Is "Gaijin" a Racist Slur?

[Hachiro]

And I have no idea what a punk on a lark is.

Someone on the JET program or otherwise known as a human tape recorder.
.

 

[JimmySeal]

Someone on the JET program or otherwise known as a human tape recorder.
.

You really burned me there.

Gender:
Male
Occupation:
Tape Recorder
Japan-related interests:
Japanese language
Other interests:
music

After working my arse off through four years of high school and four years of college, I figured I owed it to myself to take an overseas vacation with a $30,000 salary. Once I'm done here, I'll use my engineering degree and language certification to get a nice job making more money than you ever will.

 

[Hachiro]

I figured I owed it to myself to take an overseas vacation with a $30,000 salary. Once I'm done here, I'll use my engineering degree and language certification to get a nice job making more money than you ever will.

Good lord, grow up. Where ever you go or live you will still be a "gaijin"

 

[JimmySeal]

Sure. Because I'm so immature, I have to insult people I know nothing about, and make up imaginary characteristics for them. Oh waiddaminute. It was you who did that. See? I'm so ignorant I can barely keep the facts straight. You're really wasting your time trying to reason with a fool like me. Ha ha I did it again. You're not trying to reason with me. You're just flinging unsubstantiated insults. Intelligent...thought...failing...


Luckily for me, my self-esteem isn't wrapped up in trying to fit into a group, but in your case, always remember: ﾂ出窶堙ｩﾂ杭窶堙坂?佚??堋ｽ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩﾂ。

 

[gaijinalways]

Guys, you're drifting off thread. Certainly there are expectations within certain countries to act a certain way, but this is where value systems come in to play. If I move to the MiddleEast, I'm not suddenly going to feel that blowing people up because they have a different religion than me is okay. So as to that is the way they do it, it would be nice (though not necessarily realistic) if japanese people would start thinking about how others see it, namely the ones that they use the label for. Since they themselves don't seem to like it when it is used to refer to them, I would suspect that it is showing a sort of class judgement, which in a sense would be insulting to most people.

 

[Mike Cash]

If someone complained about the way that many American southerners refer to black people, would you say, "Don't criticize them. That's just the way they use their language."?

Please tell me how American Southerners refer to black people in a way that is unique to American Southerners.

(I never heard blacks referred to as "baboons" until I went to that great Southern city, Philadelphia.)

 

[Hachiro]

Luckily for me, my self-esteem isn't wrapped up in trying to fit into a group,

You have no idea how hard I laughed when I read that one. I am the farthest thing from a person trying to fit into a group....unless it is a group of one...meaning me, myself and I.... oops that's a group of three!

I am a realist Jimmy and the longer you live here you will understand more and more that the system and people are not going to change for you. I am a chameleon, I adapt to the situation that I am in, nothing more nothing less.

You are either an idiot or a naive child if you think the Japanese people are going to change for you, you'll just end up being another one of those arrogant "gaijin" that are "put" up with but never really listened to or cared about, they will forget about you the day before you leave.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

The overuse of the word gaikokujin reflects an additude, in my opinion, that all non-Japanese should be lumped into one group, and they should be treated differently from Japanese people most of the time.

Could you elaborate on this point? I'd like to hear what you have to say.

 

[JimmySeal]

Please tell me how American Southerners refer to black people in a way that is unique to American Southerners.
(I never heard blacks referred to as "baboons" until I went to that great Southern city, Philadelphia.)

The only thing unique about the way Southerners refer to black people, if anything, is the lack of reserve they have towards various words beginning with 'n' and 'c.' Besides, I never said there was anything unique about the South. It was merely an example, but there sure are places where people don't talk like that. To the best of my knowledge, they don't have any unique terminology.

Could you elaborate on this point? I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Other people have covered this in depth, but it seems all too often that when people who've known me for several months talk about me, they use the word "gaikokujin" rather than "Amerikajin." Calling me an American would obviously convey the fact that I'm foreign, but that bit of information is irrelevant. I'm foreign, and that's all they really want to say. It's also often the case that when people want to ask me questions about other people like me, they ask "Do other gaikokujin yadda yadda?" or "In gaikoku, blah blah?" How the heck should I know information that encompasses all the non-Japanese in the world? I lived in New Jersey all my life before I came here.

It's often the case that Japanese people assume I'm ignorant of their language because I'm not Asian. If I go out to dinner with an Asian person, even if I speak to the waiting staff in Japanese, most of the time any information that the waiter/waitress wants to give me will usually be directed at the Asian person. Here they are assuming:
(1) that I don't understand Japanese
(2) that my Asian friend does understand Japanese. This because they assume that any Asian in Japan is surely not one of those gaikoku Asians.
(3) that my Asian friend speaks English or whatever my native language may be (because of #1)
they're usually wrong on at least two of those counts, and even if they were right on all 3, it would still be deplorable. In most countries, even when speaking to someone through an interpreter, one speaks towards the other person, not the interpreter. And I don't want to hear that this is a "cultural difference." Racism isn't a cultural trait to be respected. It's just rude.

 

[gaijinalways]

Jimmyseal posted

Here they are assuming:
(1) that I don't understand Japanese
(2) that my Asian friend does understand Japanese. This because they assume that any Asian in Japan is surely not one of those gaikoku Asians.
(3) that my Asian friend speaks English or whatever my native language may be (because of #1)
they're usually wrong on at least two of those counts, and even if they were right on all 3, it would still be deplorable. In most countries, even when speaking to someone through an interpreter, one speaks towards the other person, not the interpreter. And I don't want to hear that this is a "cultural difference." Racism isn't a cultural trait to be respected. It's just rude.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, seems to be common here, 1, 2, and 3. As to speaking to you or the interpreter, hopefully both, rather than one or the other. Quite a few Japanese have looked at both of us when my wife has helped with interpreting (and my wife expects and asks me to do the same, not just look at her when I am replying).

As to whether that would be racism or not, seems more like a set of bad assumptions, which is acting on a bias and a stereotype of non-Japanese.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

After I started thinking of it as a numbers game, I stopped getting so upset over this phenomenon.

Knowing nothing about someone other than the way they look, which would you think is more likely to understand Japanese, someone who looks Asian (perhaps Japanese, even), or some white or black guy?

My vote goes for the Asian.

 

[Mike Cash]

In the course of googling answers for the map thread, I came across this old post which is relevant here:

Talking Frogs who Read as well

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Well, who initiates the conversation is obviously an important factor.

The problem is that one will never be able to say anything that will encompass the entire human experience as relates to this issue.

My point is that it just isn't worth getting upset over this. I have met my share of whities and blackies in Japan, and the number who could seriously carry on a conversation in Japanese was dwarfed by the number who couldn't. That is just my personal experience. I would be willing to place money down that the average Japanese person has a relatively comparable experience.

But here I feel it important to place a disclaimer. If anyone remembers, in old posts I have argued that this problem isn't necessarily as big as some would have you believe. I'm trying to think of the last time I was called a gaijin and it offended me. I really can't recall.

I can think of people who just assumed I couldn't speak Japanese even though I was speaking directly in front of them. No problem. I just don't associate with such people in the future.

But even so, it's really not worth getting upset over. Those times are far outweighed by the number of times that people didn't even bat an eye at me speaking Japanese. I have had it where people talked solely to me and looked only at me while they were actually speaking to some other foreigner.

This is hard to do perhaps, but don't look at Japanese people as Japanese. Don't look at yourself as a foreigner. Look at people as just plain people. You'd be amazed at how much that solves right there.

If you want people to change, often the best recourse is to change yourself and show a good example.

 

[gaijinalways]

Mikawa Ossan posted

This is hard to do perhaps, but don't look at Japanese people as Japanese. Don't look at yourself as a foreigner. Look at people as just plain people. You'd be amazed at how much that solves right there.
If you want people to change, often the best recourse is to change yourself and show a good example.

Hmm, sometimes this doesn't seem to be enough. Or sometimes what might be best is to just decide what is going to bother you and what won't. Actually what bothers me more is when foreign residents defend older Japanese discriminating because they are old! This just doesn't cut it in my world, let the old guys crawl back under a rock somewhere .

 

[Hachiro]

This is addressed to those that it matters most to....and NO individual in particular.

I've pretty much given up posting on this thread purely because there are way too many idealist's (read that as still matriculating or VERY recent graduates) and not realist's. You can also read that as naive to life and reality and still living in the coccoon of academia, where they were nutured by likewise thinking professors similar to a baby nursing at it's mother's breast.

They attempt to resort to falling back on to lessons recently learned in school to arrogantly critize a people a society and by default a country that they know little about from practical experience. They rely on what they were taught from textbooks, teachers or the internet.

You want to carry a chip on your shoulder's for the rest of your life because you think you are being discriminated against from the use of the word "gaijin" go ahead. In the long run it is you that will turn into the thing that disgusts you the most. Purely because you do not have an open mind (oh you say you do, but in reality not so) and expect other peoples and cultures to bend to your ways.

To me you will never be satisfied until this country Japan, and for that matter the world as well, bends to your misguided, yet altruistic view that the world will only be a better place when everyone accepts your misguided and arrogant view of political correctness.

Oh to those reading this and thinking; "What a condescending f**" fine, then in truth this may be directed towards you, and you might be better served by taking a deep breath and stop worrying about or being bothered by something so tiny and insignificant as the word "gaijin". It will save you a hell of a lot of stress and frustration, along with a better acceptance from those Japanese around you as well, who also in reality, don't really appreciate constantly hearing "gaijin" complain about them, their way of speaking and their country. Oh and lastly if it bothers you so much "Why the hell do you stay here?"

 

[JimmySeal]

Wow, Hachiro, you really do think you're better than some of us, don't you? Well, I hope you don't teach that kind of punctuation to your students. When you boast so proudly about being a real English teacher and not a charlatan like me, one would think that you could get things like that right.

After I started thinking of it as a numbers game, I stopped getting so upset over this phenomenon.
Knowing nothing about someone other than the way they look, which would you think is more likely to understand Japanese, someone who looks Asian (perhaps Japanese, even), or some white or black guy?
My vote goes for the Asian.

Remember now, that they are also assuming not only that this Asian person understands Japanese (in many cases they don't understand Japanese), but they are also assuming that this Asian person can interpret Japanese into my language. So the odds we're really looking at are "Asian person understands Japanese and speaks my language" vs. "white person understands Japanese." I'd say the odds are pretty split. Besides all that, they should be facing me because I'm the customer they're speaking to, and if I need my Asian friend to interpret what they said, that's fine. They can hear the waiter just fine if the waiter is facing me.
Also let me reiterate that most of the time, the waiters demonstrate this behavior after I've already ordered things and spoken to them in Japanese.

 

[Hachiro]

Wow, Hachiro, you really do think you're better than some of us, don't you? Well, I hope you don't teach that kind of punctuation to your students. When you boast so proudly about being a real English teacher and not a charlatan like me, one would think that you could get things like that right.

FYI, You are writing things that I never said nor claimed. In your case, and your case alone, yeah I due think I am better, at least in knowing a bit more about the culture and people here in Japan. Take that as you may, I really dont care.

Also let me reiterate that most of the time, the waiters demonstrate this behavior after I've already ordered things and spoken to them in Japanese.

So get used to it, it isnt worth losing any sleep over it, and for that matter the people are not going to change. It's just a part of life here, if you dont like it and it bothers you that much leave.

 

[jieshi]

Wow, Hachiro, you really do think you're better than some of us, don't you? Well, I hope you don't teach that kind of punctuation to your students. When you boast so proudly about being a real English teacher and not a charlatan like me, one would think that you could get things like that right.

Stop making personal attacks on everybody, it only slows down what you are trying to debate and you are responding a little too emotionally to most things that are being said in this thread.

Everybody has a view on this subject and many of those have been expressed. Personally I have lived in Japan as an exchange student, most people knew I could speak Japanese and still called me the Gaijin, they were not being racist but simply relaying information to other parties (even if it was irrelevant but we still need to keep in mind that gaijin are a rarity in Japan when compared with the native population).
The entirety of my stay in Japan only one person ever called me Gaijin with a racist connotation attached to the word, most waiters and general public who didn't realise I spoke Japanese responded with "Oh my gosh, you speak really good Japanese, that is so cool!". While it could be debated this gesture may be a nicety on behalf of the said party, generally they really meant what they said.

Also note most foreigners in Japan do not speak Japanese, therefore most Japanese will assume you don't speak Japanese, it is a stereotype that is very likely to not be overcome anytime soon, even the politest, western loving Japanese person is going to assume you don't speak Japanese (and then might proceed to practice their English on you).
In the end it is your choice whether you get upset and emotional about being called a "Gaijin", many people don't seem to care and this is demonstrated by jref (and many other websites) users choice of username e.g. "gaijinalways", "gaijingirl", "gaijingaijin" etc.
If you are really so offended by this term it then begs the question "why are you living in Japan if you feel so discriminated against?" or "What makes Japan so appealing to you in order to overshadow this thing that offends you so much?"

If your (JimmySeal) behaviour towards others in this thread is any indication of your behaviour or attitude towards Japanese people (or anybody on earth) in day to day life, then chances are people will direct racist connotations your way along with a slur of other insults as it seems you don稚 have much grace in your day to day dealings with others.

(please note I am not making a personal attack or "flame" against anybody I am only noting what I have seen throughout this thread)

 

[ArmandV]

A wise man once observed, "He who has a thin skin, should not live in Japan."

 

[jieshi]

A wise man once observed, "He who has a thin skin, should not live in Japan."

lol fantastic!

 

[JimmySeal]

Stop making personal attacks on everybody, it only slows down what you are trying to debate and you are responding a little too emotionally to most things that are being said in this thread.

Have you been following this thread, or did you just jump in, read the last post (mine) and infer the other 115 posts based on that knowledge?
Since you chose to use the word "everybody," please name two people at whom I directed personal attacks in this thread. Since you are scolding only me, I'm going to have to assume that you missed the place where Hachiro sent a flurry of vitriol my way merely for expressing my opinion. The post you are criticizing is a post in which I was responding to a post of his which contained many insulting comments which were not necessarily directed only at me, but were definitely directed at me nonetheless.

Also note most foreigners in Japan do not speak Japanese, therefore most Japanese will assume you don't speak Japanese, it is a stereotype that is very likely to not be overcome anytime soon, even the politest, western loving Japanese person is going to assume you don't speak Japanese (and then might proceed to practice their English on you).

If waiters want to speak to me in English, that's fine. I'll even ignore the fact that they assumed that I understand English. But that's not what I was talking about.

If you are really so offended by this term it then begs the question...

Please don't use that expression. You're not using it correctly.

If your (JimmySeal) behaviour towards others in this thread is any indication of your behaviour or attitude towards Japanese people (or anybody on earth)...

It's not. I only behave that way towards rude people with hyperinflated egos.

 

[ArmandV]

I only behave that way towards rude people with hyperinflated egos.

Jimmy, it is the tone of your posts that is offending some here (keep in mind I am not taking sides on the main issue). Whether you realize it or not, you do sometimes come off snide and sarcastic.

 

[Hachiro]

The post you are criticizing is a post in which I was responding to a post of his which contained many insulting comments which were not necessarily directed only at me, but were definitely directed at me nonetheless.

You assume too much there Jimmy. Now why in the world would I want to direct a post towards you. Like I wrote in that post and I am quoting myself here;

This is addressed to those that it matters most to....and NO individual in particular.

and

Oh to those reading this and thinking; "What a condescending f**" fine, then in truth this may be directed towards you, and you might be better served by taking a deep breath and stop worrying about or being bothered by something so tiny and insignificant as the word "gaijin". It will save you a hell of a lot of stress and frustration, along with a better acceptance from those Japanese around you as well, who also in reality, don't really appreciate constantly hearing "gaijin" complain about them, their way of speaking and their country. Oh and lastly if it bothers you so much "Why the hell do you stay here?"

By replying as you have I can see that you might be well served by the advice written here.

ArmandV makes a great point that imo would serve you very well.

A wise man once observed, "He who has a thin skin, should not live in Japan."

Now unless someone other than you Jimmy makes a comment on this thread I am done with it. Jimmy feel free to make any comments you'd like, I am sure you want to get in the last word here.

P.S. I see you already have......oh and btw might I point out that you didn't even know what the term "punks on a lark" refered to when I wrote that. To those that "know" it is an semi-accurate term to describe many though not all, JET's that are teaching here in Japan. If the shoe fits....

Oh forgot one thing if you think you were insulted then you most definetly have a very thin skin, because my dear boy if I was going to insult you you'd know it, and that was nothing.

 

[JimmySeal]

Whether you realize it or not, you do sometimes come off snide and sarcastic.

Now that's a statement I can live with. Sometimes I am snide and sarcastic. But I feel that when someone blatantly insults me, it's in my right to retaliate (and here I'm referring to only one person). jieshi is making assumptions about the way I talk based on a single post of mine, which may I remind you was directed at someone who, out of the blue, called me arrogant, trashed my knowledge of Japanese, and hypothesized that I am a punk, merely because I said the following:

Gaikokujin is a fine word for "foreigner." What gets our hackles up is that the average Japanese person seems to use the word "foreigner" about 40 times more often than the average person in any other civilized country. Half the time, they use the word "gaikokujin" when the words man, woman or person would suffice.

 

[gaijinalways]

Jieshi said

In the end it is your choice whether you get upset and emotional about being called a "Gaijin", many people don't seem to care and this is demonstrated by jref (and many other websites) users choice of username e.g. "gaijinalways", "gaijingirl", "gaijingaijin" etc.
If you are really so offended by this term it then begs the question "why are you living in Japan if you feel so discriminated against?" or "What makes Japan so appealing to you in order to overshadow this thing that offends you so much?"[/QUOTE]

True, we can choose how we react, butit would be nice to have some recognition, rather what seems to be more common is a double standard where Japanese often overlook stereotyping and discrimination as a 'shoganai situation' when I would interpret their comments more as I don't want to bother to change my behaviour, even though it is considered unacceptable in most other developed countries (and these same Japanese will complain about this kind of behaviour when encountering it overseas).

I think you are overlooking some other factors, such as career, costs of moving, possible Japanese spouse, etc. There are also factors I like here, but the named thread habit is not one of them.