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Question Lesson 9 & 10: The End


(1) Well the previous question was の so it should be の again.
(2)は: topical.
(3)が: more information provided about the initial topic. That's the one I'm the least certain of.
(4)と because I think this really is: 言って, as seen before
(5) I'm hesitating between で and も. で as in: I'm the same way. Or も as in I'm also the same. I'll ultimately go with で.
Comments:
(3) を because it's the direct object of 言って.
(5) lol, it was neither. It's と. I'm not sure about this one.
 
I'd be great if someone could provide some pointers about:
#9. (1)&(3)
#10. (5)

(1)の apposition to establish a connection between きみ子さん and 下.
(2)は about...
(3)は contrastive. Not sure though!
(4)
(5)
(6)
*
Actually some hints would help here. Confused!
 
Zizka said:
@DavidChiang I noticed you disagreed with some explanations. Care to pitch in?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I, too, want to hear his opinion if he really can tell us the points where he disagrees with in my posts, and can explain the reasons. Hope this is not his another "personal attacks".

#8
7. ご主人の黒川さんは、貿易会社の社長さんです
8. 奥さんの昭子さんは、生け花の先生です。

See, these are completely the same construction. Thus, the first の is for apposition also in #8.

#9-1, 3
一番上 means "oldest" here. These words related to "one's age" are connected to nouns with の.
e.g.
年上の人
an older person

10歳の誕生日
one's 10th birthday

#10-5
Have you learned ～と同じ?
A は B と同じだ
A is the same as B.

二番目のお嬢さんは、わたしと同じ年です。
The second daughter is the same age as me.

#11-2
下 is treated like a location here.

3
昭子さん
きみ子さん
伸二？ (honorific title for a young boy)

4
お嬢さん (polite form for other people's daughter)
弟？

5
a conjunctive particle

6
Talking about him (= Shinji)

Thus, 3 and 4 are not particles.
 
一番上 means "oldest" here. These words related to "one's age" are connected to nouns with の.
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I think I confused it with で as in:
母は二十五歳で結婚した。
#10-5
Have you learned ～と同じ?
A は B
Click to expand...
Nope. I'll look it up.
 
Zizka said:
I think I confused it with で as in:
母は二十五歳で結婚した
Click to expand...
結婚した is a verb. That's the point.

I accidentally clicked "reply" button before finishing writing. I already added the rest to my previous post.
 

(1)の apposition to establish a connection between きみ子さん and 下. I think this refers to:
一番上 means "oldest" here. These words related to "one's age" are connected to nouns with の.
Click to expand...
(2)
#11-2
下 is treated like a location here.
Click to expand...
So に then?
(3)I changed my mind. I think いう is really 言う. So と。
(4)が existential
(5)
5
a conjunctive particle
Click to expand...
The only conjunctive particle I know of is が.
(6)
6
Talking about him (= Shinji)
Click to expand...
Normally that's と but there's no action of talking being mentioned here. There's only the です copula as opposed to the previous times where various forms of
言う were used.
Comments:
*While I got (2), I don't get it. How is it a direction?
*Regarding (5), there's no opposition between the first clause and the second one. I didn't realize we could still use が in that context.
*I misunderstood your hint. は does make sense as a contrastive topical.
 

(1). は: topical
(2). で: where the action takes place.
(3). に: when an action takes place. This could be wrong as in the translation there's a reason given, から. I was tempted to put it there.
(4)に: indirect object.
(5)文通 is a "correspondence of letters", する verb is being used here and the correspondence is the direct object so を.
(6) conjunctive が.
Comments:
(2) I don't understand why で doesn't work. I mean it *is* where the action takes place, there's really no other way to put it.
(3) it's as I thought, から but I think it's to indicate the point of origin, not the reason.
(6) That's the から reason.
 
#11-1
This の is not apposition. きみ子さん and 下 doesn't refers to the same thing/person, unlike ご主人の黒川さん or 奥さんの昭子さん. Also notice the word order is opposite. The proper noun must be put after の for apposition.

2
Yes, it's に. This に doesn't indicate the direction. See what the verb used with に is.

3
いう doesn't mean "to say" here. Indeed it originally came from the verb 言う, but ～という means "called/named" as a set.

4
Correct.

5
が is not always used as an adversative conjunction. It's for introduction of the main cause there.

6
This is just a topic marker, not a contrastive one.

#12-2
いる/いた is not an action.

3
Your interpretation is correct.
に is also possible. Unlike から, に suggests that the speaker doesn't exchange letters with her now.

4
に is wrong here. 文通 is a mutual action. Do you understand the difference between 彼に話す and 彼と話す?
 


(1)の: apposition to express last Sunday.
(2)に: to indicate when an action took place.
(3)の: possessive (Kimiko's father).
(4)は: topical.
(5)と: and...
(6)I'd go with と but normally they don't finish the list. Either way, the only option I can see is が as a conjunction but I bet this one is wrong.
(7) the translation is missing that they went by car. Anyways, で as a means of transportation.
(8)へ/に as the destination.
Comments:
(4) was が as in to introduce the subject.
(6)を as in the direct object of the verb.
That went pretty well and I understand the mistakes for that one.
 
#13-1
You still misunderstand apposition. Did you read the wikipedia article I linked in my previous post?

4
が is used here since きみ子さんのお父さん is a new information.

6
The conjunctive particle are only connected to verbs or adjectives, but わたし is a noun.
 
Ok.
2
Yes, it's に. This に doesn't indicate the direction. See what the verb used with に is.
Click to expand...
下 に... well there are two verbs in the sentence. The copula at the verb end as well as います. I don't know with which one 下に is associated with.
3
いう doesn't mean "to say" here. Indeed it originally came from the verb 言う, but ～という means "called/named" as a set.
Click to expand...
Ah ha! Ok. Would it be fair to say that the ひらがな variety is used in that aspect ("to be called").
#12-2
いる/いた is not an action.
Click to expand...
It's a copula. Ok, I see why で doesn't work then.
4
に is wrong here. 文通 is a mutual action. Do you understand the difference between 彼に話す and 彼と話す?
Click to expand...
It was と. Ok so it's mutual so it's not just one person being the indirect object.
In your examples, in the former, one person is talking, in the latter, both are.
 
Regarding apposition:
a relationship between two or more words or phrases in which the two units are grammatically parallel and have the same referent (e.g., my friend Sue ; the first US president, George Washington.)
 


(1)I'd say が there, it's new information after all. This is a follow-up to the previous question anyway.
(2)の a connector between "America" and "Disney".
(3)(4) ok so a compound particle again. Those are the hardest. The most common compound I'm used to is
では but here there's a notion of "also" so I need も. You guys have shown me ways to use も with other particles. I'd say もに as in also+direction.
(5)ことが is a set phrase I believe.
(6)が: conjunction. あります isn't a noun, it's a verb so the conjunction should work this time.
(7) の possessive.
(8)と and...
(9)(10) I'd say でも but I looked it up and it doesn't make sense here. I wanted the で as in the way+も also. "The way is also" if you will. I'll leave it as blank as I don't know for sure and don't want to guess.
Comments:
As usual good answers are in green and wrong ones are in red. For (3)(4) I essentially got it right but put them in the wrong order. (1) was topical.
(8)(9)(10)は＆の＆と. I thought I could say "and" because it was two places. As for the last to, I don't know why.
 
Zizka said:
下 に... well there are two verbs in the sentence. The copula at the verb end as well as います. I don't know with which one 下に is associated with.
Click to expand...
When the predicate is "noun + copula", it's a noun sentence and the structure is just "Noun A は/が Noun B だ." に is not used in noun sentences except when the noun preceding copula (= Noun B) expresses an action, e.g., 委員長は彼に決定だ or 彼は国外に追放だ. These nouns are considered to represent verbs, 決定する and 追放する respectively, so you can think these are exceptions. Thus, に is connected to います.

Zizka said:
Would it be fair to say that the ひらがな variety is used in that aspect ("to be called").
Click to expand...
Mostly yes, but kanji is also sometimes used.

Zizka said:
It's a copula. Ok, I see why で doesn't work then.
Click to expand...
いる/いた is not copula, either.

Zizka said:
It was と. Ok so it's mutual so it's not just one person being the indirect object.
Click to expand...
The indirect object is just one person きみ子さん. "Mutual" refers to the speaker/subject and the person.

Zizka said:
In your examples, in the former, one person is talking
Click to expand...
"One person" is the speaker/subject.

Zizka said:
Regarding apposition:
a relationship between two or more words or phrases in which the two units are grammatically parallel and have the same referent (e.g., my friend Sue ; the first US president, George Washington.)
Click to expand...
先週 "Last week" and 日曜日 "Sunday" don't have the same referent, right? The same goes to きみ子さん and 下.

#14-1
は is used there since わたし is treated as an already-known information even if it's not mentioned before, as I wrote previously.

3, 4
も is put after case particles.
e.g.
彼とも話した
彼女からもプレゼントをもらった。
車でも行ける。

5
ことがある is a set phase.

8, 9, 10
は is the topic marker.
の is a pronoun, representing "Disneyland".
This と is not "and". It's the same usage of と as AはBと同じだ, as I explained in #10-5.

Another combination 東京のディズニーランドとアメリカのはそっくりで can be correct. The given answer is more appropriate since it's talking about Tokyo Disneyland there, though.
 
3, 4
も is put after case particles.
Click to expand...
I googled for a list. What are the case particles:
で, と, から... this is based on your examples. I couldn't find a list online. If I know which ones are the case particles I'll know which particles can be used in combination with も.
*
So the "case" when it comes to grammar, what is it exactly?
Source:
Case is the grammatical function of a noun or pronoun. There are only three cases in modern English, they are subjective (he), objective (him) and possessive (his).
How does it relate to Japanese more precisely? Do you mean particles which are used to indicate the possessive like の and so on?
いる/いた is not copula, either.
Click to expand...
I thought a copula was the same thing as a stative verb. So yes, "to exist" isn't a copula.
Thus, に is connected to います.
Click to expand...
Ok, it's logical.
の is a pronoun, representing "Disneyland".
Click to expand...
You mean a dependent indefinite pronoun? That's the only entry I have in my dictionary.
Can you elaborate how "Disneyland" is being represented by の? How did you come to that conclusion?
 
Just as further exploration about this:
As an indefinite pronoun, の, is translated as "one" (English approximation):
わたしは大きいのを買った。
I bought a big one.

In my sentence, my clause to be exact:
[...]東京のディズニーランドはアメリカのと[...]
So the の(the second one) then refers to the one in America. I think I got it.
This と is not "and". It's the same usage of と as AはBと同じだ, as I explained in #10-5.
Click to expand...
You mean this:
There was no 同じ in #14 so I didn't recognize it.
I'm trying to associate that function from one of my reference books.
Could it be:
A particle marking the NP which maintains a reciprocal relationship with the subject of a clause.
In this case, the one in America being linked with the Disneyworld in Japan. (talking about the と).
I think that sounds about right.
 

(1) Let's be fair here, this is a place where the action took place: で.
(2) I know から can mean after. If memory serves well, the ～て of the preceding verb is used to express から. I'm 100% confident about this one.
(3) I've seen that situation before. 登りました. There's a specific particle with this kind of sentence. It's either を or に. I'm tempted by を as in a space along with s.t. or s.o. moves. I'll go with that.
Comments:
Ah... and to think I hesitated with the right answer. を in the sense I meant is transitional, which is why it's the wrong answer.
 


(1)に: time when an action took place.
(2)で：if I recall correctly, みんな is often used with で.
(3)おすし屋さん is a place. It's funny. I thought it'd be すし屋. Anyways, I'd say へ.
(4)の：direction of the action takes place. いす means "chair". I think it's fair to think that の connects the counter and the chairs.
(5)腰かけて is a verb which means "to sit down". To set where? On the stools, the direction of the action, so に.
(6)注文しました: to order something. So just a direct object particle: を.
Comments:
I feel that (1) is strange. Why not when the action took place? It seems grammatical to me.
 


(1)から: meaning after... Maybe this could be problematic as it's not accompanied with a ～て verb. Will see.
(2)で: the way they did something...
(3)に/へ destination.
(4)The man of the company, so の.
(5)
(6)
(7)
(8)
(9)
(10)
(11)
Some hint would be appreciated for (5) please.
 
If I had to guess I'd say:
(7)を direct object of "to drink".
(8)や thing like...
(9)を direct object of "to hold"
(10)や things like...
(11)が to exist.
Not sure about:
(5)&(6)
 
(1) それから is perfectly valid and actually is a common set phrase to mean "after that" or "and then." (It's even the title of a novel by the famous Japanese author Natsume Soseki.)
(5) is apposition. People who are male, i.e. men. This usage is also common enough to be considered a set phrase. You'll also see 男（ ）の子 to mean "boy", 女（ ）人 ("woman") and 女（ ）子 ("girl"), where all the blanks are filled by the same particle as ⑤.
(6) can be as simple as marking "men" as the grammatical subject of 来ていました. If the nuance is "men were there, in addition to others" (or "in addition to ourselves") another particle could also work here.
(7), (8), (11) Your answers here are valid and should be correct.
(10) 歌や歌っている is not a valid construction (even if you meant something like "singing things like songs (and other things)", which is unlikely to be the intended meaning here in the first place). Go back and look at other examples with や and you'll note that there is always another particle at the end of the non-exhaustive list dictating the list's relationship to the verb, e.g.:

田中さんや鈴木さん（ ）来ました。
お寿司やてんぷら（ ）食べました。

Think of what particles can go in those blanks. There is more than one correct answer for each, but や is not a valid answer for either, and this is the same reason it's no good for ⑩.

Zizka said:
(3)おすし屋さん is a place. It's funny. I thought it'd be すし屋.
Click to expand...
Just to be clear, すし屋 is also valid, but さん is often applied to shops/professions as a general expression of politeness. It's a rather common construction (you'll also see 本屋さん, 八百屋さん, etc.) and sounds cultured/polite (and not really funny at all) to native speakers. (The お in おすし is similar honorific/politeness prefix you'll often find before お金, お酒, etc. This usage is so frequent that it's actually probably the more common form of the word, with the version without "お" sounding more "rough".)

(edit: Regarding the other user's "disagreement", I wouldn't worry too much about it. That user has not, to my knowledge, made even a single post about the Japanese language on these forums, so I haven't the slightest idea what he could possibly be objecting to here, and rather doubt that he could bring something constructive to the conversation. I actually hope it was just a mistaken click, rather than an attempt to be antagonistic and confrontational.)
 
Last edited:
There are several ways of classification, but case particles usually refer to が, を, に, へ, と, で, から, まで and より. I used the term "case particles" instead of just "particles" since some particles are attached after も, such like sentence final particles さ, ね or な. I should have used "most particles" since exceptions are not so many (i.e., も is usually attached after other particles).

Zizka said:
There was no 同じ in #14 so I didn't recognize it.
Click to expand...
そっくり has a similar usage as 同じ just like their meanings.

Yes, that's right. It's the same と as the one in 彼と話す or ～とかくれんぼをする.

#15-2
You realized the -te form "遊んで", and got the correct meaning of から by it. I think this is a good example to show your improvement. :emoji_thumbsup:

#16-1
に is grammatically correct. The reason は is used there is because the topic the speaker has been talking about so far is changed to the new one. He/She states that they are going to talk about the new topic, i.e., the night from now on. This is one of the main functions of the topic marker は in a flow of a conversation.
Incidentally, you can also use には here.

2
Yes, it's で for "manner/state".

#17-1
To supplement to jt_-san's explanation, there is no problem that temporal nouns are directly connected to から, meaning "from", for instance 二時から, 朝から, 昨日から, 来年から, etc., right? それ refers to "that time" here.
cf.
これから, あれから

4
It's not just 会社の but 会社勤めの. The meanings are different.

5
Incidentally, you've already come across this expression previously.
 
(5) well the only particle to express apposition I've seen so far is の. So I'll go with that.
(6) see here I'm still hesitating between は and が. I'd go for the latter though even if I'm not certain.
(10) I felt like や wouldn't be right and in your examples, を would fit in the second one about the food. I guess it's を as the direct of singing, so "singing songs".
Comments:
The answers are:

For (11) the answer key says も. Does it mean my own answer isn't right?
 
I'm asking because:
(7), (8), (11) Your answers here are valid and should be correct.
Click to expand...
If it's も, would it mean: "There were also people singing songs?"
 
#17-6
Another one jt_-san was talking about is も. が, not は, is used here since the subject is a new information.

10
Zizka said:
I guess it's を as the direct of singing, so "singing songs".
Click to expand...
Right.

11
Zizka said:
If it's も, would it mean: "There were also people singing songs?"
Click to expand...
Exactly.


Incidentally, "disagree" button is already removed to avoid being used as a spammer's tool.
 
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