた。
I learned this word and memorized (= now I can use it and is able to answer if someone asked for its meaning).
車の運転がわかった。
I understood how to drive a car. (But I'm not necessarily be able to drive it actually.)
車の運転を覚えた。
I learned how to drive a car. (So I can drive.)
So in this case what you usually say and what jt san suggested i.e.
すぐわかりました is most appropriate.

Yes, I was concerned also that 覚える（おぼえてしまった、覚えられた）be used for someone that was able to quickly memorize the various 難しい conjugations （難しくなる、難しくする）without perhaps understanding the underlying concept that the grammar reflects. And truth be known, I didn't know exactly what @Greg san himself was referring to in the earlier post...So forget this if it's too confusing, but thanks so much for the great explanation, undrentide-san !

My first post!

後輩

Manga Psychic

先輩

Master of the Universe

後輩

Master of the Universe

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後輩

Manga Psychic

Master of the Universe

後輩

先輩

後輩

後輩

原点回帰

Master of the Universe

先輩

先輩

後輩

後輩

原点回帰

先輩

Japa'n vagyok

後輩

先輩

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