Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?

Originally Posted by Emoni
This isn't exactly going the direction I had hoped...

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I knew thet from begining...

Better than what Japan does with English, but that is not the point, is it? Please don't confuse the issue.

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I think it is a kind of intensive language course, right?
it is impossible for ordinal high school.

as far as Japanese landuage is prohibited....

Where did this random thought come from? Your own lack of critical evaluation skills seem to have brought this up, caster. I'm lost.

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it is easy way to study the language in natives.
however i cant understand the Foreigner who stay in Japan more than two years cant speak Japanese well . how about you?

Foreigners have won it, too, including cell biologists, Jane Goodall, Noam Chomsky, etc.

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Do you think that they arise only from creativity and critical thinking?

Emoni said:

There is a chance that there is a language problem here I guess. I'm not following caster's logic either.
Caster, if you could, feel free to post in Japanese if you think that would express what you are trying to say better. I know I can't say everything I want in Japanese... not even close.

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if you are good at japanese, you should write in Japanese forum because of Question "Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?"

what do you need here to get right answer?

Emoni;
Japanese college is kind of four years vacation except law, science and certain speciality feilds.
humanities, social sciences, and fine arts is **** field and useless.
To learn the real world is more important for them.
it mean part time job( like washig dishes in restaurant , construction laborer...) , to make a connection and hobby in the future..

The problem is what you will do in four years for dream.
in order to learn critical thinking in university? I dont think so.
I learnt it through that well in the real tangle of youth
day time in university was a sleeping time for me though I could get so many friends and connection as a treasure. which is better?

Well, well, well...I am, and then I'm not surprized. This seems like a fair enough subject to discuss, even debate. . . but let's not get all tangled up in a mess of disconnected argumentive jabs and plunges, please gentlemen (and well, we have yet any ladies, so I'll stop here). [caster51 san, I ask for your best efforts here please, and it is very clear that your first post (#2) was overprotective without due cause]

Yes, critical thinking is a frame of mind which needs to be implemented in the earlier years of education. It is something which needs to begin at home, actually. . . rather than in the public (or private) school system. It is something that I have focused on in working with my boys, whose public education obviously has lacked greatly in that area.

Now as for the university level, I think we'll find a bit of a spread, yes, but just what would be the average, it seems, may truthfully be that critical thinking is still under applied. ① The OP was very clear in pointing out that we are looking at gross averages here, so no one should misconstrue that. I agree, and some in the medical fields I have had the pleasure of working with--including professor emeriti--also agree, that too much of the higher education format here in Japan is 'a vacation' as caster51 has posed above.

What might be done, therefore, to implement motivation for students of higher education here in Japan to more broadly activate themselves? This is one major issue which the Monbusho has been putting on universities these days, and one which our institution is working on with deeper and more involvement with facuty development as well as staff development. Critical thinking is the goal. Critical thinking is what we are trying to apply so as to spur the students earlier into a more active learning frame of mind.

There will have to be a tie between critical thinking at large, and creativity--it simply goes without saying--but just how strong that tie is, or in what area is lies, is something I've yet to think about.

Let's see. Caster51 san, you are, if I am not mistaken, in the education field, correct?


① I use 'applied' because I'd rather think of the frame of mind that critical thinking is, as something that is more of an acquired thing, than a learned thing, and thus application of that frame of mind by the 'educators' will be picked up on by the 'educatees.'

Let's see. Caster51 san, you are, if I am not mistaken, in the education field, correct?

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i think an indinidual critical thinking is not gotton from academic field such like university.
the problem is they dont know the real world

for example, even OP does not come out from education.
it came out merely from his comparison.

Let me re-word (use different words to help in understanding) that; are you a teacher, caster51 san? It seems I recall that from somewhere in the past.

You are partly correct with that claim there, caster51 san, as far as I have considered it. Critical thinking (which can overlap, but need not be totally equal to individualism) primarily is not a subject, like math, art, or PE, but is a mode of activity of mind applied towards the act and state of knowing. Critical thinking needs to start from pre-school.

Marsman;
I am just an invester as self-styled and runing of family business.
it is enogh for me to understand the stock market articles and MLB in English..
as for investing stock , it is easy to learn the critical thinking as usual..
if you do business youself, critical thinking is useless at all until getting a success

Thank you for your response. Yes, I understand the hardships in 'working' (so to speak) in a second language--if all those papers from administration, education department, and job-hunting support were in English, it'd help somewhat.

In the education arena, here in Japan, I have (in written comments to my son's teachers), and would suggest that the teachers (who really are over-worked anyway, only adding to the loss) challenge various aspects of what they teach before the students. This was at the jr. highschool level.

In that questioning and challenging so as to affirm or dislodge a claim or theory or point in case on a matter of understanding, is what critical thinking is, the application of critical thinking will encourage students to take a more active role in searching and verifying or refutting--this is a healthier learning style.

One side point of interest here, if I may, is that I have always interpreted the proverb that Mike Cash has raised, as equalling that of the Japanese proverb that JimmySeal has raised. I can see a different interpretation, but which is more commonly taken, the negative or the positive? (positive as in 'getting attention in a postive way' while yet keeping the whole functioning properly)

all we know the critical thinking is not a mere complaint and dissatisfaction.
the critical thinking is needed for improvment and evolution by trial and error.
so i understand critical thinking is the trial and error of experiment
indeed, if there is the lack.., it is impossible to kaizen in the system as the Japanese motto...
I think Japan is challenging more than others though the result is not my business:sorry:

Unfortunately, ,The current state of the education of Japan is worse than before because of too many individual critical thinking of the monster kids

caster51 said:

Unfortunately, ,The current state of the education of Japan is worse than before because of too many individual critical thinking of the monster kids

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...

Want to explain how? Dare I ask...

Honestly caster, I don't believe you have an understanding of what "critical thinking" is, especially from an academic or educational standpoint.

I'm going to step out on a limb here. I've often heard the goal and hope of Japanese education is to instill a motivation to learn. Whereas I dare say that the goal of Western higher education (university level and prior to it) is to instill an understanding of critical and analytical thinking and evaluation. It is absolutely vital for graduate studies I believe.

I believe it does exist in Japan, but in a much lower degree than Western education systems. Keep in mind, I'm NOT saying that it exists in a strong degree in American primary education, but does exist in some form along with emphasis on other things such as individual creativity, and independent thought. However, I don't want to derail anything as those are seperate topics. I will say that in my opinion, and others may be able to support me on this, critical thinking skills tend to be the corner stone of university education in regards to research and cuts to the core to the true meaning of "education."

大学院を修了しても「２人に１人」は定職に就けず、「フリーター博士」は１万２０００人以上。専任教員を夢見ながら、非常勤講師やコンビニ店員、肉体労働で食いつなぐ。

Only one out of two Ph. Ds. can get a full time position. More than 12000 of Dr. Freeter dreaming of a "full-time postion" are estimated in Japan...
http://book.asahi.com/author/TKY200711140234.html

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Not now, but there was a special payment exemption program who won the government scholarship only when they met certain criteria.
Some lucky full-time researchers enjoy the exemption. On the other hands, many Dr. Freeters have to get smaller salary and pay back huge amount of 10 year worth scholarship.

But is this (post-doc) only Japan's problem?

Stanford University and School of Medicine Minimum Annual Pay as of October 1, 2008
$40,785
Funding Rates and Guidelines | Office of Postdoctoral Affairs

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For non-American researchers, it sounds good to be a researching slave for 40000USD, and for them, they also might get some reputation to do great researches working under a great professor in the US when they return to their home country.
This is what you call the American (I don't use "Western" here) critical and analytical thinking and evaluation.

I would say, pipokun san, that the matter you have presented, actually, misses the mark of the intent of the object of investigation here. Faults in any education system will exist, and the OP has allowed room for that, so it would not be of concern here, really. Also, while the OP does bring up a comparative attitude (American university compared to Japanese university), the main drive does focus on the Japanese education system's adherence to, or failure to adhere to a program of critical thinking instillment.

I do not reason that there is any need here to take any agressive-like, defensive position towards the topic nor the OP, and would like to encourage fair-play there, by all.

Again, I would argue that critical thinking should begin before public education, at home, in the early forming years--but that will depend upon the parents and immediate family situations, as well as society in general.

The elementary schools in our area, at least, show signs of being very regimental in structure and that reaches down to the student level as well. Emphasis is placed on a certain procedure for certain events or general execution of certain school matters. Critical thinking would allow students to test that without fear of reprisal from the teaching staff. Critical thought process, if used in the school, would allow the teaching staff itself to test what comes down from the board of education--all the way up to the monbusho. Of course, that is not going to happen, so critical thinking as a natural part of the Japanese school system, is very weak. (And I'm speaking in non-comparative terms here, other than what I reason as being the ideal setting for learning orientated environments.) This is one example.

If you try to do the fair-play, we have to consider the unfairness in the public education in the US that kids in property tax rich areas have better opportunity as well, though I am fully aware that the critical mindset is not necessarily the result of public spending.

It is true that Japan spends much fewer money on the public education. It is more equality-oriented, so lack of the critical thinking process, in the name of equal opportunity, in the public school brings more students (parents, actually) to choose private junior high school options in Japan.

It might be the best if you established a school which would give kids...
the Finnish problem-solving skill,
the Indian mathematical skill,
the Chinese competitive environment,
free public education in some European countries without being threatened by paying back huge student loans,
and more
under the poor public spending like Japan.

But it is rather challenging to establish such an "if-then" school.

Where to begin? Sigh.

caster: (re: Kyoto Prize winners) Do you think that they arise only from creativity and critical thinking?
me: No, but they wouldn't have won the prize without such attributes.

caster: (re: using Japanese) what do you need here to get right answer?
me: Clear English that stays on topic.

caster to emoni: Japanese college is kind of four years vacation except law, science and certain speciality feilds.
me: I used to think that, but I work in a top science university. It's still largely a vacation. Kids sleep in class, and their research is mostly just what the major prof wants, not anything creative or individual. Grads get hired because of ties between advisors and industry, not because of creativity or grades.

caster: in order to learn critical thinking in university? I dont think so.
I learnt it through that well in the real tangle of youth
day time in university was a sleeping time for me though I could get so many friends and connection as a treasure. which is better?
me: Off-topic response. Besides, how do you learn critical thinking as a youth?

caster: the problem is they dont know the real world
me: Actually, I and social pundits agree, but that still doesn't answer the OP's questions about critical thinking vs. creativity.

caster: I am just an invester as self-styled and runing of family business.
it is enogh for me to understand the stock market articles and MLB in English..
as for investing stock , it is easy to learn the critical thinking as usual..
me: If it is that easy, then all investors would be rich.

caster: if you do business youself, critical thinking is useless at all until getting a success
me: Please explain this more fully. It says you don't need critical thinking until AFTER you are a success, which I disagree with, but I really don't understand you.

caster: the critical thinking is needed for improvment and evolution by trial and error.
so i understand critical thinking is the trial and error of experiment
me: This is the closest you have come to providing your definition of critical thinking, and I think it shows just how strange and different it is from the rest of us (unless you can explain it better). Critical thinking is logic applied to resolving questions and problems, so yes, sometimes it involves experimentation, but you contradict yourself in how you got it (your youth), how important it is (you say it's not important until after one has achieved success), and that for doing your type of business it is easy to learn (a point that the majority of people in your field cannot support).

caster: Unfortunately, ,The current state of the education of Japan is worse than before because of too many individual critical thinking of the monster kids
me: Ok, that is your opinion, and I would agree that in part it is true. Realize that such statements have been made for thousands of years, though. We are trying to determine whether critical thinking and/or creativity can be taught for the benefit of Japanese people, not how today's youths are rebelling ("classroom chaos" is one example). Please stay on topic.

pipokun talks of small salaries for PhD's and seems to relate/equate that to critical thinking. I am lost there. Einstein had his greatest moments of creativity and critical thinking working in a patent office. Money (ie, salary) does not equate with critical thinking, nor how it can be fostered.

MarsMan says critical thinking should start at home before public education. Perhaps it does already in every culture, but if you want to teach it formally with people who have studied it, you need to present it in schools. The Japanese social life in all sectors of education (K-12 to university) deals with more of the social aspects of living and working together, instead of developing academics and inventive minds. Emoni's question, I believe, is whether Japan can add the development I just mentioned to its curriculum. I wouldn't expect the country to change or eliminate its current cultural style where students learn how to live and work together, because it is a fundamental part of the social and business structure, but to improve upon people's ability to be more creative is definitely needed, IMO.

Wasn't it Prime Minister Mori who boldly stated that one of Japan's goals was to obtain a certain (high) number of Nobel prizes in the next X years? http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4320903-108018,00.html Wasn't it he or Koizumi that said Japan would strive to be the top IT country in the world in just 5 years? Koizumi recognized the need to make English (the lingua franca of the world's scientific community, and nearly the same for the international business world) mandatory as early as the elementary schools (yet Abe quashed that, and Fukuda has done nothing to change matters)?

More links from Japanese Nobel prize winners' thoughts on creativity in Japan:
www.chem.uic.edu/marek/trips/japan/esakispeech.doc (2001)
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/2001/noyori-autobio.html (note his references to education abroad and the influence of western thinking)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4320903-108018,00.html (last paragraph)

Some things Japan is doing to foster more creative thinking.
http://www.cdb.riken.jp/en/04_news/articles/070906_yomiuri_nhk.html (I want to know more about this!)
http://wwics.si.edu/topics/pubs/asiarpt121.pdf (2004, covers some GOOD business practices and noble goals)


P.S. Has anyone else even glanced at the links I provided? Would love to hear your responses.

According to your critical thinking skill, "Western" seems to be categorized into a sort of one country...

What I wanted to say was not money which researchers earn, but even in one country, the US, public spending on education is based on the property tax which kids have no choice of.
And I simply think better educational environments may be a better education.

P.S. Has anyone else even glanced at the links I provided? Would love to hear your responses.

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Sorry, I don't read the provided links, but nobody thinks the Japanese system would be perfect, so there are many kaizen activities.

Correct me if I am wrong, the poor English education is what Emoni wanted to discuss here. Speak it out loud in other thread.

Critical thinking requires objectivity and logic, both of which took me some time to learn on the net. I would say that the Canadian school system better promotes critical thinking, with debate about hot topics and stuff, still, there are a lot of people that are more driven by theiur emotion and what they want to believe than what's real (I include myself in there, as I wasn't terribly objective when I first hit the forums).

Logic is a whole other skill that some people do well at, but others don't take the time to learn.

I'd say that with the emphasis on getting along here, most people don't challenge each other's opinions and beliefs for fear of disrupting the harmony and stuff. Ask a lot of Japanese about a contraversial topic, a lot will simply say that some people believe this, and others believe that, and that it's a diffcult issue. They don't give their own opinion on that topic.

What I found since I started debating on the net, was that having people challenge my opinions and beliefs was a great way to look at my opinions and beliefs and see if they were somehow off the mark. A lot of my beliefs and opinions have gone through incredible changes since hitting the forums.

I would like to point out here, pipokun san, that somehow you have got it wrong:


The OP is clear enough on that, and the general line of topic is clear enough, actually. Now I am a little puzzled over why you have responded the way you have in post numbers 38, and 40.

This has almost nothing to do educational budgets. We should try to refrain from comparisons--we are talking only of the situation in Japan. Let's all please keep this in mind.

I agree with pipokun that better educational environments make for better education (and that begins at home) and that one way of improving that environment here in Japan would possibly be to implement more critical thinking activities from elementary school--little by little.

If, in Japan, on average, this mode of thinking process had been applied in educational settings, then it would be much more active in child raising (in circumstances where parents have gone through that system fully). That would mean pre-school and then elementary school up. Therefore while I agree that it has to applied (thus taught) in schools, it should be applied (thus taught) at home too--and firstly.

Glenski said:

Dave,
I am not ridiculing caster. I deal with poorly written English every day in the university where I work (and I handled even worse in the 4 years I taught HS here). I simply cannot grasp what he says, and moreover he seems to persist in an elitist sort of attitude about Japan. It is the latter I am more calling him out for. Clearer posts would help, of course, but I think there is more to it than that.

As for writing in Japanese, please, I urge you NOT to do that! There are plenty of people here who could contribute but cannot read Japanese at all. The forum is largely in English, and we have a separate forum for Japanese. I suggest the mods take a stand here, re: language to be used vs. replies that do not stay on topic.

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Actually I tend to agree with the Japanese writting thing, I don't know why I suggested that. And thanks for clearing that up about the poor English comment I said, I was just checking to see if we were on the same page.

If learning critical thinking means learning logic, analysis, evaluation, cognitive skills, objectiveness, etc. it should be taught in Japan.

Someone mentioned debate, but if the classroom application of critical thinking is debate, it's actually ineffective in promoting that mode of thinking. It's weak in certain areas.

1. It locks participants into "either-or" "right-wrong" "good-bad" positions, limiting alternative possibilities that don't fit into either category. It also largely ignores creative solutions to problems.

2. Certain competitiveness in debate encourages people to find fault with the opponents' position even where there's no fault. Like someone said, people just insist their position no matter what, just for the sake of consistency, so lack of intellectual humility, lack of rational self-reflection are weaknesses. (Like caster said it.).

3. No consensus building, when a consensus is required.

Actually, Japan does better in these areas, I believe.

Classical debate is outdated. What's the best way to teach/learn critical thinking in Japan?

reset,
I've encountered debate in Japan. It is very different from western style. Compare Japan's style to bowling. Everyone waits while one person delivers his ball (topic). Then the next person, and so on. In western style (informal, anyway), it is more dynamic like tennis.

The 2 difficult parts of western style debating for Japanese are:
1) refuting statements, even if they have time to do so.
2) refuting statements when they DON'T have time.

Believe me, I've tried. I can point out a guy who does this in high school with moderate success, but it takes a heckuva lot of planning and explanation. Most people get only a smattering of the process (which is still partially based on critical thinking to make or refute points), but that's about all.

Reset: I disagree with point one, as debaters who aren't assigned a side often do think about what was said in a debate later and change positions on it. They may try to hold on to whatever position they had going into the debate, but then a lot of them also change positions after a debate.

Also, I think people do try to find fault, I agree, but there's only so myuch fault one can try to find with a more correct position. You'll notice that in certain debates, that one side runs out of attacks and defenses. Is it just because of the quality of the debaters? I'd have to say that in a few cases it is just the quality of the debaters, but in others, one side clearly has a more correct position.

In a Tibetan monestary, debate is done before others, so most people can judge for themselves who has the more logical argument. Competition sharpens skills... there's not really a fear that debate will cause 'good and bad' sides, or that, and people can see who lacks humilty or rational self-reflection.. so there's little doubt as to who has got those skills and who hasn't... but the again, those that don't really have it do improve their critical thinking... the environment demands it.

Lastly, Japan lags behind the west for so many reasons. In America, there's a lot of contraversy, and lots of people with strong opinions, however it is a country that makes a lot of advances in the sciences and other areas, in Japan, they simply follow the steps of the western world, and in a lot of areas, like law, they're ten years behind the western countries. I don't know that we should give up debate and advancement for the sake of consensus... as is done here in Japan.

"Japan vs the west" ---I don't think that comparison is a good one.

Japan is only ONE country, the West is MANY countries.
Japan's population is fairly static, the Western population is highly mobile.
Japan needs more active effort to import ideas from the outside world, the West is just sitting there, and new people, new ideas come in.

A major correction. Sorry for my poor English.

pipokun said:

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Correct me if I am wrong, the poor English education is NOT what Emoni wanted to discuss here. Speak it out loud in other thread.

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What I wanted to say was "if you want to discuss the English education, please go to other thread".

I don't know if you have any experience with the school system in Japan, reset san, but your presentation on debate is faulty, largely due to missing the 'exercise in thinking' part of the matter.

To debate, a person has to be able to think in a critical mode in order to deduce conclusions from facts of data--evidence (and even at times be able to do so in determining the validity of such). A person has to be able to debate both the pro and the con of an issue or proposition. A person will have to learn more than what can be learned simply by rote memory.
One text I have used and still do, kind of puts it like this (which has bearing):


While this is a specific example, the general principle is what I have intended to appeal to here. This underscores the importance of thinking critically.

Creativity is very much tied in with imagination. Imagination, the greater bulk of the better evidence tells us, is very much tied in with a certain brain state wherein the right hemsphere tends more so to 'dress up' certain picked up and associated left-brain sequences of pure data, and often runs in positive correlation with non-norm, abstract bent brain states--very high degrees of imagination being associate with what would other wise be mental illnesses.

When we talk of critical thinking, therefore, we would be focusing less on imagination (creativity) and more on the good ole left hemisphere matter of sequential data in space/time--ration and all its branches. Therefore critical thinking applying creative conception would prove to better build and organize developed thinking processes than creative conception applying rote data would; if that's worded correctly. It could be alikened, as I see it, to teaching one to fish, to eat, rather than simply giving one a fish to eat.



窶｡@ Physiology of Behavior by Neil R. Carlson, 7th ed. 2001, p23

It is true that the debating skill is one of the problem solving skills for your critical mindset, but the kaizen activities and other problem solving styles are also the tools for thinking critically, aren't they?
It is great of Glenski to try to teach a debate form in English. But does the poor debating skill in a foreign language mean the lack of critical thinking?

Revenant said something that Japanese avoid discussing (maybe) touchy topics.
It is partly true that I can hardly imagine a business situation where you can freely discuss controversial issues in your office. Also, I cannot imagine the situation in Canada/the US, either.