Question Lesson 9 & 10: The End

Zizka · 24 Jul 2018

Introduction:
For more information about procedure, see my other threads (lesson 7 & 8).
Alright, the ultimate moment. Lesson 9 & 10 have no choices, I need to figure out which particle is the right one among all the particles seen since lesson 1. Both lesson 9 & 10 have 20 questions. It's a shortcoming of the book. It feels like laziness. Why make 30 questions for up to lesson 6 and then switch to 20, especially for the final review. It discredits the book a bit which is a shame as it's pretty good otherwise. It still contains a few mistakes considering the first edition was published in 1999. Seems like a long time to polish your work and tweak it out but of well.

My expectations for the exercise is that I'll have to go back and forth a lot to revisit old particles. My main concern is still は and が. From what I've experienced with other particles, it's still the most challenging aspect of particles.

Zizka · 24 Jul 2018

#1. わたし「①の」名前「②は」ブレンダー「③と」いいます。
*
They're starting off pretty easy for the first one, with a possessive followed by a topical.
I'm drawing a blank for the third one however. Could it be a は+が where が gives a more detailed information about what the previously introduced topic?
Comments:
と was the right answer. I guess it's a quotation?

Zizka · 24 Jul 2018

#2. わたし「①は」、今学期「②から」、この大学「③ので」日本語「④を」勉強します。
I'm going to study Japanese at this college starting this September.
①about...
②Point of origin in time.
③The Japanese of this college. Possessive.
④The direct object of study, as in study what➡this college's Japanese.
Comments:
Come to think of it, it's not really the college's Japanese. I mean, there's no mention of a major here. So it's just a で as to where the action is taking place. Could've gotten this one.

Zizka · 24 Jul 2018

#3. わたし「①は」、去年「②の」十二月二十日「③に」、シカゴ
「④から」東京「⑤まで」来ました。
I came to Tokyo from Chicago on December 20 of last year.
*
① is a topical.④⑤ are the usual from/to. ③ is when the action took time.
Comments:
⑤This is what we talked about with @Toritoribe . I knew it, I hesitated but it felt wrong with から by itself there.

Zizka · 24 Jul 2018

#4. （わたし「①は」）日本「②は」初めてで、
I'd rather break down sentences in clauses/sentences when possible, I find it less intimidating to approach as little linguistic units.
So about myself, it's my first time in Japan.
日本 is a place. There's no movement here, no destination. I'd say で, where the action take place.
Comment:
No, it's は again. Is that two topical in sequence? About "me" is implied followed by about "Japan". That seems like the most plausible answer.
シカゴ「③の」大学「④で」日本語「⑤を」勉強「⑥?」しました、
の for the third one in the sense of "the college of Chicago". Followed by で where the action of studying takes place.を for five as the direct object of the verb. Followed by... ⑥. Wow, I have no clue.
At first it might be the が conjunction but no, しました follows the answer. I could guess but I honestly have no clue.
So the sixth one is really の... I don't understand that at all.
I'll stop here as I already need help with a couple of the things I've mentioned so far...

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

Let's think this through, I'm not about to give up.
The word which precedes 「の」is 勉強 which on its own is just a noun. 勉強 is often followed by the auxiliary 「する」to turn it into a verb, which is the case here.
What I'm not familiar with is the の particle in-between noun and auxiliary verb「する」.
In fact, my reference book doesn't have a single instance of の in between noun and suru auxiliary which makes it difficult for me to solve this.

Toritoribe · 25 Jul 2018

#1
Yes for と.

#4
The first は is the main topic; the topic for the whole sentence.
The second one is called sub-topic. The sub-topic often has a contrastive nuance. In this case, the speaker has been to other countries than Japan, but this is the first time for Japan, or something like that.

勉強する is a -suru verb, so takes the object which is indicates by を. On the other hand, 勉強 also can be a noun, so there can be another expression 勉強をする in the same meaning. する is a verb here. 勉強 is a noun in 勉強をする, so の is needed to connect 日本語 and 勉強. It's like "to study Japanese" vs. "to do study of Japanese" in English.
cf.
机を解体する
to dismantle a desk
机の解体をする
to do dismantling of a desk

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

So in this case it's a study of Japanese. Man I'm having a hard time with this set.

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

Actually, I don't understand 勉強のします。I understand that 勉強 can be an independent noun, I just don't see the purpose of の there, sorry. I have thought about it.

bentenmusume · 25 Jul 2018

Are you sure it's not 日本語「⑤の」勉強「⑥を」しました？

It's like Toritoribe-san said. With a ～する verb like this there are two valid constructions:

(1)
日本語を勉強しました, where the noun 日本語 is being marked as the object of 勉強する (which is considered a single verb), and
(2)
日本語の勉強をしました, where the noun phrase 日本語の勉強 is being marked as the object of する.

You said that ⑥ is の, but 日本語の勉強のしました is ungrammatical, so I think you're either misreading this, or there's a typo in your answer key.

(This is an aside that probably isn't relevant to this chapter, but generally the only time you will see の directly connecting a noun and a verb is when it serves as a replacement for が in a modifying clause, i.e. 先生が書いた本＝先生の書いた本 to mean "the book that the teacher wrote". Note that this is a noun phrase, not a complete sentence in itself. In a standard sentence the two are not interchangeable, which is to say その本は先生が書きました is valid, but その本は先生の書きました is ungrammatical.)

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

This is the sentence:

This is the answer key:

The sentence is so long that I didn't copy it correctly which clears up everything:

Are you sure it's not 日本語「⑤の」勉強「⑥を」しました？

Since I now have the answer key might as well make sure I know why the answers are what they are.

日本人のお友達 makes perfect sense as in "Japanese friends".
も for (9): is it to indicate that the person
から for (10) is a reason/cause.
が for (11) would be to indicate the existence of something.

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

In order not to make any unnecessary mistakes copying, I'll go back to taking screenshots:

(1)&(2) this is the challenge in this sentence. 大学 is a place. I think the answer is では as in at that place+topical.
(3)ほど not only "Japanese Language".
(4)文化 means "culture". の is a certain answer as it connects "Japan" and "culture".
(5)も inclusive list. So "also" Japanese culture.
(6)も inclusive list. So "also" History.
(7) That's a sure を indicating that what comes before is a direct object of 勉強します。
Comments:
(3) was だけ. The reason why I can't ほど is because the sentence isn't negative I guess.
(5) and (6) was や. Isn't も also grammatically correct?
(7) was も. Again, isn't my answer grammatically correct?
I feel like they should've listed more answers there.

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

(1) の, the college at Chicago.
(2)で this one is risky. I'm tempted to say で to explain where the action takes place but that's already explained in (4). Still I'll go with で.
(3) に: I'd say に as in when an action takes place. The action takes place "when I was in College in Chicago". It's precise enough.
(4) に:寮 means "hostel". So that's a place. I think this is the に as in "stay somewhere". A few select verbs are used with に in that context. In this text, a place where the person exists.
(5)が:conjunction meaning "but" here, there's a contrast between the first clause and the second one.
(6)(7)では I'd go with では again just like in the previous sentence.
(8) を：する verbs require a を to indicate the direct object.
(9)(10) is about the "host family" and then "identifying" said family. I think this is a は+が again. It's not は+は because there's no contrast. It introduces the family then gives information about it.
Comments:
My doubts about (2) were confirmed it's as I thought, に。
(3) is は, I put the に in the wrong place here, see (2).
(10) while (9) was correct, (10) wasn't. It was と. Not sure why, could be:
a. live with them but that doesn't work here.
or
b. to quote?
Neither works, I'll need help for that one.

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

Mr. Kurokawa, the husband, is the president of a trading company.
(1)(2) ご主人 precedes (1) which means "husband". 黒川さん is the name of the guy. I think it's fair to say that (2) gives more information about (1). So I'd say は and が.
(3)の to connect "trading" and "company".
So は, が and の.
Comments:
The right answer is の and は. は I understand, it's the topic.
But の...? I have to admit I don't understand this. Clearly it's not the husband of 黒川さん.

Toritoribe · 25 Jul 2018

#4

Zizka said:
も for (9): is it to indicate that the person

It's "too/also". The speaker has Japanese friends, too (other than friends from other countries).

Zizka said:
が for (11) would be to indicate the existence of something.

気がする is a set phrase, meaning "to feel". は is the topicalization of it.
気がするを英語で・英訳 - 英和辞典・和英辞典 Weblio辞書

#5 (The question number must be 5, right?)

Zizka said:
(5) and (6) was や. Isn't も also grammatically correct?

Exactly. も works perfectly fine, too.

Zizka said:
(7) was も. Again, isn't my answer grammatically correct?

Not really. This must be も. Only when 5 and 6 are both と, を is used here.

日本語の文化と歴史と経済を勉強します。
This is a complete list. The subject will only learn Japanese culture, history and economy.

When 5 and 6 are both も and 7 is を, the meaning is completely different.
日本語の文化も歴史も経済を勉強します。
In this sentence, 文化, 歴史 and 経済 are not interpreted as a single list. Only 経済 is the object of 勉強する, and 文化 and 歴史 are the subjects of 勉強する (well, it's semantically odd, of course, but that's the grammatical construction).

#6-9, 10
Remember #1.
#1. わたしの名前はブレンダーといいます。
ホストファミリーは黒川さんといいます。
See, these are completely the same construction as a self-introduction/an introduction of host family.

#7-1
This の is for "apposition", not possession.
e.g.
首相の安倍晋三
Prime Minister Abe Shinzō

首都の東京
the capital city Tokyo

大学生の田中さん
a college student Tanaka

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

It's "too/also". The speaker has Japanese friends, too (other than friends from other countries).

Ah yes ok, gotcha.

Exactly. も works perfectly fine, too.

I don't get why they don't give both answers in the answer key then. Maybe it's because it doesn't stick to the translation provided in the book. Anyways, this is reassuring.

Not really. This must be も. Only when 5 and 6 are both と, を is used here.

日本語の文化と歴史と経済を勉強します。
This is a complete list. The subject will only learn Japanese culture, history and economy.

The translation of the sentence is:

So what's the difference between:
日本語の文化と歴史と経済を勉強します。
and
日本語の文化も歴史も経済を勉強します。
Don't they mean the same thing?
I mean:

In this sentence, 文化, 歴史 and 経済 are not interpreted as a single list. Only 経済 is the object of 勉強する, and 文化 and 歴史 are the subjects of 勉強する

I don't understand. Could you provide the translation to give me a better idea?

See, these are completely the same construction as a self-introduction/an introduction of host family.

It just clicked. 言う is いいます. So now I understand. They really should use かんじ in that case . So it's just a simple quotation.

#7-1
This の is for "apposition", not possession.

I don't understand what you mean by apposition here. :/

Toritoribe · 25 Jul 2018

Zizka said:
I don't understand. Could you provide the translation to give me a better idea?

Note that a list must be ended with も. In other words, the last example among the ones followed by も is the end of the list.
e.g.
すしも刺身も食べます。
Sushi and sashimi are both the object of 食べる.

彼も彼女も日本語を勉強しています。
日本語 is not included in the list. Only 彼も彼女も is the list and both are the subject, but 日本語 is the object of 勉強する.

地球も火星も金星も太陽の周りをまわっています。
Now you can see where the list ends, right?

山田さんも田中さんも山本さんを待っています。
And the meaning of the above sentence is completely different from 山田さんも田中さんも山本さんも待っています。. Can you see the difference?

In conclusion;
や
や is not used for the last example in a list.

Noun A や Noun B や Noun C

Note that this is for a complete sentence. や can be attached to the last one in an incomplete sentence when suggesting the list continues, which is often used in casual conversations
e.g.
日本食で何が好きなの？
すしや刺身や天ぷらや…
What do you like in Japanese food?
Sushi, sashimi, tempura...

と
と is optional for the last example, but usually not used.

Noun A と Noun B と Noun C (と)

も
も is always attached to the last example.

Noun A も Noun B も Noun C も

This rule is applied also when the examples other than the last one are connected with や or と. In these cases, も often gives a nuance of "even" to the last one.

Noun A や Noun B や Noun C も
Noun A と Noun B と Noun C も
(connoting "and even Noun C")

Zizka said:
I don't understand what you mean by apposition here. :/

Apposition - Wikipedia

my friend Alice Smith
友達のアリス・スミス
"My friend" and "Alice Smith" are in apposition (同格 in Japanese term).

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

彼も彼女も日本語を勉強しています。
日本語 is not included in the list. Only 彼も彼女も is the list and both are the subject, but 日本語 is the object of 勉強する.

Ok but could you translate that sentence please? I mean the first two words followed by も still relate to the verb don't they? If not, wouldn't that mean that sentence is grammatically impossible?
*
日本語の文化と歴史と経済を勉強します。
Three items are studied at school: Japanese culture (1), history (2) and economics(3).
So the meaning of the sentence:
I study Japanese culture, history and economics. Is that right?

Only 彼も彼女も is the list and both are the subject,

The subject does the action of the verb, do you mean that if I write も it means both 彼も彼女も do the action of studying? Which is why:
日本語の文化も歴史も経済を勉強します。
Is impossible because "Japanese Culture" and "History" can't study? Am I right? Is this what you are trying to say?

地球も火星も金星も太陽の周りをまわっています。
Now you can see where the list ends, right?

The Earth, Mars, Venus all turn around the sun.
So words followed by も are subjects to the verbs.

山田さんも田中さんも山本さんを待っています。
And the meaning of the above sentence is completely different from 山田さんも田中さんも山本さんも待っています。. Can you see the difference?

I think so.
(A) 山田さんも田中さんも山本さんを待っています。
Both Yamata-san and Tanaka-san have Yamada-san.
(B) 田さんも田中さんも山本さんも待っています。
Yamata-san, Tanaka-san and Yamada-san all have (it).
Not sure about the translation but (A) excludes yamada-san out of the subjects and is instead treated like the direct object while (B) includes all three people as subjects.

Note that this is for a complete sentence. や can be attached to the last one in an incomplete sentence when suggesting the list continues, which is often used in casual conversations

と is optional for the last example, but usually not used.

も is always attached to the last example.

Ok.

my friend Alice Smith

Isn't that sort of a more specific function of the connector の?

Toritoribe · 25 Jul 2018

Zizka said:
Ok but could you translate that sentence please? I mean the first two words followed by も still relate to the verb don't they? If not, wouldn't that mean that sentence is grammatically impossible?

She and he also learn Japanese.
Probably you already got the meaning, though.

Zizka said:
日本語の文化と歴史と経済を勉強します。
Three items are studied at school: Japanese culture (1), history (2) and economics(3).
So the meaning of the sentence:
I study Japanese culture, history and economics. Is that right?

Right.

Zizka said:
The subject does the action of the verb, do you mean that if I write も it means both 彼も彼女も do the action of studying? Which is why:
日本語の文化も歴史も経済を勉強します。
Is impossible because "Japanese Culture" and "History" can't study? Am I right? Is this what you are trying to say?

Exactly.

Zizka said:
The Earth, Mars, Venus all turn around the sun.
So words followed by も are subjects to the verbs.

Correct.

Zizka said:
I think so.
(A) 山田さんも田中さんも山本さんを待っています。
Both Yamata-san and Tanaka-san have Yamada-san.
(B) 田さんも田中さんも山本さんも待っています。
Yamata-san, Tanaka-san and Yamada-san all have (it).
Not sure about the translation but (A) excludes yamada-san out of the subjects and is instead treated like the direct object while (B) includes all three people as subjects.

山田: Yamada
山本: Yamamoto
Notice that the kanji is 待, not 持.

Except mistakes above, your interpretation is correct. As for the second sentence, 山田さん, 田中さん and 山本さん all can be the object since も also can be replaced with を other than が. The speaker is the subject in this case. Both interpretations are equally possible, and the meaning is determined only by the context.

Zizka said:
Isn't that sort of a more specific function of the connector の?

It's a function of the particle の. You need to pay attention to the word order. For instance, 妹のアリス and アリスの妹 are completely different in meaning. The point is which is a proper noun, and which is a common noun.

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

I understood everything except:

Except mistakes above, your interpretation is correct. As for the second sentence, 山田さん, 田中さん and 山本さん all can be the object since も also can be replaced with を other than が. The speaker is the subject in this case. Both interpretations are equally possible, and the meaning is determined only by the context.

I don't get the part in bold and I thought も was used to introduce "inclusive" subjects of a verb, not the object. Are you saying も can be used for objects as well? That's what I thought to but how can you tell when も is used to include subjects and when it's used to include objects? Maybe that's a stupid question but I'm feeling overwhelmed with information so I just want to make sure. Does it depend on the verb?

It's a function of the particle の. You need to pay attention to the word order. For instance, 妹のアリス and アリスの妹 are completely different in meaning. The point is which is a proper noun, and which is a common noun.

I still don't understand apposition but I'll read about it tomorrow morning when I get up.

bentenmusume · 25 Jul 2018

Zizka said:
I still don't understand apposition but I'll read about it tomorrow morning when I get up.

Actually, you already seemed to understand it quite well up above (even if you didn't use the word apposition).

Zizka said:
日本人のお友達 makes perfect sense as in "Japanese friends".

This is apposition.

Note that 日本人のお友達 doesn't mean "a Japanese person's friends"/"the friends of a Japanese person" (which is what it would mean if that were the possessive の), but rather "friends who are Japanese" (i.e. "Japanese" is describing "friends").

Compare these two noun phrases:

私の友達 (possessive の)
日本人の友達 (appositive の)

I imagine this would make it clear for you?

bentenmusume · 25 Jul 2018

Zizka said:
I don't get the part in bold and I thought も was used to introduce "inclusive" subjects of a verb, not the object. Are you saying も can be used for objects as well?

Yes. As either Toritoribeさん or I might have mentioned before (no worries, of course; I understand that it takes a lot of exposure for these things to sink in), the particles は and も function differently than が and を, in that the latter two explicitly mark nouns as the grammatical subject and direct object (respectively), while the former two do not.

Hence the following:

○田中さんが食べました。"Mr. Tanaka ate it."
○田中さんも食べました。"Mr. Tanaka ate it, too." (inclusive)
○田中さんは食べました。"Mr. Tanaka ate it (but maybe others didn't)." (contrastive)
☓田中さんを食べました。"(I) ate Mr. Tanaka." (nonsensical, unless we're talking about cannibalism)

○バナナを食べました。 "(I) ate a banana."
○バナナも食べました。 "(I) ate a banana, too."
○バナナは食べました。 "(I) ate a banana (but maybe nothing else.)"
☓バナナが食べました。 "The banana ate it." (nonsensical)

Zizka said:
That's what I thought to but how can you tell when も is used to include subjects and when it's used to include objects? Maybe that's a stupid question but I'm feeling overwhelmed with information so I just want to make sure. Does it depend on the verb?

Context, mostly, which would include the verb as well as the intended meaning of the sentence.

Given the above examples, if we understood the unstated grammatical subject to be a ferocious man-eating monster, 田中さん could conceivably be the direct object in 田中さん「も／は」食べました。 (At least, there is nothing about も or は, grammatically speaking, that dictates otherwise.)

Generally, though, these things will be clear from context.

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

Thanks, that does clear thing up (well at least for now!).

Context, mostly, which would include the verb as well as the intended meaning of the sentence.

I guess time will tell if I understood correctly.

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

@DavidChiang I noticed you disagreed with some explanations. Care to pitch in? If you share your perceptions I might get a more rounded understand of the whole thing.

奥さん: wife
昭子さん: name of a person
生け花: flower arrangement
(1) の but I feel this might be wrong. The subject is omitted here but there's a possession taking place.
(2) は topic of the sentence.
(3) I can tell that's a の. "Apposition" right because
生け花 doesn't literally possess the flower. It's a connection between the two words.
Yes! Got it.

Zizka · 25 Jul 2018

一番上: that's a superlative. I've seen that before... So after looking it turns out that it's より but it's used with interrogative noun.
(1)で: I think で had something about that as well. Yup second function to indicate superlative. It's the among で we've been talking about.
(2)は: a topic.
(3)I've seen that before, to indicate the age of someone... Yup, it's で, just checked.
(4)の: apposition, a male boy.
(5)います not to be confused 言います. I'd say が to indicate the existence of something. This is the answer I'm the least certain of.
Comments:
(1) was の. There's no group of people to be compared to so "among" isn't really right here come to think of it.
(3) See I'm not sure about this one.
Actually I'd like some information about this (1) & (3) as I'm not 100% on it.

Question Lesson 9 & 10: The End

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