Japanese Attrocities (Rape of Nanjing Comfort Women...) what is basis of denial?,

Emoni · 11 Aug 2008

This is a fairly big question, one that I've been studying for some time but tend to come up with little.

I've been to Nanjing, I've been to South Korea, I've spoken with comfort women, I've read the books, I've been to the sites, and I've seen some of the documents (both translated and untranslated). However, I'm always left wondering, what is the argument for denial by the nationalist factions in Japan? I've asked this question to those who tend to support the denial side of the argument and been given links or references to books, but what I end up with is usually illogical pasted together garbage and convoluted books that earn the low reviews they get blasted with. Either that or I get just a bunch of questionable poor youtube links. From claims of forged photographs, to hidden bank accounts, everything is loose, and mixed with hearsay. While proof for issues such as the Nanjing Massacre and comfort women issue is not undeniable, the proof that has been found by people such as Yoshimi Yoshiaki and the diary found by Iris Chang (despite her fairly lousy book), are near irrefutable.

So my question is this, and it is a difficult question: What is the basis and what is the proof for denial of the Japanese atrocities such as those above? Proof that can be juxtaposed against the proof that supports the events or calls in to question the validity without simply assumption, and claims mixed with paranoia and faith.

Thanks to anyone who is willing to share their experience and knowledge.

RolandtheHeadless · 12 Aug 2008

Most modern legal systems do not require anyone to prove their innocence. Perhaps one possible defense would be insufficient proof of the charges.

Understand, I'm just hypothesizing. From my own limited reading on this subject, it seems that most of those who have looked deeper into the subject agree these atrocities did occur.

Another possible argument is the same as that used in most criminal trials for rape. The scenario goes something like this:

Eventually the war ends, and the prostitute's services are terminated. She makes her way home to her husband or father (or perhaps forms new social bonds). Eventually someone shows up who knows her past.

"Say, weren't you a hooker for the Japanese? Why did you do that?"

And the woman has two possible answers:

1. "They forced me."

2. "I volunteered."

Which answer is the woman likely to give, regardless of the truth? Incidentally, I do recall reading somewhere that some of these Japanese nationalists were claiming the women were volunteers or professionals.

Jim

KirinMan · 12 Aug 2008

And the woman has two possible answers:

1. "They forced me."

2. "I volunteered."

Which answer is the woman likely to give, regardless of the truth? Incidentally, I do recall reading somewhere that some of these Japanese nationalists were claiming the women were volunteers or professionals.

Many people it seems who refute the accusation regarding this subject often use the argument that the women who were comfort women during the war were one of the following;
1. Paid prostitutues
2. Volunteers
3. Sold by their families into service
4. Paid better than any service member at the time, thereby justifying their work.
Oh and here is one biggie; even if the woman was coorced or forced into service once they were paid one time for their services they no longer could claim that they were not "paid" prostitutes.

Another argument used against recognition of these women is the the US used comfort women during the occupation of Japan, using brothel's set up by the Japanese Government and that the US should first apologize and pay compensation for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, plus pay compensation to Viet Nam for the war there....and the list goes on.

The point is that there will never be closure to this problem as long as Japan and some Japanese people insist upon interwinding numerous different issues into one.

caster51 · 12 Aug 2008

What is the basis and what is the proof for denial of the Japanese atrocities such as those above? Proof that can be juxtaposed against the proof that supports the events or calls in to question the validity without simply assumption, and claims mixed with paranoia and faith.

WAR DAMAGE IN THE NANKING AREA
December, 1937 to March, 1938
Dr.Lewis S. C. Smythe(Professor of Sociology, University of Nanking)AND ASSISTANTS
THE MERCURY PRESS, SHANGHAI, CHINA
http://www.history.gr.jp/~nanking/LSCSmythe.pdf

the proof that has been found by people such as Yoshimi Yoshiaki and the diary found by Iris Chang (despite her fairly lousy book), are near irrefutable.

nice proof.....
I did not know such critical thinking..
that is why Japan bashing is interesting

Grandpa Frank · 12 Aug 2008

Haven't we beat this one to death?

You've been around long enough to know how much crap these kind of threads bring. Guess things have been to quiet & boring huh? Fasten your seat belts and get ready for the flaming and temper tantrums. Go to it!

Uncle Frank

Glenski · 12 Aug 2008

Emoni said:
I've been to Nanjing, I've been to South Korea, I've spoken with comfort women, I've read the books, I've been to the sites, and I've seen some of the documents (both translated and untranslated). However, I'm always left wondering, what is the argument for denial by the nationalist factions in Japan? I've asked this question to those who tend to support the denial side of the argument and been given links or references to books, but what I end up with is usually illogical pasted together garbage and convoluted books that earn the low reviews they get blasted with.

You've just answered your own question. Next.

What is the basis of denial?
If they truly admit to it, they will be shamed forever.

caster51 · 13 Aug 2008

If they truly admit to it, they will be shamed forever.

It is strange to admit the thing not done.
It is not a belief by the unreliable eyewitness testimony.
however, The problem is not such a thing
he wants to be relieved by affirming it as a thing that was also actually happened by other party.
it means he is thinking " we did crueller and were shamed "
how can deny this report of that time.?
http://www.history.gr.jp/~nanking/LSCSmythe.pdf

Emoni · 13 Aug 2008

Uncle Frank said:
You've been around long enough to know how much crap these kind of threads bring. Guess things have been to quiet & boring huh? Fasten your seat belts and get ready for the flaming and temper tantrums. Go to it!
Uncle Frank

Yes, I know the risk things like this draw, but at the same time it is directly related to my area of research and it isn't easy to find information directly related to the opposition specifically. I'm not purposefully trying to agitate anyone, only to get some new sources which I find very hard to find or understand the argument when is often impossible for me to piece together. Even a few new sources or explanations are very helpful.

Thanks everyone for the posts so far.

theAlphaDuck · 13 Aug 2008

Did you miss me?

what are the reasons for denial?

well thats quite a simple question.

using rape as a weapon of war is a war crime...

the penealty for said crime = Death...or at least it did post WW2...
unless of course you have some juicy biological warfare data to give the americans e.g. 731...

so it was denied because it would have ment death...even if in this day they were to admit it...they would still face prosecution in the hague...tho they now give out life sentences..

THAT is why it is denied.

all in all bad things happen in war...if you dont believe me ask a
georgian...
but certain things just arnt cricket.

rape, and misstreatment of POWs, willfull killing ect. ect.

also perhaps its worth considering that japan is quite a proud nation....and they would not like to admit that they acted like a bunch of medievel thugs while acting as an occuping force.

and even if they did what differnce does it make?

do those comfort women deserve compensation...in my opinion...NO

being a comfort woman they would have had a prime oppertunity to assiasinate the high ranking officials and officers of the occuping force....to not do so was bad form...they had the oppertunity to throw the japanese into chaos....

the other form that this could have been used to advantage was if the comfort women were infected with a STD...
much like the french did in the 100 years war...yes we can all thank france for syphillis.....

that may be a bit callus but...actually it resally IS quite callus....but the
tactical oppertunity was VERY good...and was not taken...

of course in the end it was not needed as japan was/is no match for europe and the US (mwha taunt!)

WW2 is always going to be a topic of shame for germany and Japan...because they tried it on...and we didnt just kick there arse...we bombed them rite back to the stone age...occupied there land and still do to THIS DAY...

largest NATO base in the world...location GERMANY
US east asia launchpad...south japan....
thus if it ever comes to war in asia...target 1 is japan..
if its ever war in europe...target 1 is Germany...

and they have to live with that.....
so yea....WW2 is always going to bring shame on japan...they tried...and they failed....

im not one to rub it in (too much)....but i think ironically everybody can agree on the fact that we ALL live better lives because they did lose!
esp. regarding germany....

because they lost the world is a fairer and freer place....that must be hard to live with....so i recon ease up about it....cos it will always be denied....and NO country has never done a bad thing ever!

peace

caster51 · 13 Aug 2008

Even a few new sources or explanations are very helpful.

before that, you should investigate it yourself..
and ask a question concretely.

WW2 is always going to bring shame on japan...they tried...and they failed....

i think there are so many people who are proud of that even if defeated though the WAR is refused.

Emoni · 13 Aug 2008

caster51 said:
before that, you should investigate it yourself..
and ask a question concretely.

Um, actually I have and continue to do so. This question is part of that research. The question above I thought was pretty clear and specific compared to questions I usually ask which are more broad.

Astroboy · 13 Aug 2008

Emoni said:
This is a fairly big question, one that I've been studying for some time but tend to come up with little.
I've been to Nanjing, I've been to South Korea, I've spoken with comfort women, I've read the books, I've been to the sites, and I've seen some of the documents (both translated and untranslated). However, I'm always left wondering, what is the argument for denial by the nationalist factions in Japan? I've asked this question to those who tend to support the denial side of the argument and been given links or references to books, but what I end up with is usually illogical pasted together garbage and convoluted books that earn the low reviews they get blasted with. Either that or I get just a bunch of questionable poor youtube links. From claims of forged photographs, to hidden bank accounts, everything is loose, and mixed with hearsay. While proof for issues such as the Nanjing Massacre and comfort women issue is not undeniable, the proof that has been found by people such as Yoshimi Yoshiaki and the diary found by Iris Chang (despite her fairly lousy book), are near irrefutable.
So my question is this, and it is a difficult question: What is the basis and what is the proof for denial of the Japanese atrocities such as those above? Proof that can be juxtaposed against the proof that supports the events or calls in to question the validity without simply assumption, and claims mixed with paranoia and faith.

Thanks to anyone who is willing to share their experience and knowledge.

YOU must know that there are many conspiracies to disgrace Japan in this world.

All photos used in Irish Chang's Rape of Nanking were fake or fabricated. Chinese are good at Photoshops and fabrication. I think Nanking thing must be one of the biggest history propaganda prepared by Red China.

noyhauser · 13 Aug 2008

While its impossible to pinpoint the exact number of Chinese people killed, there is very little doubt that at least 100,000 civillians and Chinese prisoners of war were killed in Nanking during the 1937 operation by the Imperial Japanese army to take the city.

The study cited above by Lewis Smythe is incomplete in several respects. First is its methodological problems, which Smythe even notes in his book.

Smythe Pg. 7 said:
There is reason to expect under-reporting of deaths violence at the hands of Japanese soldiers, it is because of fear of retribution from the army of occupation. Indeed, under-reporting is clearly emphasized the failure to record any violent deaths of young children, although not a few are known to have occurred

Second is the discriminating effect of violence on the sample population of Nanking. Much of the city's population attempted to flee the city, only to be caught up in the Imperial Japanese army's (IJA's) encirclement of the city. Their orders were to take no prisoners and therefore were more than likely to be killed. Those that survived were unlikely to return. The nature of those killed made it unlikely they would be classified by the survey. This is corroborated by the third point: most deaths occurred outside the city limits.

Also a significant portion of those killed were Nationalist Army prisoners of war and refugees, both captured by the IJA outside of the city. Since they were not residents of the city, they would not show up on the survey. We know massacres of prisoners of war occurred due to the publication of several wartime diaries of soldiers, the most prominent being General Nakajima Kesago. They offer direct corroboration that premeditated massacres of Chinese citizens took place completely outside of the legal boundaries of war.

I should finally note that Smythe's survey is most frequently cited to support historians studying the Nanking incident who believe a massacre took place. Only individuals who do not understand the study would claim it proves a massacre does not exist.

Astroboy · 13 Aug 2008

I should finally note that Smythe's survey is most frequently cited to support historians studying the Nanking incident who believe a massacre took place. Only individuals who do not understand the study would claim it proves a massacre does not exist.

Probably nobody know about Smith.

noyhauser · 13 Aug 2008

Astroboy said:
YOU must know that there are many conspiracies to disgrace Japan in this world.
All photos used in Irish Chang's Rape of Nanking were fake or fabricated. Chinese are good at Photoshops and fabrication. I think Nanking thing must be one of the biggest history propaganda prepared by Red China.

Have you actually read her book? You might want to start by spelling her name correctly.

There is little doubt among most scholars, Chinese, American and even many Japanese ones that a massacre occurred. Its difficult to identify an actual number, but most reliable estimates put it above 100,000. Kasahara Tokushi, who did his own exhaustive study using highly reliable sources said that was the lowest number. Some sources are of low quality, like the reports of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and other humanitarian organizations. However many are not. the Smythe Study, War Diaries of key Japanese soldiers and that of John Rabe, as well as Unit reports, show that approximately 80,000 Chinese Army prisoners of war were killed after the battle was over, and at least 26,000 civilians (the number identified killed by Smythe) to as many as 60,000 were killed (the number identified by Rabe.)

Finally, the best piece of corroborating evidence is the unit histories and personal diaries of Japanese soldiers in the field. They provide incontrovertible evidence that massacres did take place and were widespread, as they helped carry them out.

At the same time, I think its important to understand why these massacres occurred; its not just simply "Japanese militarism" that caused it. Nanking was an important centre, and the Nationalist Army defence was dogged, increasing frustration among Japanese troops. The IJA's attack was poorly planned and hastily operated; It was one of the first instances where the IJA took large numbers of casualties. They didn't have plans for how to deal with casualties, and individual unit commanders frequently decided to shoot prisoners instead of incarcerating them. Its much more complicated than many of the Anti-Japan bashers suggest; which is important. However there can be no doubt that a massacre did occur during this period.

I don't do this because I hate Japan, in fact I love the country; I've lived there for many years and my family is from there. However when someone can come here and try to erase history as some have tried, It makes me sick. Every country has its shameful moments in its history; the United States, France, England, Germany and even Canada. However most are able to acknowledge their sins, and move on. Japan hasn't, which will damage its relations to the rest of the world.

Astroboy · 13 Aug 2008

noyhauser said:
Have you actually read her book? You might want to start by spelling her name correctly.
There is little doubt among most scholars, Chinese, American and even many Japanese ones that a massacre occurred. Its difficult to identify an actual number, but most reliable estimates put it above 100,000. Kasahara Tokushi, who did his own exhaustive study using highly reliable sources said that was the lowest number. Some sources are of low quality, like the reports of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and other humanitarian organizations. However many are not. the Smythe Study, War Diaries of key Japanese soldiers and that of John Rabe, as well as Unit reports, show that approximately 80,000 Chinese Army prisoners of war were killed after the battle was over, and at least 26,000 civilians (the number identified killed by Smythe) to as many as 60,000 were killed (the number identified by Rabe.)
Finally, the best piece of corroborating evidence is the unit histories and personal diaries of Japanese soldiers in the field. They provide incontrovertible evidence that massacres did take place and were widespread, as they helped carry them out.
At the same time, I think its important to understand why these massacres occurred; its not just simply "Japanese militarism" that caused it. Nanking was an important centre, and the Nationalist Army defence was dogged, increasing frustration among Japanese troops. The IJA's attack was poorly planned and hastily operated; It was one of the first instances where the IJA took large numbers of casualties. They didn't have plans for how to deal with casualties, and individual unit commanders frequently decided to shoot prisoners instead of incarcerating them. Its much more complicated than many of the Anti-Japan bashers suggest; which is important. However there can be no doubt that a massacre did occur during this period.
I don't do this because I hate Japan, in fact I love the country; I've lived there for many years and my family is from there. However when someone can come here and try to erase history as some have tried, It makes me sick. Every country has its shameful moments in its history; the United States, France, England, Germany and even Canada. However most are able to acknowledge their sins, and move on. Japan hasn't, which will damage its relations to the rest of the world.

WHY do I need to read such Chinese propaganda?

All photos are fake and fabricated by photoshops. Once it became obvious, nobody trust the book. Chinese better learn how to spread propaganda to use US and West to make pressure against Japan.

I repeat that China better learn propaganda again.

noyhauser · 13 Aug 2008

Astroboy said:
Probably nobody know about Smith.

No, the name is Lewis S.E. Smythe; Pathetic that you can't even get the name right; how do you expect us to believe you actually understand history.
Also Tables 4 and 25 in Appendix II show that Smythe claimed that 28,000 Civilians were unlawfully killed by Japanese combatants. Apparently you haven't read any of this at all. You're quoting books that REFUTE your claims that a massacre hasn't occured.

Astroboy said:
WHY do I need to read such Chinese propaganda?
All photos are fake and fabricated by photoshops. Once it became obvious, nobody trust the book. Chinese better learn how to spread propaganda to use US and West to make pressure against Japan.
I repeat that China better learn propaganda again.

Its not "Chinese propaganda;" Its Japanese and American Scholars. who made these claims. Kasahara's study did not use one reference to Chinese sources because they were unreliable. He used Japanese war and unit diaries. And I didn't cite Iris Chang because I don't believe her book is very good either.

Emoni · 13 Aug 2008

Once again, I'm almost entirely concerned with a clear and supported argument. I'm looking for the BASIS and strongest refuting proof that exists in any language (preferably English and Japanese of course, since I cannot read other languages). A clear argument that is strongly supported is the only thing that will hold any water with the international accademic community in the first place.

Astroboy said:
YOU must know that there are many conspiracies to disgrace Japan in this world.
All photos used in Irish Chang's Rape of Nanking were fake or fabricated. Chinese are good at Photoshops and fabrication. I think Nanking thing must be one of the biggest history propaganda prepared by Red China.

Statements like this are useless unless supported. What proof do you have that all photo's were faked. Quote your sources, strong ones please. It is very possible certain photo's were faked, but you and the opposition side of course will have to support those claims. All I have seen so far are books written by the extreme right or graining youtube links. I know this is a sensitive subject and I'm asking a LOT for a calm presentation of sources and explanations here, but hey... in the end talking is the only way anything is discussed or learned in the end. Especially with sensitive subjects.

Claiming that all photo's are fake and it is just propaganda is simply making an unsupported statement and falls under the realm of propaganda itself. I'm VERY open to listening if you can support what you are saying with accademic sources, preferably multiple sources with cited material within them written by at least minimally unbiased persons.

Thanks.

Astroboy · 13 Aug 2008

noyhauser said:
No, the name is Lewis C.E. Smythe;
Pathetic; You can't even get the name right.
Also Tables 4 and 25 in Appendix II show that Smythe claimed that 28,000 Civilians were unlawfully killed by Japanese combatants.
Apparently you haven't read any of this at all. You're quoting passages that REFUTE your claims.

I didn't reference Iris Chang once. Kasahara's study did not use one reference to Chinese sources; he used Japanese war and unit diaries.
You are failing here miserably.

Is that your bible? Chinese are desparate to quote something always, arn't they?

Check British historian studying Nanking things in Japan.
ejcjs - The Nanjing Incident: Recent Research and Trends

In short, Red China hides many things, which are mostly unfavourable to China. Probably many Chinese in Nanking were killed by Chinese KMT.

Emoni said:
Once again, I'm almost entirely concerned with a clear and supported argument. I'm looking for the BASIS and strongest refuting proof that exists in any language (preferably English and Japanese of course, since I cannot read other languages). A clear argument that is strongly supported is the only thing that will hold any water with the international accademic community in the first place.

Statements like this are useless unless supported. What proof do you have that all photo's were faked. Quote your sources, strong ones please. It is very possible certain photo's were faked, but you and the opposition side of course will have to support those claims. All I have seen so far are books written by the extreme right or graining youtube links. I know this is a sensitive subject and I'm asking a LOT for a calm presentation of sources and explanations here, but hey... in the end talking is the only way anything is discussed or learned in the end. Especially with sensitive subjects.

Claiming that all photo's are fake and it is just propaganda is simply making an unsupported statement and falls under the realm of propaganda itself. I'm VERY open to listening if you can support what you are saying with accademic sources, preferably multiple sources with cited material within them written by at least minimally unbiased persons.

Thanks.

So you mean ...... in order to justify your opinion, we can use fake proof???? in your country

Emoni · 13 Aug 2008

Astroboy said:
Is that your bible? Chinese are desparate to quote something always, arn't they?
Check British historian studying Nanking things in Japan.
ejcjs - The Nanjing Incident: Recent Research and Trends
In short, Red China hides many things, which are mostly unfavourable to China. Probably many Chinese in Nanking were killed by Chinese KMT.

Insults do nothing here.

Please post your sources for your own statements. As much as you are ripping on China and making statements, the evidence to support the claims exists and is listed extensively. If you hope to refute or call in to question these claims, even on JREF you MUST QUOTE YOUR SOURCES and explain calmly your basis.

Please do not come on here simply to troll this thread. I'm quite serious about the information I'm looking as it relates to a section graduate research I'm preparing for.

If you are going to state something is a fake, then show proof that it is a fake. If you are going to state something is propaganda, explain and show proof about what aspects are false, why, and how it is propaganda. Otherwise, inciting insults and flame wars is not helpful to even Japan.

Thanks for any information you might provide.

Astroboy · 13 Aug 2008

Emoni said:
Insults do nothing here.
Please post your sources for your own statements. As much as you are ripping on China and making statements, the evidence to support the claims exists and is listed extensively. If you hope to refute or call in to question these claims, even on JREF you MUST QUOTE YOUR SOURCES and explain calmly your basis.
Thanks for any information you might provide.

So do you. please please

Emoni · 13 Aug 2008

Astroboy said:
So do you. please please

I'm not here to debate about these issues, I'm only posting to find out the logic behind the oppositions stance, and the sources and evidence that exists to refute such claims. If you wish to look up evidence for such issues please use the search function for past threads on the proof that exists to prove such claims, or look up the work of Yoshimi Yoshiaki and other books and interviews on the sources of the comfort women. If you wish to look for information supporting the Nanjing massacre please look up the dairies of John Rabe and the safe zone material accounts as well as digs and other interviews and reports.

Again, I'm only concerned about the opposition arguments and sources. I'm actually asking directly for you to simply present sources and explain in a calm accademic manner what angle you oppose or see these issues as refutable. If you cannot do this, please stop simply inciting and making statements that are along the lines of trolling.

Thanks.

Astroboy · 13 Aug 2008

Emoni said:
Insults do nothing here.

Please post your sources for your own statements. As much as you are ripping on China and making statements, the evidence to support the claims exists and is listed extensively. If you hope to refute or call in to question these claims, even on JREF you MUST QUOTE YOUR SOURCES and explain calmly your basis.

Please do not come on here simply to troll this thread. I'm quite serious about the information I'm looking as it relates to a section graduate research I'm preparing for.

If you are going to state something is a fake, then show proof that it is a fake. If you are going to state something is propaganda, explain and show proof about what aspects are false, why, and how it is propaganda. Otherwise, inciting insults and flame wars is not helpful to even Japan.

Thanks for any information you might provide.

You better study ejcjs - The Nanjing Incident: Recent Research and Trends
Regarding Chinese fake, you better buy and study the book of Prof. Higashinakano 東中野修道 - Wikipedia

Another useful academic books in English.

The Over All Pictures of Nanking Massacre in Feifei Li and Robert Sabella and Prrry Link ,eds., Nanking 1937 :Memory and Healing, （New York: M.E.Sharpe, 2001）.

Nanking Massacre as War Propaganda Keeping Still Alive, Mihail E. Ionescu ed.,War, Military and Media from Gutenberg to Today （Bucharest: Military Publishing House, 2004）.

noyhauser · 13 Aug 2008

Astroboy said:
Is that your bible? Chinese are desparate to quote something always, arn't they?
Check British historian studying Nanking things in Japan.
ejcjs - The Nanjing Incident: Recent Research and Trends

Umm you might want to read your "British Historian Study." Its a historiography. It doesn't make conclusions; it examines the progression in scholarship on the topic.

Only someone who hasn't read Askew's articleor is didn't understand it would try to claim it supports the contention that there weren't massacres.

Astroboy · 13 Aug 2008

noyhauser said:
Umm you might want to read your "British Historian Study." Its a historiography. It doesn't make conclusions; it examines the progression in scholarship on the topic.
Only someone who hasn't read it or is blind would try to claim it supports the contention that there weren't massacres.

As I said, Nanking things are not academically exploited yet as Chinese government hides many proof. I think you should go to China and discover the facts if possible.

The point is ...... you are telling so-called Nanking massacre based on uncertain or fake information.

It is called "brainwashed by propaganda." It worked even in Japan in the past. But does not work out anymore. Thus, Chinese/Koreans are frustrated. That's all about I think.

Japanese Attrocities (Rape of Nanjing Comfort Women...) what is basis of denial?,

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