Kanji Recall - how do you organize Kanji knowledge in your head?

So I've been trying to memorize the kanji in such a way that I can recall it from memory at will. However, unlike with Katakana, Hiragana, or Radicals, the way of "organizing" your memory is not entirely clear - this is kind of concerning when you are trying to figure out which order to recite them in. Katakana and Hiragana can be organized into the standard "akasatana hamayarawan" table, and radicals can be organized by their number. But as for kanji, I've been trying a few methods, all of which seem kind of awkward; what especially awkward is that even the order to memorize them is not entirely clear.

1) Separate kanji into groups by JLPT Number and stroke count. Even at JLPT N5, this leaves groups of 10+ Kanji with the same stroke count.
2) Separate kanji into groups by Jouyou Number and stroke count. Even at Jouyou 1, this leaves groups of 10+ Kanji with the same stroke count.
3) Some kind of dictionary order? I might have to memorize some very obscure kanji at first, but this might be better in the long run, because it's a stricter ordering. Or is it?

To make 1) and 2) a little easier, I've been trying to further organize the kanji with a given Jouyou/JLPT number and stroke count. For example, there are 8 Jouyou 1 kanji with 2 strokes. 5 of those are numbers (2-7-8-9-10). The other 3 are "person", "enter", and "power". As a mnemonic, I imagine a person forcefully slamming through a door into order to enter a room.

Don't worry, I've got the memorization for each individual kanji down. I can imagine how they are drawn inside my head. The question is how to mentally organize them the best way in relation to *each other*....

As for my dictionary, I've been using ZKanji. It's open source so I don't feel like I'm getting scammed, it has a very convenient search function to view the subset of kanji I care about, and it has stroke order.

Any more ideas?

Sorry, but I don't understand the question, really. I don't get why you would need/want to have some sort of story/mnemonic linking 人、入、and 力, as there's not anything that links them that will help you remember how to read or write them (and if you're trying to remember the word 入力 then "enter + power" might just end up being confusing). Radical/component linking between kanji (i.e. 液 is just 氵+ 夜 ) is helpful in some cases, particularly where there's a common on'yomi (長・朝・帳).

There's no such thing as a single optimal order or even a single optimal list of kanji that you must learn, as it will vary a lot depending on your choice of reading material.

4) Finding materials that allow you to learn kanji in context by reading Japanese. I think this is the most effective way to retain kanji, and it may even be easier than what you are trying to do. When I first started learning Japanese I could easily cram a few hundred kanji and recall ~70-80% a few days later, but then when I crammed more, and weeks went by, I steadily forgot them unless I saw them being used from time to time.

Take a look at these graded readers

The Great Library | チョコチョコ

reading material bank (Jpn)

I used to use the latter a long time ago but have never extensively checked out the former

nekojita said:

I don't get why you would need/want to have some sort of story/mnemonic linking 人、入、and 力, as there's not anything that links them that will help you remember how to read or write them.

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Yeah, I'm past the point where I have difficulty remembering how to read or write a specific kanji. If I focus on a kanji, I can remember the stroke order and readings for that kanji without much difficulty.

What I am struggling with, is trying to figure out a mnemonic to remember the *existence* of a kanji. For example, you can easily list the letters of the English alphabet, or hiragana in the Japanese alphabet. But you do know which kanji you are supposed to know? There are lists such as Jouyou and JLPT, and I am trying to organize the contents of those lists.

I though about things like remembering "the kanji for power" or "the kanji for person", but I don't want to link it to anything in the English language, as I'm trying to make my Japanese knowledge as independent as possible.

Perhaps I'm trying to do something extraneous. I don't know.

tokkyo said:

4) Finding materials that allow you to learn kanji in context by reading Japanese. I think this is the most effective way to retain kanji, and it may even be easier than what you are trying to do.
Take a look at these graded readers
The Great Library | チョコチョコ
reading material bank (Jpn)
I used to use the latter a long time ago but have never extensively checked out the former

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Thanks, those look like great resources!

tokkyo said:

When I first started learning Japanese I could easily cram a few hundred kanji and recall ~70-80% a few days later, but then when I crammed more, and weeks went by, I steadily forgot them unless I saw them being used from time to time.

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Yeah, I was hoping I could retain kanji more easily if I organized it all in my head somehow. Maybe I'm on the wrong track..

But you do know which kanji you are supposed to know?

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I don't even know which kanji I know (certainly couldn't list them off). I notice if I'm reading something and don't recognise a kanji or do recognise a kanji but not in that given word. "Know" is a bit vague, anyway, because you can recognise some kanji but not be able to write them, or know a kanji in a few words but still get blindsided by unknown vocabulary.

Why not link the kanji to Japanese vocabulary, which is how you're (hopefully) going to use them anyway? e.g. remember 力 = ちから、入力 = にゅうりょく (and the meanings of those words, of course). One way of testing yourself is by using 漢検 style practice sheets which are all over the internet (for example here). Primarily they test kanji to kana/kana to kanji testing in context (e.g. 休日はピクニックに行く - give reading for 休日 - or 会場のでぐちはこちらだ - give right kanji for でぐち).

There are a lot of ways to organize them (Radical, reading, grade level, similar looking), however after years and years of studying Kanji, I have to say that reading is the best way to retain them. The problem with reading is it is not structured towards learning them. So, I find myself studying cards and reading works best for me right now.

When studying them off of cards, I am pretty much just going by grade level, until I find myself having trouble remembering one. When that happens, I'll look for similar ones that either share a radical, or share a sound element. Compare and contrast is pretty helpful when constantly forgetting one. I also write them from time to time to make sure that I am not assuming I know one when actually I have mistook it for a similar looking one.

If you have no time constraint and are learning for the enjoyment of it, I would recommend just reading full time. I know everyone hates that answer, but it's really the best way. For some reason, students love lists, and people really should learn to do without them at some point.

nekojita said:

Why not link the kanji to Japanese vocabulary, which is how you're (hopefully) going to use them anyway? e.g. remember 力 = ちから、入力 = にゅうりょく (and the meanings of those words, of course). One way of testing yourself is by using 漢検 style practice sheets which are all over the internet (for example here). Primarily they test kanji to kana/kana to kanji testing in context (e.g. 休日はピクニックに行く - give reading for 休日 - or 会場のでぐちはこちらだ - give right kanji for でぐち).

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Hmm, speaking of vocab: if I learn kanji in the order of Jouyou, are there lists of compounds specific for each Kanji Kentei level? This sounds kind of stupid, but I can't find any specific lists of compounds that the test is limited to, even though it's formally limited to a specific subset of Kanji. It's not like I am planning to take the test, but I just want to organize my learning, in a way.

I mean, I am sure there are some compounds consisting of *only* kanji at a specific Jouyou level, that are still too difficult for that Jouyou level. For example, I bet you wouldn't expect to see "ﾂ人窶禿? on a Kanji Kentei 10 exam, even though both of those kanji are Jouyou 1, since that doesn't seem like a very common compound (or would you?).

BrianLewis said:

For some reason, students love lists, and people really should learn to do without them at some point.

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I'm not sure if you've ever seen people do it, but it's the same reason people sometimes cover up part of a page when reading a complicated text. Some people just get overwhelmed by the sheer volume of kanji that exists.

For example, a (relatively) small list like the Jouyou 1 kanji seems like it could help keep one's attention focused on a particular subset, in order to at least learn that much. By the time one starts learning kanji, one should have a solid handle on katakana and hiragana, and the amount of Jouyou 1 kanji is lower than amount of kana!

I mean, why do Japanese kids have Jouyou lists they memorize instead of just learning from reading?

BrianLewis said:

The problem with reading is it is not structured towards learning them. ... If you have no time constraint and are learning for the enjoyment of it, I would recommend just reading full time.

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Wait a sec, those two sentences appear to contradict each other! So is reading good for learning or bad for learning?

Either way, thanks, because you gave me a good idea - one can just learn kanji in whatever way and stop worrying about retention, since reading will basically just take care of retention. I have TONS of stuff I would enjoy reading in Japanese and keep finding more, so that is absolutely not a problem for me. I already read and mostly understand manga with furigana, and I'm sure that the things I read can only broaden from here once I know more than just a hundred kanji or so.

I don't think there are any vocabulary lists for something like the 漢検, although since they are aimed at native speakers the vocabulary and sentences in the first few levels is presumably not beyond what a child of the appropriate age. So no references to mergers & acquisitions in tests aimed at primary school kids, but 人目につく or 一人目 would probably be acceptable.

The jouyou list mainly provides some order for the education system to define what kids should know and what is allowed to be tested. It's not that Japanese kids don't pick up kanji outside the classroom, and plenty of kids will be reading ahead of their year, but what about the kids who don't read much?

why do Japanese kids have Jouyou lists they memorize instead of just learning from reading?

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Do you think they just get given a list of all the kanji in the year and then memorise them in order? The list is for reference, just like a list of SAT vocabulary doesn't mean that every word there has to be learnt by rote. Of course kids are reading in school (and writing) - kanji is only one part of the Japanese-language curriculum and there are other subjects which will use kanji in textbooks/handouts. But they also need to be taught things like correct stroke order, and some of the jouyou would simply not come up in anything your average teenager will read of their own volition.

In practice many people complain that kids these days aren't able to read/write kanji properly (also, they should get off my lawn).

I mean, why do Japanese kids have Jouyou lists they memorize instead of just learning from reading?

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I don't like the "Japanese kids" comparison that language learners like to make. Kids already know the vocabulary and the context to use each word. All they learn is how the word looks. You can take that approach if you want -becoming fluent before learning how to read or write- or you are going to have to choose a different approach.

Wait a sec, those two sentences appear to contradict each other! So is reading good for learning or bad for learning?

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Do you have a timetable? If you have to learn by a specific date, you should read and study. If you learn for fun, just read.