Japan acted worse than Germany during WWII

lexico said:

Please do not skip, Keoland. Like I said, we can handle whatever you raise as civilised people. Unless you meant insult. ;-)

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No, no insult at all :sorry:

The first war of Sukarno was against the Dutch right after WW2, fighting for Indonesian independence against their former colonial overlords.

Also, from 1952 to 1956 the state of Aceh declared independence from Indonesia and Sukarno fought them (incredible how one can be pro-independence in some issues but totally opposed to those very same principles when they affect their own territory). The Aceh guerilla continues to this very day.

The Dutch continued in West New Guinea, though, so in 1960 Sukarno established a special military unit, the Army Strategic Reserve Command (Kostrad), also known as the Mandala Command, based in Ujungpandang, to "recover" the territory, starting a non-declared war with the Dutch there.

A fullscale war was averted when a compromise was worked out under United States auspices in which West New Guinea was first turned over to UN and then to Indonesian administration. A guerrilla later started there for independence which lasts until today, causing many victims.

In 1963, Sukarno declared that Indonesia must "gobble Malaysia raw". The Indonesian military entered Malaysia but were defeated by fierce resistance -this action becaome known as Konfrontasi (Confrontation), which lasted until 1966 and ended up involving Britain, the United States, the Soviet Union, and China.

Regards,
Keoland

I agree that Japan has done a lot of very bad things during WW II, and indeed westerners usually don't know anything about that war in the Far East, I guess that they are not really interested. I was right in that war, and I had some most horrible experieces between 1942 and 1945, while I lived in former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia.
But I also have two Japanese friends, I have been to Japan in 2000, I hope that you all don't find me too old to join you? I love contact with young people.
Greetings from the Netherlands

Welcome aboard !!

Hello, Elizabeth !!
I was a bit intimidated when I joined this forum because the demographics was way skewed on the younger side. Although feeling outnumbered, I have faced absolutely no agist attacks coming from the younger membership !
Besides, the enthusiasm for facts and learning of the members I discovered before joining far outweighed my fear so to speak. I fit in quite fine, as people here have been mild in temper, and often quite gentle, even forgiving minor mistakes.

You must have some amazing stories to tell - first hand experience carries high value in my opinion.
Great to have you here, and would love to hear more from you.

Greetings from Sunny S.Korea with its Sunshine Policy
Lexico

Elizabeth van Kampen said:

I agree that Japan has done a lot of very bad things during WW II, and indeed westerners usually don't know anything about that war in the Far East, I guess that they are not really interested. I was right in that war, and I had some most horrible experieces between 1942 and 1945, while I lived in former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia.
But I also have two Japanese friends, I have been to Japan in 2000, I hope that you all don't find me too old to join you? I love contact with young people.
Greetings from the Netherlands

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Hoi welkom,

You are right about western mostly do not know much about the war in the east! and also the other way around. My Japanese wife has huge interrest in what hitler did in here, but doesnt know anything from the war in her own country. I hope to learn her more about it, someday!!!

My grandfather was in the East Indies, around 1947 -1950, i dont know the exact year.

Elizabeth van Kampen said:

I agree that Japan has done a lot of very bad things during WW II, and indeed westerners usually don't know anything about that war in the Far East, I guess that they are not really interested. I was right in that war, and I had some most horrible experieces between 1942 and 1945, while I lived in former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia.
But I also have two Japanese friends, I have been to Japan in 2000, I hope that you all don't find me too old to join you? I love contact with young people.
Greetings from the Netherlands

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Welcome to the forum Elizabeth!

How nice to see another older person join us and make up our numbers!

Your experiences and background just heve to be of benefit to us all - and I'm sure we all look forward to some of your views on many subjects.

It's also nice to know that I'm not the oldest one here! I feel refreshed! I think you and I can both claim to be the only "survivors of World War II" on the forum - but I feel that you are much more of a survivor than myself!

I would also like to echo the sentiments of Lexico - don't worry about the young folks here ... they're a pretty nice bunch of folks !

We look forward to your contributions - best regards,

John

I cannot say which was worse really, but one thing I can say for sure is that whilst Hitler has been labelled the greatest demon of the 20th century, some of the most prominent officials in the Japanese government are descendants of people of Class A war criminal standard. No wonder right-wing activists are so loud in Japan.

It's probably difficult for the younger generation in Japan to face up to its past, but without knowing history, the same mistake will be made again! Nobody in Germany would deny that Hitler inflicted atrocities upon the Jews, yet there are still some Japanese who deny that Japan did anything wrong in the War.

On the otherside of the world, the West shows hardly any interest in the Asian front of WWII. I can feel that here in Australia as well, while ANZAC parades are held annually to commemorate those lost in WWI especially in the battle of Gallipoli, relatively little was done to commerate those died at the hands of Japanese soldiers in WWII.

Throughout my high school history lessons, much was taught about the American Civil War, WWI, WWII and so on but I don't recall, ever, that the details of what happened in asia more than 60 years ago. And from this I have reasons to believe the only thing that some people my age would know about Japan is that "Japan bombed Pearl Harbour" (thanks to the movie and American influence). This is far from the entire picture.

I often think to myself is there any way I can change that? In today's society so many care so much more about their careers, their future, their money... they overlook such an important part of history. We don't want to forget the past because we don't want to make the same mistake again. But not knowing anything about the past certainly does not help.

And it seems that that Japanese government is really not helping very much. Sure, Korea and China may be making too much of a big fuss over the textbook issues, and many say that other intentions are hidden behind this whole conflict. However, I think textbooks are important, they teach little kids knowledge. If they were taught twisted facts in the beginning then it's like they will grow up believing that.

Germany's former president had kneeled down infront of Jewish victims asking for forgiven-ness thus earning himself a Nobel Peace Prize. On the other hand, many victims (dead and alive) of the country that caused so much misery more than 60 years ago are still waiting for an official and sincere apology. When are they going to get it? When is Japan going to bravely acknowledge its past? I don't know.

Japan may have succeeded in dazzling the world with its electronics, manga and anime (and I am a fan of that as well), however it's only when Japan faces up to its history that it will earn the true respect of countries and individuals worldwide.

Hello Lexico, John and Dutch Baka,

Thank you very much for your welcome words!
I have written my story on the forum display , members introductions.
Hope that I have done it all the right way, since I didn't grow up with all this PC business, I can stare at my PC now and then and ask myself: "Now what?"

Thank you once again.

Elizabeth

Hi Bluubear,
Yes it was Willy Brandt who knelt down and asked the Jews to forgive the Germans who had killed so many of them.
I just recently found out that only 37% of the Germans had voted for Hittler, yet he won. Some Germans agreed with Hittler, they said that all the money in Germany was in hands of the Jews, they were rich. Maybe that was partly true, but the tragedy is that he killed all the poor Jews, while quite a lot of the rich could escape the country.
That's why the A-bomb is also a tragedy, it killed so many innocent Japanese people.

But today you can find or look up any document about the war the Germans fought, read openly about all their war crimes.
Japan plays a victim role in WW II because of those two A-bombs ( and of course that was horrible, nobody shall deny this) but something happened before those two bombs fell, Japanese military killed many innoncent people all over Asia in the most cruel and horrible ways. The Japanese government refuses to talk about this, it never happened, Japanese teenagers are not allowed to read about those crimes. Japan has many very ugly pages in their history between 1937 and 1945.
I am certain that their are men like Willy Brandt in Japan, but to kneel down and admit what Japan has done during WW II in the Far East is just not done, it is impossible. The Japanese leaders are headstrong playboys, maybe they will grow up one day, who knows. But I do like the Japanese people.

Best regards from the Netherlands

Elizabeth

Is it true then? That the Japanese committed atrocities such as inhumane torture and mass rape? I guess what is most important now is that no one is going to acknowledge they are wrong, so leave this whole issue at rest. Who is it going to help if you guys keep on arguing and despising over something that happened in the past? As long as they act accordingly in the future, everyone can be at peace.

stupid comments annoy me

jEsteR_bOy said:

Is it true then? That the Japanese committed atrocities such as inhumane torture and mass rape?

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Ever took any history courses?

I guess what is most important now is that no one is going to acknowledge they are wrong, so leave this whole issue at rest. Who is it going to help if you guys keep on arguing and despising over something that happened in the past? As long as they act accordingly in the future, everyone can be at peace.

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Dear God, that argument is one of the most inane comments I've ever read. You'd be well-advised to change your perspective, pronto.

First of all, you're erasing the importance of history. How can people even "act accordingly in the future" if some people deny what's happened and won't have the responsibility to bear the facts? Future relationships in this rosy scenario that you painted would be superficial at best. It won't work, and more importantly, it'd be a huge insult to those who have been victimized AND to those who bear a sense of justice.

Secondly, just because "no one is going to acknowledge they are wrong," as you say, do you mean to say that it's wrong for those with a strong sense of right and wrong to take a stand? This is more than your simply family argument; it's about taking responsibility for past, horrific actions. Your attempt to treat it as if it were the former is simply ignorant and naive.

Why some people are bothered more by the conflict than the actual content of the subject matter is beyond me.

Have you no sense of justice?

After my surgery a couple of weeks ago, I decided to take a break from the J-Ref forums because I was beginning to get emotionally drained. The simple reason is that there was a constant rehashing of Japanese wrongdoings both past and present.

Instead of one thread discussing Japanese war crimes during WW II, there was thread after thread. Likewise, concerning the debate over issues with modern Japanese history texts, there was not one thread to deal with the issue, but thread after thread. I do believe that discussing these issues is important, but I question the need for multiple threads on these subjects, most especially when the same points are iterated and reiterated over and over. Honestly, I am tired of seeing so many threads lambasting the Japanese, demonizing them to be possibly worse than any other creature that has crawled along the surface of the earth. But more on this later*.

I was also frustrated by the fact that when I tried to point out that some of the same wrongful behaviors exhibited by the Japanese were also found in other cultures and nations as well, and likewise that there are Japanese who have not done wrong at all and that various conditions of good and bad are human in nature (nothing being specific to the Japanese, the Americans, whoever), I got verbally pummelled repeatedly for having the apparent audacity of saying nothing more than that, hey, the Japanese are neither all bad nor all good - don't paint them with overly broad strokes. The grief I got over that . . . yeah, made me glad for trying to be an intellectual trying to cool the fires and reason through these things.

But, the biggest thing that really has depressed me in all these threads is that I just don't get the point. No, really. I mean, yes, the Japanese did many horrible and atrocious crimes during WW II, and this needs to be recorded and told. Yes, the Japanese need to work on reforming/changing those elements in their society that still cling to hurtful and wrongful ultra-nationalist ideals (that result in such things as the text-book fiasco, though I could give you plenty of examples of the same in the U.S.). But, what is the point of so many threads and such vehemence in demonizing the Japanese? What is your goal?

*Worse than WW II Nazi Germany? Worse than baking men, women, and children in giant ovens? Worse than herding people in to giant gas chambers to be systematically executed by the millions? When you have such atrocities as the Rape of Nanking and the Holocaust (the genocide waged against the Jews), what are you trying to accomplish by determining who is more evil? What do you want? Never to forgive the Japanese? Never to move forward? Never to accept that progress may take time and not happen all at once? If I felt that there was a constructive purpose to all this discourse, perhaps I would be a peace with it. But, all this discussion seems not centered around a way to make things better, but simply seems to serve a means of demonizing Japan and stoking anti-Japanese fervor. Do you have Japanese friends? Would you consider it constructive to tell them their country ranks worse than Nazi Germany? I guess, for the Germans, being used as a benchmark for comparative evil has got to suck, too. Why not use the slaughter of Native Americans by European colonists? I bet some of you are of European descent; I am on my father's side. Where do we rank with Nazi Germany? Do we deserve forgiveness? If so, why us and not the Japanese?

I, of course, need to do my part. That is, if these threads are so troubling to me, I should probably try to focus my attention and comments to other threads that are happier and less troubling. But I can never turn a blind eye! I cannot turn a blind eye to what Japan has done wrong, but neither can I turn a blind eye to what appears as rehashing the same issues for the sake of bashing Japan.

Does anyone . . . ANYONE understand why I am so depressed about all this!?

I for one, have to agree with kokusu, which is why I rarely post on these threads.

Or read them, for that matter.

For me, what depresses me is not the fact that there is so much talking about this all the time, but the fact that a nation as a whole has refused to take full responsibility, as well as some people wanting to turn a blind eye. Maybe the reason people keep bringing it up is because they feel some sense of injustice that hasn't yet been amended.

I got verbally pummelled repeatedly for having the apparent audacity of saying nothing more than that, hey, the Japanese are neither all bad nor all good - don't paint them with overly broad strokes. The grief I got over that . . . yeah, made me glad for trying to be an intellectual trying to cool the fires and reason through these things.

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Do you really think the others verbally abused you? Where exactly did you feel insulted? Please point out where specifically. Here is the thread that you referred to.

Just Cultural Differences?

And another point: unlike what you're suggesting, people like Maciamo ARE in fact very reasonable people. That you try to paint these kinds of folks as irrational bashers is to me problematic and plain wrong. No doubt there are always some "Japan Bashers," but in the thread mentioned above, where is the evidence that it's all for the sake of bashing? You need to try harder looking at the arguments presented to you.


Keep in mind that most people, myself included, came in with a love of Japan to begin with. As I said before to someone else, I strongly dislike it when someone simplifies all criticism to be plain bashing.

Today, I received the following email from (let's call him) John.

"I'm English and I live in Tokyo. I went to visit the Yasukuni Shrine last week. That's the one which is always in the news because of its celebration of Japanese war criminals. Well I was wandering around an exhibition they have some large war machinery - zero sen fighter, a howitzer etc. There's also a locomotive used on the infamous Thai-Burma railway. I was appeled at the information that was written on the stand next to the locomotive and wanted to pass this outrage on you. There is a panel alongside the locomotive and there are two blocks of Japanese text. One is a description of the locomotive, where it was built etc. and this is translated in English.
The other description of the railway isn't translated into English. But never mind I've translated it for you..

- Thai Burma Railway-
In June 1942, with objective of establishing supply lines for the military push into Burma and India, the Japanese army began to construct a railway between Nong Praduk in Thailand and Thanbyuzzayat in Burma, a 415 km distance. The constuction was based on Japan's National Railway standard and those involved amounted to around 170 000 people mainly Japanese army(railway division) but also allied prisoners of war and local people. It took remarkably short 1 year and 3 months to complete and opened in October 1943. The English army had previously conceived the idea of building the railway but had given up. Inaccessible topography combined with the severe tropical climate made the construction particularly difficult. -

It says no more, so that is the information about the Thai-Burma railway given to the thousands of Japanese who pass through the exhibition each year!

Best regards,
John

Can't help feeling very deeply sorry for all those POW's and the Romusha's from Indonesia sent by Sukarno, and all the many others who died while working on that "hell railway" under Japanese command.

Why I even bother . . .

I really feel . . . exasperated by this. I want so much to have what I am trying to say be heard and understood, yet at the same time I am absolutely tired of being personally questioned rather than having my points discussed. Rather tha have my questions answered or addressed, I fully feel that my credibilty is being questioned. And, yes, I will explain why I feel this way. But, first, for a coherent rundown of the questions I pose that I want answered, just look towards the end of this post. While I sit here addressing a critique of my post, those are still the questions that run through my mind and those are the questions I still want answered.

Since it seems that I am not willing enough to bear an olive branch and back down regarding my beliefs, I suppose I should address your reply then, point by point, as best as possible. Maybe, to relieve some of my . . . sorrow that things have come to such acrimonious debate, I can honestly say that while I am exasperated and depressed, I do not hate anyone here and would welcome a chance to meet as friends anyone here. Yep, sure . . . I'm at turns mad and sad. But, I have stated before (in other threads) and I state again that I firmly believe it is important for me to temper any heated feelings towards someone with compassion as I hope to receive in return. That being said, now on to the part that will probably torque someone (lastmagi, perhaps, since it is your reply I am currently addressing) in return . . .

lastmagi said:

Do you really think the others verbally abused you? Where exactly did you feel insulted? Please point out where specifically. Here is the thread that you referred to.

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I neither said "abused" nor "insulted"; I said, "pummelled." As in, I received numerous and impassioned replies that basically stated I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Do I think it was abusive? No, and I didn't say it was. Was it insulting? No, and I didn't say that either. It was a tiring, frustrating, and at times painful experience for me - akin to being pummelled - because I really believe that I was having to hold my own against several individuals who, for whatever reasons, were misconstruing my arguments or denying the validity of my arguments with impassioned but poorly supported arguments of their own. And, if you want specifics, go read the post instead of asking me to cut and paste the entire thing here. If you agree with me, you do, if not, not. My cut and paste skills neither support nor undermine my feelings. Pummelled I felt and pummelled I said. Trying to intimate that I said or meant abused or insulted, as I stated above, I take as a challenge against my credibility, not an address of the issues I have raised.

lastmagi said:

And another point: unlike what you're suggesting, people like Maciamo ARE in fact very reasonable people. That you try to paint these kinds of folks as irrational bashers is to me problematic and plain wrong. No doubt there are always some "Japan Bashers," but in the thread mentioned above, where is the evidence that it's all for the sake of bashing? You need to try harder looking at the arguments presented to you.

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Funny you should mention someone's name in specific, because I didn't - ON PURPOSE! I have issue with a type of debate and discourse that I see as non-productive and detrimental to constructive discussion of issues concerning Japan. But, I have not made this an issue of 'so-and-so' is bad, etc. You might be surprised how much esteem I have for Maciamo, and how I have greatly appreciated many of his posts and even asked for his help and advice. Doesn't mean I always agree with him or like what he has to say, however. And on certain topics, there exists passionately strong disagreement. However, I never said Maciamo was unreasonable. If I truly felt that people here in general or specific were unreasonable, there wouldn't be much point in me trying to reason with them through my posts now, would there? Again, I am railing against a certain type of discourse, not specific people (I even advocated that McTojo be allowed to stay, and I don't ever remember agreeing with him!). Unless I tell you specifically, do not presume to know how I regard individual people. Of course, it is absolutely fair for you to ask me how I regard someone if you want to know. And, if you are curious, no, I don't think Maciamo is unreasonable. I do think he is wrong about some things, but I believe that he is a reasonable and intelligent person, and that with enough effort and discussion, maybe someday he and I will stand on idealogically closer ground. Hopefully, he feels something close to that about me as well, but I probably lack a bit in charm.

Also, while I felt pummelled in one thread in particular, the questions I have and the problems I perceive are pandemic across several threads. Another reason I don't feel up to cutting and pasting . . . I'd be here forever! I perceive that there has been numerous threads where the same issues have been rehashed over and over; the thread I referred to is an example of what I feel the problem to be, not the specific problem itself.

As far as using "Japan Bashers" in quotes, who are you quoting? Not me. If I am more-or-less trying to say don't label the Japanese, it wouldn't be too productive to label everyone else in turn. Oh, truth be told, the words do float around in my mind from time to time. But, you know, I struggle to avoid making a bigger *** out of myself than I already am in day-to-day life. And that means learning to work hard at keeping the name-calling in check as much as possible. Yes, I used the word "bashing" once at the very tail end of my whole post describing the behavior with which I have issue. But calling people "Japan bashers?" Didn't do it. As an analogous example, it is the same point I have tried to make about saying there is a difference between saying that it is OK to point out racist actions in Japan but another thing altogether to broadly say the Japanese are racists. So, please, tell me, who are you quoting? Again, I think you are not addressing my questions but going after my credibility.

As far as painting people "irrational bashers" . . . you don't have a problem with how broadly the Japanese are being painted in such a negative way? Interesting . . . but, back to my painting, I think I used words like "fervor" and "vehemence", not "irrational". I believe that there exists a "rational" behind the discourse to which I have a problem . . . I, however, don't agree with that "rational" let alone understand it. I did, if you notice, offer a chance for someone to explain it. Ditto about the credibility thing, again . . .

lastmagi said:

As I said before to someone else, I strongly dislike it when someone simplifies all criticism to be plain bashing.

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And I strongly dislike having to engage in these kind of debates to voice and then defend my questions and my crediblity. I never simplified all criticism to plain bashing. I do say that rehashing the same topics over and over in an effort to demonize the Japanese is bashing. I do question the value of demonizing the Japanese, or anyone, repeatedly without change or progress. I believe that such discourse invites tit-for-tat accusation and counter-accusation without ever moving towards redemption, forgiveness, and healing. I question whether some people are offering a dialogue that is constructive to resolving the very issues they raise, or if the arguments I have problem with in effect create a stagnant air of recrimination without hope for improvement. I think that revisiting the crimes committed by people of a culture over and over again without consideration for people of that same culture who have done good and acted selflessly is an oversimplification of the issue. I think addressing people of a culture as if they are all the same is inappropriate. I think criticism of wrongdoing, of atrocities, of acts both commited on the individual scale and the social scale do need to be addressed and discussed. I do believe in holding people accountable. But I believe in things like hope and forgiveness and patience, as well. How's that for simplifying all criticism. Thanks for asking. Credibility . . .

OK. Well, that was thoroughly exhausting and depressing for me to do, but I replied, defended myself, and hope I cleared a few misunderstandings up. Of course, since I couldn't keep all the passion and frustration out of my words, I probably PO'ed some people, as well. Two steps forward, three back.

As for that coherent list of questions I wanted answered . . .

1) What are you trying to accomplish by determining who is more evil?

2) Would you consider it constructive to tell your Japanese friends their country ranks worse than Nazi Germany?

3) Why not use the slaughter of Native Americans by European colonists? I bet some of you are of European descent; I am on my father's side. Where do we rank with Nazi Germany?

4) Do European-descended Americans deserve forgiveness for the atrocities commited against Native Americans? If so, why us (I say 'us' because I am at least in part of European-descent) and not the Japanese?

5) Do you never want to forgive the Japanese? Can you state in concrete terms what it would take for you to forgive the Japanese and move on?

6) What is the point of the numerous threads rehashing the same topics of Japanese guilt over and over? (This is a critical question for me!!!)

7) Does anyone . . . ANYONE understand why I am so depressed about all this!? (Big BIG 窶堙??堋､窶堙?窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｪ窶堙??堋､窶堋ｲ窶堋ｴ窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ to Mikawa Ossan for answering this question . . . and answering it, yes . . . not even a grousy grump like me wants to feel all alone)

lastmagi said:

You need to try harder looking at the arguments presented to you.

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I looked very hard indeed at the arguments presented to me, and I responded to them as I have done before.

Now it is your turn to look very hard at the arguments and questions I have presented to you.

I have noticed that while people have gone on to post on the multiple threads lambasting the Japanese that I mentioned as being problematic (in my view), no one has bothered to respond to my previous post (the one above this one).

I asked seven (7) direct questions about the nature of certain criticisms and discourse on the forum here, and wait for those questions to be addressed.

I would like to reiterate (or maybe try to state coherently) that I do not find all criticism objectionable, nor do I say that criticism automatically equals bashing (which has seemed to become a hot button word here). But, I do believe that criticism to be of merit must be constructive and compassionate. Constructive in the sense that it addresses real problems for the sake of understanding and resolving those problems, and compassionate in that no one (individual, culture, or country) is demonized in perpetua, nor that good (done by individual, culture, or country) is forgotten or made irrelevant by that criticism.

In any case, I would like for someone who has time to post in the many threads that sharply and repeatedly criticize the Japanese in topic after topic even where there is much overlap to, please, find the time to address the questions I asked above.

P.S. to lastmagi:
Last night I was looking back through old posts and messages, and I noticed that there have been times where we have agreed and been supportive of one another's posts, comments, ideas . . .
All that to say, though we are butting intellectual heads over some issues at the moment, I was glad to be reminded of the good things we have shared here. Though this is probably as acrimonious and painful a debate as we have had, I am glad that you and I can meet and discuss and debate in a forum such as this.
I am glad that that you are here. At the end of the day, after all heated exchange has been spent, when the impassioned words have debate have cooled, I hope for the wellbeing of us all.
I just thought this important to share, to temper the heat of this debate . . .

P.S. to lastmagi:
Last night I was looking back through old posts and messages, and I noticed that there have been times where we have agreed and been supportive of one another's posts, comments, ideas . . .
All that to say, though we are butting intellectual heads over some issues at the moment, I was glad to be reminded of the good things we have shared here. Though this is probably as acrimonious and painful a debate as we have had, I am glad that you and I can meet and discuss and debate in a forum such as this.
I am glad that that you are here. At the end of the day, after all heated exchange has been spent, when the impassioned words have debate have cooled, I hope for the wellbeing of us all.
I just thought this important to share, to temper the heat of this debate . . .

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There've been worse, if you think this is bad.

If anything, there's always the adrenaline rush.

***

kokusu said:

I neither said "abused" nor "insulted"; I said, "pummelled." As in, I received numerous and impassioned replies that basically stated I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

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My bad, as 'pummelled' to me carries the connotation of abuse. Get in a fight and you don't worry whether someone's going to pummel you or abuse you. Using 'insulted' was plain wrong on my part.

OK then, then let's make it: at what point did you start to feel pummeled, and why? (Nevermind, you partially already answer for me later.)

Anyway, I disagree that people basically said you were "wrong, wrong wrong," because I did see some support for people's arguments. Since you refuse to point out specifics, it becomes hard to see where you're coming from.

Do I think it was abusive? No, and I didn't say it was. Was it insulting? No, and I didn't say that either. It was a tiring, frustrating, and at times painful experience for me - akin to being pummelled - because I really believe that I was having to hold my own against several individuals who, for whatever reasons, were misconstruing my arguments or denying the validity of my arguments with impassioned but poorly supported arguments of their own.

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Where are the impassioned, poorly supported responses? Between the parts where you said:

First, let me say that everyone has contributed some very insightful posts and have provided me with much to think upon.

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and

And, I knew it was probably going to be . . . passionate.

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(the second of which was the post at which you temporarily left)

I detected no evidence of either "...passionate" (quoted because it's suggesting more than its face value) or poorly supported arguments, particularly the more critical arguments that you never got around to address. I think each argument was backed up with some grounding. Which is why the next quote made me wonder:

And, if you want specifics, go read the post instead of asking me to cut and paste the entire thing here.

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I know what was written there, otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. I just want to know what you perceived as impassioned and/or poorly supported arguments that ultimately contributed to your pummeling.

Pummelled I felt and pummelled I said. Trying to intimate that I said or meant abused or insulted, as I stated above, I take as a challenge against my credibility, not an address of the issues I have raised.

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Well then, pummeled it is.


***

Funny you should mention someone's name in specific, because I didn't - ON PURPOSE!

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I got verbally pummelled repeatedly for having the apparent audacity of saying nothing more than that, hey, the Japanese are neither all bad nor all good - don't paint them with overly broad strokes. The grief I got over that . . . yeah, made me glad for trying to be an intellectual trying to cool the fires and reason through these things.

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I really believe that I was having to hold my own against several individuals who, for whatever reasons, were misconstruing my arguments or denying the validity of my arguments with impassioned but poorly supported arguments of their own.

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Your most recent comments (quoted in the next section) indicate that you were referring to something more general than specific about these kinds of discussions, yet I was confused about the relevance of this first quote. So let's double back to what led me to comment on this.

The second of the above-quoted indicates an attempt to contrast your efforts at discussion with something else. What? Obviously something metaphoric gotten out of "fires" and something other than "reason." Moreover, you were referring to a specific thread, though not person.

In the third quoted passage, "Several individuals" to me denotes more than one person, maybe more than two. This quote is also within the same context. Now how many people were you debating with in that thread I mentioned before you left? Two.

Since I mentioned a specific thread (or rather, since you were referring to a specific thread) and I was myself specifically responding to the second of those three quotes above, I don't see how the first of the three comments apply in the context that was laid out.

If I truly felt that people here in general or specific were unreasonable, there wouldn't be much point in me trying to reason with them through my posts now, would there?

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Then what was with the snide "trying to be an intellectual trying to cool the fires and reason through these things."?

Also, while I felt pummelled in one thread in particular, the questions I have and the problems I perceive are pandemic across several threads. Another reason I don't feel up to cutting and pasting . . . I'd be here forever! I perceive that there has been numerous threads where the same issues have been rehashed over and over; the thread I referred to is an example of what I feel the problem to be, not the specific problem itself.

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The number of grievances or the source of the grievances. Which one is the underlying problem?

I don't mind so much the amount of threads that have been raised, as long as they aren't exactly the same (and they're not).

***

As far as using "Japan Bashers" in quotes, who are you quoting? Not me.

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But calling people "Japan bashers?" Didn't do it.

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It's called scare quotes, quite common in journalism.

http://www.informatics.susx.ac.uk/doc/punctuation/node31.html

Would "Rehashers Who Are Demonizing the Japanese By Bringing Up These Threads All The Time" be better?

You seem adept at taking everything literally, even punctuations!

Again, I think you are not addressing my questions but going after my credibility.

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Credibility? How about I question the completeness of your questions?

As far as painting people "irrational bashers" . . . you don't have a problem with how broadly the Japanese are being painted in such a negative way? Interesting . . .

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Thanks for putting unwarranted (and, of course, completely unfounded) words in my mouth.

but, back to my painting, I think I used words like "fervor" and "vehemence", not "irrational". I believe that there exists a "rational" behind the discourse to which I have a problem . . . I, however, don't agree with that "rational" let alone understand it. I did, if you notice, offer a chance for someone to explain it.

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But words such as fervor and vehemence are indicative of irrationality, or at least clouded, spur-of-the-moment, uncontrolled thinking (which is what I was getting at anyway with the word irrationality). Again, you're being way too literal, so much so that you're missing the point while you're busy triumphantly claiming "See! I didn't say that!" at every chance that you get (which of course you didn't say explicitly).

And I strongly dislike having to engage in these kind of debates to voice and then defend my questions and my crediblity.

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Part of debating IS about defending arguments. Credibility is at stake if those arguments are perpetually lacking in support and a framework that doesn't miss out some important parts.

***

I never simplified all criticism to plain bashing. I do say that rehashing the same topics over and over in an effort to demonize the Japanese is bashing.

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Assumption 1: that these "rehashing the same topics" is in fact an effort to demonize the Japanese, something you haven't proven how.

Assumption 2: that it's a topic not worthy of discourse, no matter how much 'rehashing'.

I do question the value of demonizing the Japanese, or anyone, repeatedly without change or progress. I believe that such discourse invites tit-for-tat accusation and counter-accusation without ever moving towards redemption, forgiveness, and healing.

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Assumption 3: that the discourse is not dependent on the source of its discontent.

I question whether some people are offering a dialogue that is constructive to resolving the very issues they raise, or if the arguments I have problem with in effect create a stagnant air of recrimination without hope for improvement.

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Assumption 4: that ways of improvement have not already been suggested

Assumption 5: that the source of discontent has not been confronted with suggestions for improvement. A look at recent news article highlights the lack of grounding for this assumption.

I think that revisiting the crimes committed by people of a culture over and over again without consideration for people of that same culture who have done good and acted selflessly is an oversimplification of the issue.

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Assumption 6: that the "rehashing" is solely about the crimes themselves.

I think addressing people of a culture as if they are all the same is inappropriate.

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Assumption 7: that societal institutions hold little to no sway over people's attitudes.

Assumption 8: that we are speaking of each and every individual Japanese in the first place.

I think criticism of wrongdoing, of atrocities, of acts both commited on the individual scale and the social scale do need to be addressed and discussed. I do believe in holding people accountable. But I believe in things like hope and forgiveness and patience, as well.

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Implied assumption: that the 'rehashers' don't still hope.

How's that for simplifying all criticism. Thanks for asking. Credibility . . .

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In all seriousness, I never knew before I actually started writing my reply that there were so many assumptions in these quotes. Anyway, assumptions lead to oversimplifications. You're welcome.

OK. Well, that was thoroughly exhausting and depressing for me to do, but I replied, defended myself, and hope I cleared a few misunderstandings up. Of course, since I couldn't keep all the passion and frustration out of my words, I probably PO'ed some people, as well. Two steps forward, three back.
As for that coherent list of questions I wanted answered . . .

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No prob.

1) What are you trying to accomplish by determining who is more evil?

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This assumes that I am trying to determine who is more 'evil' in the first place.

What exactly do I find 'evil'? Perpetuated denial and an unwillingness to accept responsibility.

2) Would you consider it constructive to tell your Japanese friends their country ranks worse than Nazi Germany?

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Ranks worse in terms of what?

3) Why not use the slaughter of Native Americans by European colonists? I bet some of you are of European descent; I am on my father's side. Where do we rank with Nazi Germany?

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By 'we' do you mean the present-day 'we' who have conducted numerous historical studies that have acknowledged and have accepted our roles in the forced migration and slaughtering of Native Americans, or the past 'we' who were in the process of slaughtering them?

4) Do European-descended Americans deserve forgiveness for the atrocities commited against Native Americans? If so, why us (I say 'us' because I am at least in part of European-descent) and not the Japanese?

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You've completely ignored one important aspect. I won't answer this until you actually address WHY people are so upset about the subject matter these days.

5) Do you never want to forgive the Japanese? Can you state in concrete terms what it would take for you to forgive the Japanese and move on?

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See above.

https://jref.com/society/sino-japanese-relations.shtml

6) What is the point of the numerous threads rehashing the same topics of Japanese guilt over and over? (This is a critical question for me!!!)

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1. The Japanese as a whole have not yet fully acknowledged their role in WW2 and, in fact, actively deny the more serious war crimes. I assume you've checked out news sources about this, so you probably should know this already. There have, in addition, been numerous members of the JRef forum who have exemplified this attitude.

2. Their social institutions give them a dangerously slanted view of their position with the rest of the world.

3. It's a big subject for people.

7) Does anyone . . . ANYONE understand why I am so depressed about all this!? (

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Yes. You're frustrated by the perception that the Japanese are being constantly demonized and that people are saying they're all like that.

What exactly is being condemned, and why?

Ever stopped to think about why these "rehashers" are so frustrated with the whole subject matter?

I looked very hard indeed at the arguments presented to me, and I responded to them as I have done before.

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Another reason that I linked the other forum you were in was that there have been further responses to your post after your temporary absence.

Now it is your turn to look very hard at the arguments and questions I have presented to you.

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The questions all seemed to completely miss the point of why I and many others are so frustrated about this whole thing.

Late night ramblings/musings . . .

Talk of all the rotten luck . . . not but a week-and-a-half after returning to work from my surgery, I injure my right knee and sprain my right ankle! :auch: So now, I find myself unable to sleep (even after taking the prescribed 'happy-sleepy drugs') and figuring there is no time like the present to continue this present dialogue. Being as late as it is and sleepy as I am, please, forgive me if there are more typoes or strange sentence constructs than usual. Anyway, on to the continuing saga of this present debate . . .

lastmagi said:

There've been worse, if you think this is bad.

If anything, there's always the adrenaline rush.

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Heh . . . Well, I'm glad that things aren't the worst, and I'm glad that we can still joke about it. In the heat of debate and argument, if we can still laugh I feel relieved! Thank you for your levity!

lastmagi said:

Since you refuse to point out specifics, it becomes hard to see where you're coming from.

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The reason that I don't want to go into specifics about it is that I neither want to engage in a debate about whether my feelings were justifiable or not, nor is that the main point. And, I think I may have been in error to bring up my feelings because it may have clouded the issue, which is the problems I see with a certain type of repetitive criticism of Japan.
I brought up my feelings mainly to explain why I feel so strongly about the issues I am currently addressing. The reference to that particular thread is so that anyone can go see an example (only in part, to be sure) of the type of criticism to which I refer and attempting to problematize.

lastmagi said:

Where are the impassioned, poorly supported responses?

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lastmagi said:

I just want to know what you perceived as impassioned and/or poorly supported arguments that ultimately contributed to your pummeling.

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I will provide examples . . . but, only because it applies, I think, towards my concerns about problematic criticism of the Japanese. Mind you, these are examples only; I am not trying to be exhaustive in their listing. Also, I am leaving out names, because I don't want anyone to feel like I am trying to pick on them.

Discussion is impossible without generalisations, especially when it comes to differences between cultures or national groups.

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Actually, I can tell you as a graduate in the field of anthropology, that we are expected to be very specific when discussing cultural differences. It may be difficult, but it is not impossible. That I spent four years meeting that standard of expectation set by my professors leads me to disagree with this statement.
As to why I might feel this statement is not supported, it (and the parts before and after) do not make clear whether this person has tried to discuss a culture or national group in specific. In addition, I can problematize generalizations all day long. For example, when I asked are Americans also considered racists because of the prevelance of racial epithets (sp?) I hear used day-to-day, I received:

This might get slightly off topic but I would have to say, no. Americans in general are not racist. But is racism still a major problem in the US? I'd say yes. If you disagree, you're probably white.

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So, a distinction is made that there are Americans who are and are not racist, and thus one cannot generally apply the term racist to Americans. But, then this is followed up with the "probably white" comment. According to what study or survey? OK, OK, I realize that often people are just writing their opinion in forums. That's fine. But, if you just write your opinion without something to back it up (references from scholarly texts, accurate surveys, what have you), it is inherently unsupported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokusu
1) Japanese are individuals and not all are racist!

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I think this is a moot point. This erases the role of culture and institutions influencing individual attitudes. Of course not all are racist. But can we really assume that individuals exist independently of each other?

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Um . . . no. I never said that culture or society does not have an impact on the individual or that existence is completely independent. I would say, don't read into what I said, just read waht I said: Japanese are individuals and are not all racist. This is true. As for individuality in Japan or any culture, you need only look at how law is applied. If you speed, for example, the individual is given a speeding ticket. Individuals are accountable for themselves. In the Nuremberg trials of Nazi Germans and in the trials of Japanese war criminals following Allied victory in the Pacific, the argument that, "I did it because I was part of the group! I am not individually responsible!" was not accepted. Therefore, I would say that we do expect people to be individuals even as they are members of a greater social network.
That all Japanese are not racists is not a moot point, either. It is a very important point, because it shows that there are Japanese who are progressive and understanding, who are working for positive change as individuals and within their culture. For example, there is the SGI Nichiren Daishonen buddhist sect and their president Ikeda Daisuke-san who actively promote global and multicultural understanding and peace between all peoples. You are talking about an organization begun in Japan that is millions strong. So, apparently a Japanese person can be a part of Japanese society and culture and yet not end up reacist. Thus, the role of culture and institutions in not necessarily uniform nor all-consuming in its effect. Thus, why cultural generalizations are problematic. This then, to me, represents an unsupported argument.

I hope these couple of examples are illuminative. I still get exhausted by the whole cut and paste from one place to another (though, yes, I will agree with you that there is sometimes the need or value in doing so). I am not sure that someone who already read what was said who disagreed with me before will agree with me now. And, by cutting and pasting selections, I feel I run the risk of messing up the context, which will only serve to confuse the issue, not resolve it.
I did the cut and past thing this post as an experiment to see if it helped in this debate. If comes back and bites me in the hind quarters, I can't imagine that I will want to do so again. I really do advocate just going and reading the original posts.
Oh, criminy . . . where was I? . . .

Oh, as for the scare quotes, this is from the article you make reference to:

The phrase in quote marks is not a quotation from anyone in particular, but merely a term which is used by some people . . .

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I consider myself a someone in particular, since it was my post to which you were replying.

Scare quotes are quotation marks placed around a word or phrase from which you, the writer, wish to distance yourself because you consider that word or phrase to be odd or inappropriate for some reason.

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Well, I am glad you wished to distance yourself from the words "Japan bashers" as well. But since I didn't use the word or phrase, I don't see as you distancing yourself from anything I said specifically.
Anyway, I would invite a more careful reading of the article regarding scare quotes, because I am not certain this was an intended or appropriate use of them.

lastmagi said:

You seem adept at taking everything literally, even punctuations!

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I would like to think that I am attempting to take everything accurately.

lastmagi said:

Thanks for putting unwarranted (and, of course, completely unfounded) words in my mouth.

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Eh? Which words are those? First I am too literal and then I am putting words into people's mouths! You will, please, address this, because if I quoted something, it was written. As for putting words into someone's mouth . . .

lastmagi said:

But words such as fervor and vehemence are indicative of irrationality, or at least clouded, spur-of-the-moment, uncontrolled thinking (which is what I was getting at anyway with the word irrationality). Again, you're being way too literal, so much so that you're missing the point while you're busy triumphantly claiming "See! I didn't say that!" at every chance that you get (which of course you didn't say explicitly).

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I am being way too literal? I am being way too literal?!? If I didn't say something, I didn't say something! That isn't being too literal, that is being accurate! I have even taken the time to go back an explain what I have written when it has been apparently unclear for you.

I would ask that you question my credibility less, because, yes, it is aggravating to have to spend half of my posts and time defending myself before I can even begin to approach the questions that I raised. Why do you do this?!? Are you trying to invalidate my questions by invalidating me? The first thing you have addressed in the last couple of responses to my posts is my style of debate, not the issues that I ask be answered to. You know what, I get it. You and I write and debate differently. I cannot tell you to not go after my style of writing and debate, because what is valid to you is valid to you for discussion. But, Ic an say, personally, it aggravates me to no end! It isn't that I cannot handle being questioned; I got that all the time from my professors. But, I am trying very hard to discuss broader issues, not the semantics of every single post I make. Does it seem that way? Hm . . . that is a thought that I have had. Well, then, how about I just stop taking the time to defend myself and stick to the main issues with dogged single-mindedness? Maybe that is what I should do. It'll be hard; when I feel like my credibility and veracity are being questioned, it seems but natural for me to want to defend myself. But, I guess, as I would say to someone else, this perhaps clouds the issues. Fine, I will take a risk and stop defending myself, hoping to be understood by what I say the first time, and in so doing, hopefully draw attention back to the questions and issues at hand.

===

So, now, you'll pardon me if I jump straight to those questions and issues.

lastmagi said:

Quote:
1) What are you trying to accomplish by determining who is more evil?

This assumes that I am trying to determine who is more 'evil' in the first place.

What exactly do I find 'evil'? Perpetuated denial and an unwillingness to accept responsibility.

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"Japan acted worse than Germany during WWII" - it would seem by its very title that this thread is actually about determining who is worse (germany or Japan). And I did not ask what do people find evil, I asked what is trying to be accomplished by ranking the Japanese and Germans as such. So, this question remains unanswered.

lastmagi said:

Quote:
2) Would you consider it constructive to tell your Japanese friends their country ranks worse than Nazi Germany?

Ranks worse in terms of what?

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In terms of "Japan acted worse than Germany during WWII". But, again, the question is whether or not you view this as constructive. So, this question, too, remains unanswered.

lastmagi said:

Quote:
3) Why not use the slaughter of Native Americans by European colonists? I bet some of you are of European descent; I am on my father's side. Where do we rank with Nazi Germany?

By 'we' do you mean the present-day 'we' who have conducted numerous historical studies that have acknowledged and have accepted our roles in the forced migration and slaughtering of Native Americans, or the past 'we' who were in the process of slaughtering them?

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Have 'we' acknowledged and accepted our roles so much? As far as I am aware, Native Americans still have only claim to small reservations in comparison to what was taken from them. Perhaps this topic is worthy of its own thread elsewhere. But, my question had to do with our ranking with WW II Germany and Japan. Since Japan the present is measured by Japan of the past (and I am not saying this is without merit on certain issues), I am wondering why not measure present-day America for its past as well? And, do you consider the atrocities commited by European colonists better or worse than those atrocities commited by Germans during WW II? I ask this to brign to light the problem with trying to make such comparisons; I question their constructiveness. This question remains unanswered.

lastmagi said:

Quote:
4) Do European-descended Americans deserve forgiveness for the atrocities commited against Native Americans? If so, why us (I say 'us' because I am at least in part of European-descent) and not the Japanese?

You've completely ignored one important aspect. I won't answer this until you actually address WHY people are so upset about the subject matter these days.

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Well, you can certainly choose to answer my question or not. But, as it stands, this question remains unanswered.

lastmagi said:

Quote:
5) Do you never want to forgive the Japanese? Can you state in concrete terms what it would take for you to forgive the Japanese and move on?

See above.

https://jref.com/society/sino-jap...elations.shtml

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So, Japan will be forgiven if:

1 Apologise formally to China for its war crimes, and not as a part of another speech. Ideally the Emperor should be the one to apologise.
2 Change history books used in schools and explain clearly and neutrally what happened during WWII, including the Nanjing massacre.
3 Prohibit politicians from making racist comments or negate actual facts (about WWII).
4 Prohibit politicians from going to Yasukuni-jinja, or move war criminals somewhere else.
5 Avoid sanctioning or over-taxing Chinese products
6 Make it easier for Chinese people born in Japan to be naturalized, (and possibly also for Chinese tourists to visit Japan).

Thank you for answering this question. Sometime I think I would like to discuss this in more depth . . .

lastmagi said:

Quote:
6) What is the point of the numerous threads rehashing the same topics of Japanese guilt over and over? (This is a critical question for me!!!)

1. The Japanese as a whole have not yet fully acknowledged their role in WW2 and, in fact, actively deny the more serious war crimes. I assume you've checked out news sources about this, so you probably should know this already. There have, in addition, been numerous members of the JRef forum who have exemplified this attitude.

2. Their social institutions give them a dangerously slanted view of their position with the rest of the world.

3. It's a big subject for people.

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Thank you, again, for answering the question. I am not certain that these reasons justify the multiplicity of threads that overlap in their criticisms. But, when I have more energy, at least we have an answer to a question to move forward in our debate.

lastmagi said:

Quote:
7) Does anyone . . . ANYONE understand why I am so depressed about all this!? (

Yes. You're frustrated by the perception that the Japanese are being constantly demonized and that people are saying they're all like that.

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Yep. Though, I would say repeatedly versus constantly. I do give credit for people having other things to say about the Japanese here in the forums.

OKies. So questions 1 through 4 still need answers, and 5, 6, and 7 can now be debated regarding the answers provided. I think progress is being made, though it has been painful.

I'm spent for now, so I will just have to post later about the issues I wish to address. Thanks for replying, and if you can, please, look at questions 1 through 4 again.

Kokusu and Lastmagi,
i can't believe u spend time on this pointless argument. however, while reading and observing, i have to side w/ lastmagi.
Kokusu, it may seem to you that many people have been bashing the japanese, but while reading this thread, its the japanese government that the majority of the posters have issues with.
In threads that deal w/ japanese war crimes, you are always gonna have people that have hatred towards the japanese, you have to accept that. why? because, have you had your grandparents murdered? have you had your grandmother raped? If you had, I'm very sorry. But many of the korean and chinese people do know people and family directly affected by the japanese occupation. You should be more open minded and have sympathy for these people. I know many japanese who are. but what can they do? nothing. its the government's responsibility to educate its people. Now, imagine you have indeed had your grandparents tortured, or raped. What if someone came to you and said, hey, its the past. just forget about and move on. Ok, how would u feel? personally, i would feel outrageous. I'm not assuming you would have ever said that, but you can atleast be more patient w/ these posters, and not cry and wine and post like you were some victim of narrow minded posters who don't care about you. You've totally changed this thread to a thread about japanese war crimes, to a thread about "Kokusu's feelings". okay, the thread title question. well, having visited many forums, the title often gets lost, and people go on slight tangents. its obvious w/ this title that its going to focus on japanese war crimes. so in context most people were beginning to talk about the war crimes more than who was worse. so if you kept up the reading you would have known that the question, or title in the thread was just a means to get the message about japanese war crimes not being accounted for. not to see who was actually worse. anyways, those are my bits after reading this. you are however intitled to your opinion, but what you say has no relevance to this discussion in this thread. you are obviously trying to gain compassion from others by seeming to be the victim of some other posters. the true victims in here are not any of us posters, but the actually people who had to endure the pain caused in the last centurey by the japanese and can't get their stories told to the rest of the world. i hope you can understand the humanity that is at stake here, not just the butting of intellectual heads and debating. there are people in this world, survivors of the japanese occupation who have no voice. many are at fault for this. the jews got their story told, why not these poor asians. i hope you atleast sympathize w/ these people even if you don't agree w/ many of the posters here.

I am of north korean ancestry. My family has stories of japanese occupation and then the casualty of the korean war. my grandfather, a survivor of both wwII and the korean war, just passed away. His story untold, but just known to my own family. His brothers and sisters taken away by the japanese, his father murdered by North Korean commies. that is a tragedy.

I hope japanese posters who feel offended by some of the japanese bashing here will atleast understand that its not really targetted to them but their government. I humbly ask for your patience w/ these posters and maybe some sympathy towards what is really at issue. the victims of these serious war crimes.

canadiangook said:

Kokusu and Lastmagi,
i can't believe u spend time on this pointless argument.

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If it matters to us, the argument is not pointless. So, whether or not you believe it, it will be discussed. Also, if it is pointless, why did you bother to respond?

canadiangook said:

In threads that deal w/ japanese war crimes, you are always gonna have people that have hatred towards the japanese, you have to accept that. why? because, have you had your grandparents murdered? have you had your grandmother raped?

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Let me see if I get what you are saying correctly:
Unless I have grandparents who are murdered or raped, I have to accept hatred of a specific ethnicity/culture/nation?
Hm, well, then I would have to accept when people say they hate Mexicans for 'stealing' jobs because I have never had a job stolen. Oh, wait, my mother is of Mexican descent, so I guess I would be the job stealer, then. So, I guess I have to doubly accept the hatred.
I'm neither Jewish nor Arab, I don't have any family that suffered through the Holocaust or were displaced when the new Israel state was formed, so I guess I should just accept that many Jews hate Arabs, and many Arabs hate Jews.
Wow, this never really ends, does it? I guess we will all just have to accept hatred, because we have not all personally experienced each kind of suffering to be had out there in the world. Pfft!

I don't believe that at all! First, I can understand that there are people who hate other people because of ethnic/racial/national tensions, but I will never accept it! I recognize that hatred exists, but I will never approve of it! Secondly, I do not believe that I need personally (or by proxy via near relatives) experience something to be able to form a informed, intelligent, and reasoned opinion and response to it! Imagine how limited dialogue would be if people were only allowed to comment upon what they themselves, their parents, or their grandparents experienced. Furthermore, because one's grandparents experienced something does not make one's immediate experience the same. For example, my grandfather experienced much racism directed towards him as an immigrant from Mexico to the U.S. I, on the other hand, have faced very little in my life directly (though, strong resentment and racism does still exist in many places in the U.S. towards Mexican immigrants). Racism is still a very important issue to me, but I view the descendants of those who mistreated my grandfather for their own actions, not the actions of those two generations before. More on this in a bit . . .

canadiangook said:

But many of the korean and chinese people do know people and family directly affected by the japanese occupation. You should be more open minded and have sympathy for these people.

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What makes you think I am close-minded or lack sympathy for the people who have suffered the atrocities committed by the Japanese before and during WW II?!? No, really, I'd like an answer. Let's see, I've addressed that I don't like the same issues rehashed over and over without progress being made, I've wondered what it would take to forgive the Japanese (versus exhonerate), and I've even, as counterpoint to my own arguments, mentioned that I do believe in the merit of discussing Japan's wrongdoings and working towards accountability. I don't ever remember mentioning that I felt a lack of sympathy for the victims of the Japanese occupation or stating that I was unwilling to hear about it at all (referring to your idea that I need to be more open-minded). Your implication is not accurate, nor is it appreciated.

canadiangook said:

Now, imagine you have indeed had your grandparents tortured, or raped. What if someone came to you and said, hey, its the past. just forget about and move on. Ok, how would u feel? personally, i would feel outrageous. I'm not assuming you would have ever said that, but you can atleast be more patient w/ these posters, and not cry and wine and post like you were some victim of narrow minded posters who don't care about you. You've totally changed this thread to a thread about japanese war crimes, to a thread about "Kokusu's feelings".

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1) Actually, in several courses that I have taken addressing the nature of the Japanese atrocities unleashed upon the rest of Asia, I have spent more time than I care to repeat imagining those horrors. I have never come to a conclusion or a desire that they should be forgotten. But, yes, I do believe people at some point should move on. Of course, you fail to address or even speculate as to what manner of moving on I might advocate (advocacy, healing, accountablity, prevention, legal recourse, and so on . . . enough for several other threads, so I will not write it all out here). Forget the past? No. Important lessons are learned from it. Live in and obssess over the past? Well, this is an arbitrary perception to be sure, but I think it does happen and is neither productive nor healthy when it does.

2) "Cry and wine"? (BTW, it's spelled 'w-h-i-n-e', though often I feel I could use some wine while replying to threads such as these) Well, gee, thanks for summing up my efforts at intelligent dialogue and discussion as crying and whining. Tell you what, why not try and flip that around? How well do you think it would go over if instead of me being the one who is crying and whining, we just said that if you disagree with me you are crying and whining? Probably wouldn't go over so well, would it? Then try to imagination that that comment wasn't appreciated or found constructive at all by myself.
And if I felt that anyone was being "narrow-minded", it wasn't about me, it was about Japan! It was about progress! It was about the Japanese who are good and decent people and how the Japanese are all not racist monsters born out of WW II imperialism! It was about how Japan now is not the same as Japan 60 years ago! Hey, you want to talk about me? Great, I have a big ego! Why don't you PM me, I'll give you my phone number, and we can talk about me all you want! But, as for here you will want to remember that I actually tried to keep the dialogue focused by asking seven direct questions about the topic (!) and by expressing a desire to stop talking about myself! But, since people seem to continue want to question my credibility, compassion (or whatever you wish question me over) versus dialogue directly about the questions I raised, I will continue to defend myself!

3) "Kokusu's feelings"? I feel like having a sip of water (gulp). Mm! That was good! I feel like not wearing my leg brace right now! Ah! Such relief! I feel like screaming and bonking my head against the monitor! Oops! No, no . . . bad, kokusu! Well, saracasm aside (and I'm sorry already that I let that much out), you ask me to have sympathy for others than chastise me for having emotions of my own.
As for making this thread about "Kokusu's feelings", I have, as I just pointed out, tried to make it about seven topic-related questions concerning what is in my opinion very unproductive and questionable criticism of Japan. If you don't want it to be about "Kokusu's feelings", then all you have to do is stop talking about me and respond to the questions I raised!!! Good grief! Have I mentioned my feelings? Absolutely! And why not? I have mentioned time and again how frustrating it is to have to defend myself rather than discuss the issues! Read the questions, respond to the questions, write topic-related questions of your own!!! To heck with Kokusu; let's not talk about him at all! He's not even that interesting a person!!! Let's talk about why there are so many threads with the same criticisms posted again and again about Japan! Let's talk about over-the-top accusations that are made against Japan as if no other country has done wrong, and as if Japan has not improved since WW II! Let's talk about how Japanese people who are for peace and progress might feel being lumped together with Japanese who are wrong! Yes, yes, let's talk about the issues! I agree!
I've made this topic about "Kokusu's feelings"? Augh!!!!!

canadiangook said:

okay, the thread title question. well, having visited many forums, the title often gets lost, and people go on slight tangents. its obvious w/ this title that its going to focus on japanese war crimes. so in context most people were beginning to talk about the war crimes more than who was worse. so if you kept up the reading you would have known that the question, or title in the thread was just a means to get the message about japanese war crimes not being accounted for. not to see who was actually worse.

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So, I should just loosen up about thread titles? I just want to make sure I understand your meaning here. Well, how about a thread title like, "Chinese are more reprehensible than the Mongol horde"? Or perhaps, "North Koreans are psychotic and should be put under martial law before spreading nuclear horror"? I think titles can have a powerful impact (good or bad), and since they are the first thing that someone sees when going to a thread, should be considered carefully when written. And, as part of a post, I think titles are fair game for comment.
As for "the thread was just a means to get the message about japanese war crimes not being accounted for. not to see who was actually worse," then you may want to explain why in the first page there were two extensive posts compartively listing death tolls and types of deaths resulting from Japanese and German WW II wartime aggression. You may also want to explain why the author of this thread, in his first post, compared Japan to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy if the point was just about Japanese accountabliity and not seeing where on a comparative scale of bad/evil/whatever-you-want-to-call-it it country fell. The 'tangent' that you view as 'obvious' from this thread's title is not so obvious to me, neither as it stands by itself or from the posts that followed. So when you challenge to keep up on the reading, I think the issues that I raise demonstrate that I have.

canadiangook said:

anyways, those are my bits after reading this. you are however intitled to your opinion, but what you say has no relevance to this discussion in this thread. you are obviously trying to gain compassion from others by seeming to be the victim of some other posters.

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What I say has no relevance? I am trying to be a victim? You know, this bit is just plain insulting! You want to discuss relevance, why don't you answer the issue-related questions I raised instead of attacking my character!
What I say has no relevance? If you really feel that way, spare me the insults and don't even bother replying to my posts! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

canadiangook said:

i hope you can understand the humanity that is at stake here, not just the butting of intellectual heads and debating. there are people in this world, survivors of the japanese occupation who have no voice. many are at fault for this. the jews got their story told, why not these poor asians. i hope you atleast sympathize w/ these people even if you don't agree w/ many of the posters here.

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First, you have no idea how I feel about the suffering of the victims of the Japanese occupation! Don't you dare suggest that I lack a compassion for those who suffered or imply that I confuse the needs of those people with a simpel intellectual debate! To do so means you have not bothered to digest even half of what I am saying! I sympathize with them! DON'T FORGET THAT!
I believe that every victim deserves a voice. I am glad that the people who suffered under the Japanese are finally being heard. But, they do have a voice, otherwise we would not even begin to be able to address their needs.
You need to look at what I have asked, issues I have raised, and consider my posts more carefully. I do not want to deny the atrocities commited by the Japanese nor prevent criticism of the Japanese where it is duly needed! But, I have always strived to advocate that that criticism be productive, principled, balanced, and understanding that the Japanese are a multi-faceted people deserving of the same respect that they are being asked to give. I have asked pointed questions that are directly about the issues found within this forum and about those I consider of grave importance. Instead of addressing those, you come here and attack and insult me repeatedly, then ask me to forgoe discussing how this might make me feel while increasing my sympathy for others!

Why don't you take some time to read my posts, consider the issues that I am trying to address, and respond to my questions (post #115). I took the time to address your issues with me, now maybe you can spend some time addressing the questions I raised. To date, only 3 of the 7 have been answered at all, and the 3 that have been answered haven't received much discussion yet.
But, if you just want to talk more of what you think about Kokusu, perhaps you can start the "Kokusu is an unsympathetic, self-victimizing, irrelevant whiner" thread. I'll be sure to avoid it like the plague so you don't have to hear me crying!

kokusu said:

So, I should just loosen up about thread titles?

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Seemingly.

As for "the thread was just a means to get the message about japanese war crimes not being accounted for. not to see who was actually worse," then you may want to explain why in the first page there were two extensive posts compartively listing death tolls and types of deaths resulting from Japanese and German WW II wartime aggression. You may also want to explain why the author of this thread, in his first post, compared Japan to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy if the point was just about Japanese accountabliity and not seeing where on a comparative scale of bad/evil/whatever-you-want-to-call-it it country fell. The 'tangent' that you view as 'obvious' from this thread's title is not so obvious to me, neither as it stands by itself or from the posts that followed.

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The 1st post:

victorinuscheung said:

Japanese government do not apologise what they did in the World War 2.She is worse than Germany and Italy.Now she even claim that the island near to Korea is her.Fishing island is occupied by her.She is crazy.Japanese government's behaviour and the acting just like Hitler(Nazi Party) and Mussolini(Fascist Party).

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It seems pretty obvious that this particular post is about the behaviour of the Japanese government, not about hatred towards Japanese.

Mind you, the author is probably Chinese, & therefore his English skills have to be considered as well.

Bossel, I think your reply fails to seriously address the issues I was raising (like the 7 questions I posted for starters).

You did think I needed to loosen up about thread titles, but you failed to respond how the mock example thread titles I provided would make you feel if you were to read them, or address the fact that thread titles are the first thing someone sees before getting to a thread. There is an important point there; simply, if the the words word reversed and said about you, how would you feel?

And, yes in the first post it is "Japanese government" that is mentioned (though I still question the productivity of stating that the Japanese goverment, in the present tense I think?, is just like Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy . . . and 'crazy', too). But, how this thread reflects attitudes towards the Japanese people in general . . .

I think what's at the heart of the matter is that Japan feels that it has already reconciled its past, but the rest of Asia sees Japan's reconciliation with the West only and NOT its Asian neighbors. (I'm still amazed at how Japanese people trip over themselves in trying to accomodate Caucasians who speak English versus Asians from China, Malaysia, Korea, etc.)

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(emphasis added)

And do the jap feel guilty??? I think no..

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or maybe u ppl japanese never feel guilty bcause killing ppl for ye emperor is always correct....

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In fact, if Japan really wanted to apologise sincerely, it would let all the country it invaded occupy and control Japan, both politically and economically (as Japan did to them) during the same duration as Japan occupied each of them. There would be no killing, rape, slave labor or comfort women, so that's a preety advantageous deal for Japan, I'd think. They only get to repay for the material and political upheaval they created, not the human cost and suffering. But I am sure that would still be too much to ask them, because after all they are not really sincere in their apologies. Hypocritical as always.

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(emphasis added)

Quite exceptional for a country which is definitely obsessed with small things... like statistics, not to do this when it is not convenient IS the Japanese way....

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It is justly what makes me angry because I do not want Japanese politicians or so many ordinary people to be as backward as they are in their way of thinking now.

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Shouldn't you rather compare Germans than Chinese to Japanese?

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This is perhaps why, not only the IJ military, but also the gov't, and the people of IJ are blamed along with the spearheads of IJ militarism. No totalitarian gov't/military can successfully carry out its murderous plans without the help of civlian collaborators

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So, I don't think you can extrapolate your statement about this being about just the Japanese government to hold true over the thread in general, and then, considering the points I was trying to make a bout a certain kind of discourse, over the many threads critical of the Japanese in general as well.

Now, then, may I assume you were going to be addressing my seven questions (well, now only six, since number seven is no longer valid as someone pointed out I'm not allowed to talk about my feelings . . .)? I notice I continue to get replies about the validity/credibility/what-have-you of my posts, but no one seems to want to really address my questions/issues concerning the nature of critical discourse of and about Japan as it has been actualized here on the J-Ref forums. I begin to wonder if they have been forgotten . . . probably . . . post#115 if anyone cares.

kokusu said:

Bossel, I think your reply fails to seriously address the issues I was raising (like the 7 questions I posted for starters).

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Well, I don't feel like being addressed by these questions.

you failed to respond how the mock example thread titles I provided would make you feel if you were to read them,

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Your mock examples show mock opinions. Since I'm all for free speech, I don't have problems with opinions, even less with mock opinions. Only, my function in this forum may lead me to edit or delete threads with stuff that doesn't conform to forum rules.

or address the fact that thread titles are the first thing someone sees before getting to a thread.

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Ah well, I'm not susceptible to 1st impressions. Titles are only to get attention, what really counts is the content.

There is an important point there; simply, if the the words word reversed and said about you, how would you feel?

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No problem, though I might address the content if I find it to be questionable or interesting.

And, yes in the first post it is "Japanese government" that is mentioned (though I still question the productivity of stating that the Japanese goverment, in the present tense I think?, is just like Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy . . . and 'crazy', too).

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Well, it is the current government that doesn't address war-related questions in an appropriate manner. The sentence with Nazi & Fascist (party, not Germany) reference is a bit ambiguous & therefore open to interpretation.

But, how this thread reflects attitudes towards the Japanese people in general
[...]
So, I don't think you can extrapolate your statement about this being about just the Japanese government to hold true over the thread in general

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Which I didn't say, anyway. I only responded to your remark about the author of the thread.

Now, then, may I assume you were going to be addressing my seven questions

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Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokusu
Bossel, I think your reply fails to seriously address the issues I was raising (like the 7 questions I posted for starters).

Well, I don't feel like being addressed by these questions.

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You don't feel like being addressed by my questions? Fine. I don't feel like addressing/replying to your posts, then.

And, for anyone else who wants to go that way . . . don't expect that I shall very much be inclined to respond to your comments and criticisms if you don't want to address the points that I have tried to bring up . . .

Hi everybody! I tried to read most of those posts, but I have to admit that it is more than what I actually read in English during all my English lessons, so I had to bypass some parts ;-) Anyway, there is just one question I'd like to ask here. It has perhaps already been asked in other posts, but permit me to ask it here too: what if the war had been won by Japan? Would USA have had to apologize for the atomic bombs? In other words, would Japan have still been culprit of their "war crimes" if they'd won the war? I hope that this question is not rude to anyone…