Japanese protectionism & ethnocentrism

Maciamo said:

Japan has been a very ethnocentric and protectionist country (at least) since the 1950's.

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Tell me more about your theory here.
Your answer would be "education", wouldn't it? Maybe you're partly right, but I suppose I posted some ideas about J teacher's union before...

No chance for Ishihara to be PM anymore.

pipokun said:

Tell me more about your theory here.
Your answer would be "education", wouldn't it? Maybe you're partly right, but I suppose I posted some ideas about J teacher's union before...

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Protectionism has nothing to do with education. It's a fact that Japanese laws prohibited foreign companies from operating or opening factories/business in Japan until a few years ago (still now, they need a partnership with a Japanese company, or take over a Japanese company, as Vodaphone did with J-phone).

Only a few major US companies were allowed (McDonald, KFC, Coca Cola, IBM, Intel, JP Morgan, Merryll Lynch...) under the special treaty between the US and Japan after WWII. Other companies have to export to Japan and face prohibitive, anti-competition custom taxes. Why do you think that all the imported European products are so expensive in Japan, but not in the US (e.g. European brand clothes are cheaper in Hawaii than in Japan, although it is more far away to deliver and has a lower demand/population).

Foreign car manufacturers have never been allowed to this day to open factories in Japan, even when taking over Japanese companies (e.g. Renault took over Nissan, and GM took over Mazda, but neither have factories in Japan's juicy 128-million-people market).

As for ethnocentrism, it's in the culture to have a dual approach uchi vs soto, and Japan vs rest of the world (or naijin vs gaijin). Japanese people also typically first ask foreigners about Japan and Japanese things or people, not about their own country (this comes after, and always as a comparison to Japan). When I compare Japan, I like comparing it to China, the US, France, the UK, etc. not just my home country. So, it's a kind of ethnocentrism to always bring everything back to Japan (some other countries do the same, like the US or France).

Maciamo said:

Protectionism has nothing to do with education. It's a fact that Japanese laws prohibited foreign companies from operating or opening factories/business in Japan until a few years ago (still now, they need a partnership with a Japanese company, or take over a Japanese company, as Vodaphone did with J-phone).

Only a few major US companies were allowed (McDonald, KFC, Coca Cola, IBM, Intel, JP Morgan, Merryll Lynch...) under the special treaty between the US and Japan after WWII. Other companies have to export to Japan and face prohibitive, anti-competition custom taxes. Why do you think that all the imported European products are so expensive in Japan, but not in the US (e.g. European brand clothes are cheaper in Hawaii than in Japan, although it is more far away to deliver and has a lower demand/population).

Foreign car manufacturers have never been allowed to this day to open factories in Japan, even when taking over Japanese companies (e.g. Renault took over Nissan, and GM took over Mazda, but neither have factories in Japan's juicy 128-million-people market).

As for ethnocentrism, it's in the culture to have a dual approach uchi vs soto, and Japan vs rest of the world (or naijin vs gaijin). Japanese people also typically first ask foreigners about Japan and Japanese things or people, not about their own country (this comes after, and always as a comparison to Japan). When I compare Japan, I like comparing it to China, the US, France, the UK, etc. not just my home country. So, it's a kind of ethnocentrism to always bring everything back to Japan (some other countries do the same, like the US or France).

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The reason I asked you to post your opinion about Japanese economy here was...
1) I didn't expect this thread is so active.
2) I think all your posts are your joking threads.

So in what's the special treaty or conspiracy the long-lasting European companies have operated here?
And what if many European companies would establish local factories in Japan? Are European generous to lose their jobs? I suppose you know much more about their branding strategies than I...

pipokun said:

So in what's the special treaty or conspiracy the long-lasting European companies have operated here?

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Sorry, I don't understand your question. It's not a conspiracy. Japan just has laws to prevent foreign companies to open a branch in Japan. For example, the only foreign bank allowed to have "almost" regular operations in Japan is Citibank (but there are restrictions; e.g. no business bank account can be open there). This is under the special treaty between the US and Japan. Other foreign bank may have a representative branch (HSBC, Lloyds, BNP-Paribas, etc. have one) but people can't open a bank account there. Until about 3 years ago, it was not even allowed for a foreign company to purchase (take over) a Japanese company. Since the law changed, many Japanese companies have been taken over (e.g. J-phone/Vodafone, Shinsei Bank, Tokyo Star Bank, Nissan, Mazda, Seiyu...).

However, Japanese companies have always been allowed to have car factories in Europe and America. That is why Japanese cars are cheap on each continent, while European or American cars are much more expensive in Japan as they need to be imported and there are heavy custom taxes.

And what if many European companies would establish local factories in Japan? Are European generous to lose their jobs? I suppose you know much more about their branding strategies than I...

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Well, European people would not lose their job. Each company would have a factory in Europe for the European market, and another one in Japan for the Japanese market. This would create a lot of employment in Japan, but would also hurt a lot Japanese car makers, and that is why it is still prohibited. But anyway, if Western companies take over Japanese car makers, these companies are not Japanese anymore, so what's the difference ? National pride I guess. Imagine if BMW or Peugeot manufactured cars in Japan; these cars would cost about half of what they cost now in Japan, so much more Japanese would buy them as many people are already willing to pay a lot more for imported ones.

I feel that the situation since the 1950's is similar to the "Unequal Treaties" between Japan and Western power in the Meiji Era, except that the situation is reverse. Japan has the right to do operate anywhere in the world, but no foreign companies can operate normally in Japan.

I've never heard of the financial sector in Europe owns car factories there.
Is it fair/reasonable for me to say "No custom duty on car or electronics in Japan. I don't know why the protectionism on agricultural products in Europe"?
Your answer is surely "offtopic".
I suppose your way of argument, focusing too much upon politics and culture, onto economic matters would be typical one since 80'.
Where am I now? Subforum of the Japanese economy here?
I know your country Belgium has been fair when it comes to Japanese products, esp., cars, though.

And Godiva in 100yen shops? Sounds nice to me, but the company would not do it. So for, your favorite car maker, BMW, does not seem threatend by the new Lexus dealership in Japan with their good and long branding strategy...

I think it may be better your country invites Asian textile factories in your country for the purpose of easing the friction than exporting good Belgian arms. This must be irrevant here, I know.

Before WWII, there were giant conglomerates called 'Zaibatsu' which were family-owned businesses encompassing various industries to make a cohesive self-sufficient company. These Zaibatsu were given contracts by the government to produce stuff, and consisted of a great deal of the Japanese manufacturing base.

Think Mistubishi who I am pretty-sure was the company that produced most of the Japanese warships during WWII.

After WWII, the US banned the existence of the Zaibatsu. This caused Japanese companies to re-organize themselves into conglomerates called Keiretsu, which were pretty-much Zaibatsu version 2. For instance, Mistubishi could no longer own it's steel, paper, motors, etc. divisions all under one giant company, so they split them up into multiple companies -- Mistubishi Paper, Mitsubishi Steel, Mitsubishi motors, etc. The companies then cross-owned stock so that Mitsubishi held a controlling interest in every Mitsubishi company, allowing for little stock-holder interference in business decisions.

Through these Keiretsu, the businesses formed long term business models which depended on the exporting sector with a more expensive domestic market free from foreign consumption. That way Mitsubishi, for instance, could gain ground in foreign car markets, while Japanese domestic markets would also buy Mitsubishi because of home markets protected from foreign products.

At the beginning, this strategy worked great, as the Yen was cheap allowing for the manufacturing/export sector to profit greatly from selling Yen-made cars for the strong US dollar, and pouring it back into Yen-made cars. Because of the cheap Yen coupled with import taxes, foreign companies had trouble making in-roads to the Japanese market, and in general didn't bother that much. The Japanese economic model is referred to as 'embedded mercantilism' or 'neo-mercantilism' which you can look up, but basically amounted to a revisiting of old-school mercantilist economics as the basis for economic growth and competition on an international scale.

And it was successful. Too successful. As the Japanese economy grew, it became more and more dependent on that foreign market to sustain that growth, but because of the currency balancing itself, the profit margins on exports kept reducing, making the strategy less-than-perfect due to the weak domestic sector. Since the Yen was stronger, it would make more sense to sell these things they were producing for Yen, but the domestic market just couldn't make up for the drop in export profits.

Basically, the bubble formed and popped because the Japanese failed to correct their market and their strategy when they were actually able to compete on a global scale, and fought harder to protect domestic industry because it was starting to flounder. By protecting the domestic market, they created all sorts of other problems, and still had the problems caused by a mercantilist system. In Japan, a company's strength is still measured on an asset-based system (rather than a profit/market-share/abstract value one like the US and most other major markets).

Basically, the Japanese were too successful and rather than acknowledging that the success wouldn't last and that they needed to change the system to create stability, they closed their eyes to the obvious and the bubble burst as a result putting them in this horrid state of economics for the past couple decades. The way the Japanese manage to make a profit using the model is by buying trillions of dollars in US bonds to keep the exchange-rate between the Yen and the dollar manageable for their export strategies.

The slow changes that are being made (allowing foreign companies to buy Japanese companies, allowing some economic reform such as Koizumi's recent Postal Savings changes) are good starts, but are really inadequate for widespread change.

So basically, Japan is still using an economic model for a developing nation when they are the second largest economy in the world, and refuse to change what used to be a good thing. Very silly. And I'm assuming that this is what Maciamo means by 'protectionist.'

Pierrot le Fou, thanks for this insightful history of the economy of post-war Japan. I had exactly this in mind when replying to Pipokun. I wrote a few articles on the Japanese economy myself, and I have also described the Japanese economic and legal system as "good for a developing nation" but now needing serious reforms - one of them being opening up the country to foreign companies.

The interesting thing is that China seems to be following the Japanese model to a point right now, with the same cheap exports of questionable legality (also known as dumping), and the dependence on exports to markets both small and big abroad to gain a foothold in the world economy. The difference is that the Chinese seem to be slowly letting the Yuan valuate in steps, as they recently changed it's value, and keep rumouring about doing it, while the Japanese actively fought any change in the value of its currency to the dollar.

Hopefully China will keep letting it's economy develop healthily, and will slowly allow in more foreign goods while loosening protectionist policies as their domestic industries gain a fair market share and are able to remain competitive on a rather even international playing field.

I really wish I had learned Chinese now. Ah well...

360JPY to 80JPY/USD

Pierrot le Fou said:

The interesting thing is that China seems to be following the Japanese model to a point right now, with the same cheap exports of questionable legality (also known as dumping), and the dependence on exports to markets both small and big abroad to gain a foothold in the world economy. The difference is that the Chinese seem to be slowly letting the Yuan valuate in steps, as they recently changed it's value, and keep rumouring about doing it, while the Japanese actively fought any change in the value of its currency to the dollar.

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I don't know how solvet the US bond would be in the future or how long Japan keep buying the bond, but it is unusual for export-driven nations to buy the US bond to support their export.
I bet the US govenment supports its neo-mercantilism policy, relatively strong dollar policy, till asian nations incl. China and middle earsten nations opens their markets. *I don't use the term, "democracy or freedom", here.

Hopefully China will keep letting it's economy develop healthily, and will slowly allow in more foreign goods while loosening protectionist policies as their domestic industries gain a fair market share and are able to remain competitive on a rather even international playing field.

I really wish I had learned Chinese now. Ah well...

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Wondering if people can manipulate the divine hands.

Protectionism and exclusion of foreign markets is a constant thing here. They want the Louis Vuitton bags for the sexworkers but only under certain Japanese conditions. Let me give you an example of the thinking. A German friend of mine who has been in J. for over 20 years told me that in the 70's a European ski manufacturer wanted to enter the market here and they were told...get this....European skis aren't good for Japanese snow!! True story Japanese snow....WHAT???? So the 4 seasons and Japanese snow are special?

No wonder you are not able to manufacture your product here you just wouldn't want to if you were a sensible/rational businessman/woman

wow...i'm learning about japanese history at the moment and this really gives me a review of what my teacher has been teaching me these few months.

Japanese (Korean)and Chinese have no brakes so their economies will hit a BIG wall one day. I'm not saying that western economies are better but if you copy too much then......

I'm wondering, as I watch the hearings on the US "Big Three" bailout situation, how much of this has to do with Japanese protectionism. Before we had Japanese cars being imported, the unions demanded more and more from American auto manufacturers. Suddenly, (okay, not suddenly) we need to bail out GM, Ford and Chrysler. If we had been, or were to become, even half as protectionist as Japan is, we might not need a bailout. What do you think?

MOZEE said:

I'm wondering, as I watch the hearings on the US "Big Three" bailout situation, how much of this has to do with Japanese protectionism. Before we had Japanese cars being imported, the unions demanded more and more from American auto manufacturers. Suddenly, (okay, not suddenly) we need to bail out GM, Ford and Chrysler. If we had been, or were to become, even half as protectionist as Japan is, we might not need a bailout. What do you think?

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I think the Big three simply had bad business plans, nothing related to protectionism. Much in the same way, not all Japanese automakers are doing good.

Protectionism is like sitting in your car in the garage with the windows up. You may feel nice and warm for a while, but...

I agree up to a point, but the U. S. has gone to the other extreme. We have almost no safeguards in place to protect our position in the world market.

http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/freetotrade/chap6.html

USATODAY.com - Bush plays free-trade game

Policy Today

I am trying to bring back my memory in what context or from which thread my post was separated here. I suppose it was originally more about Japan-Europe or Belgian relations, but there are so many political/economical/regulatory points of contention between Japan and the US as well.

U.S.-Japan Regulatory Reform & Competition Policy Initiative
http://www.ustr.gov/assets/World_Re...orm_Initiative/asset_upload_file931_15171.pdf

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I found an interesting request from the US, "more English-speaking maids to Japan".

IV. Consular Issues
...
B. Domestic Employee Visas. American citizens living in Japan complain that there are unreasonable restrictions on the visa issuances of business executives' personal/domestic employees. The United States requests that Japan give due consideration to such concerns within the foreign resident community and work wherever possible to find solutions to improve the situation.

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Sorry for my ignorance and I highly welcome your input here, but I've never heard of any domestic employee visa for foreigners to the US, or if any, I don't know how reasonable or friendly it would be... I don't know how much it costs to hire a bilingual domestic worker in the US, either.

In case the unreasonable restrictions include the expensive salary to hire an English speaking maid in Japan, isn't it a sort of human-trafficking if someone wants to hire an unreasonably underpaid maid from overseas?

From Japan to the US...
Recommendations by the Government of Japan to the Government of the United States Regarding Regulatory Reform and Competition Policy
http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/n-america/us/economy/report0810.pdf

窶｡Vﾂ．CONSULAR AFFAIRS
(2) Resumption of Visa Revalidation Procedures in the United States
The Government of the United States suspended the revalidation of visas at the State Department on July 16, 2004. Applicants for visa revalidation residing in the United States need to either return to Japan or visit a third country.

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If Japan did the same thing for expats living in Japan, I am 128% sure that I'd see millions of threads, "discrimination, ultra-xenophobic, protectionism, ethnocentrism, or whatever in Japan".

Similar dialogue with EU
Japan-EU Regulatory Reform Dialogue
Japan-EU Relations

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So far, there is no butler visa request for European expats.

MOZEE said:

I agree up to a point, but the U. S. has gone to the other extreme. We have almost no safeguards in place to protect our position in the world market.

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I have heard through the grapevine a bunch of new FEMA detainment camps (even renovated Japanese detainment camps) in the US, are built to house foriegn nationals who purchased US property.
They are planning to round up all foriegn nationals almost instantly and house them in these FEMA/CIA camps.
The Federal Reserve is going to print up trillions of unbacked dollars, and offer the foreign buyers 10X what they paid, or ten times the current market value of the US property they purchased.
Those who refuse to sell, will have their land and US holdings condemned and siezed according to established US inimnet domine laws.
Both will get their possesions packed for free, and a free boat ticket home with their profits and property.
They will wait in the camps until the details are finalized and their boat is ready.
The camps are to make sure these foriegn nationals do not become terrorists and attack americans in america.
(A friend who has been working preparing a FEMA camp told me this.)
The FEMA camps controversey is all over youtube.
Perhaps uncle sam is soon going protectionist too.
There seems to be a big concern lately over foriegn nationals exchanging their USD's for cheap US foreclosed property and businesses.
It appears to be a major national security issue with CIA and FEMA these days.
I just hope some pissed off foriegner doesn't slip through the cracks, and doesn't tie a bomb to themselves and decide to go visit my kids at school!!
If he is telling the truth, there will some serious stuff popping off soon over here.

MOZEE said:

I agree up to a point, but the U. S. has gone to the other extreme. We have almost no safeguards in place to protect our position in the world market.

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Foriegn held Japanese money will not buy Japanese property and businesses. It can only be used to purchase Japanese goods, gold?, and exports.

Foriegn held US dollars can currently be exchanged in for US property. Or used to be able to anyway.

Perhaps the US is getting ready to imitate Japan and fix this oversight?

kusojiji said:

Protectionism is like sitting in your car in the garage with the windows up. You may feel nice and warm for a while, but...

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You can always sell your car and home and sit outside in the rain, snow, and heat counting your money instead.

I personally would rather be in MY car in MY garage.

Scotty P. said:

I have heard through the grapevine a bunch of new FEMA detainment camps (even renovated Japanese detainment camps) in the US, are built to house foriegn nationals who purchased US property.
They are planning to round up all foriegn nationals almost instantly and house them in these FEMA/CIA camps.
The Federal Reserve is going to print up trillions of unbacked dollars, and offer the foreign buyers 10X what they paid, or ten times the current market value of the US property they purchased.
Those who refuse to sell, will have their land and US holdings condemned and siezed according to established US inimnet domine laws.
Both will get their possesions packed for free, and a free boat ticket home with their profits and property.
They will wait in the camps until the details are finalized and their boat is ready.
The camps are to make sure these foriegn nationals do not become terrorists and attack americans in america.
(A friend who has been working preparing a FEMA camp told me this.)
The FEMA camps controversey is all over youtube.
Perhaps uncle sam is soon going protectionist too.
There seems to be a big concern lately over foriegn nationals exchanging their USD's for cheap US foreclosed property and businesses.
It appears to be a major national security issue with CIA and FEMA these days.
I just hope some pissed off foriegner doesn't slip through the cracks, and doesn't tie a bomb to themselves and decide to go visit my kids at school!!
If he is telling the truth, there will some serious stuff popping off soon over here.

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I smell a troll.

Originally Posted by kusojiji View Post
Protectionism is like sitting in your car in the garage with the windows up. You may feel nice and warm for a while, but...

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You can always sell your car and home and sit outside in the rain, snow, and heat counting your money instead.
I personally would rather be in MY car in MY garage.

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HAHAHA
that whooshing sound you heard was the point sailing over your head.

nice gaijin said:

HAHAHA
that whooshing sound you heard was the point sailing over your head.

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All I know is, If Japan or anyone on earth had ALL the paper money in the world, and all that would ever be printed, along with all the useless gold on earth.

They still could not afford to buy my hat, badge, credentials, and service weapon.

These things are not for sale. You would have more of a chance buying one of my children.

Drug test, please

Scotty P. said:

I have heard through the grapevine a bunch of new FEMA detainment camps (even renovated Japanese detainment camps) in the US, are built to house foriegn nationals who purchased US property.
They are planning to round up all foriegn nationals almost instantly and house them in these FEMA/CIA camps.
The Federal Reserve is going to print up trillions of unbacked dollars, and offer the foreign buyers 10X what they paid, or ten times the current market value of the US property they purchased.
Those who refuse to sell, will have their land and US holdings condemned and siezed according to established US inimnet domine laws.
Both will get their possesions packed for free, and a free boat ticket home with their profits and property.
They will wait in the camps until the details are finalized and their boat is ready.
The camps are to make sure these foriegn nationals do not become terrorists and attack americans in america.
(A friend who has been working preparing a FEMA camp told me this.)
The FEMA camps controversey is all over youtube.
Perhaps uncle sam is soon going protectionist too.
There seems to be a big concern lately over foriegn nationals exchanging their USD's for cheap US foreclosed property and businesses.
It appears to be a major national security issue with CIA and FEMA these days.
I just hope some pissed off foriegner doesn't slip through the cracks, and doesn't tie a bomb to themselves and decide to go visit my kids at school!!
If he is telling the truth, there will some serious stuff popping off soon over here.

Click to expand...

Um... w...t...f...?

nice gaijin said:

HAHAHA
that whooshing sound you heard was the point sailing over your head.

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He still doesn't get it.

Fan said:

I smell a troll.

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I smell a raving lunatic!