Goldiegirl
先輩
- 10 Aug 2006
- 1,694
- 69
Are you sure there isn't more than one kind of Jackass? You wouldn't want to offend some by being so simplistic in your labeling. 
Is "Gaijin" a Racist Slur?
- Thread starter Flanker
- Start date
taehyun
先輩
- 17 Jul 2006
- 176
- 4
Hi!
Allow me to go back to the original question...
Yesterday I was trying to say in Japanese that "those men who left single or widowers have been considered outsiders in Japanese village community." where outsider was meant in the context of inside-outside relationship. Then I understood that I can't use gailin in the meaning of someone rejected or not belonging to the "inside".
I tried to translate other two sentences again using gaijin in tha meaning of someone comming from outside and an outsider
1. Mr Tanaka was transferred temporarily from another company to help ours, so he is gaijin
2. Kyoko is considered an outsider ,gaijin within the girls in her class.(unless Kyoko isn't mixed blood or born outside Japan, the usage of gaijin seems )
Some people use this word as rasist, but I think it is their own choise to add rasist meaning to it.It is not the problem with the word, but with the people, who used it, me thinks.
Allow me to go back to the original question...
Yesterday I was trying to say in Japanese that "those men who left single or widowers have been considered outsiders in Japanese village community." where outsider was meant in the context of inside-outside relationship. Then I understood that I can't use gailin in the meaning of someone rejected or not belonging to the "inside".
I tried to translate other two sentences again using gaijin in tha meaning of someone comming from outside and an outsider
1. Mr Tanaka was transferred temporarily from another company to help ours, so he is gaijin
2. Kyoko is considered an outsider ,gaijin within the girls in her class.(unless Kyoko isn't mixed blood or born outside Japan, the usage of gaijin seems
)Some people use this word as rasist, but I think it is their own choise to add rasist meaning to it.It is not the problem with the word, but with the people, who used it, me thinks.
- 28 Jul 2005
- 5,238
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CC1 san. . . my man !! I got a BIG laugh out of that one (see below). It was a perfect example of ambiguity in linguistic formulas !! 
Of course I fully trust your intent and the innocence within. . . it was just one of those sentences that tickle my funnybone. I will paraphrase one possible understanding of the words, to show how it is funny further below:
Note that what I had said is not calling Maciamo that. I was merely pointing out that there are much worse things that Maciamo could be called.
These kind of strange multi-understandable sentences come up from time to time, and I just get a kick out of them !!! hee, hee, hee.... Now Maciamo, I am making no further attempt to communicate anything other than this linguistically twisting here, please do not go and jump to any conclusions.
AGAIN. . . while I see, and generally agree with the way 'opportunities' were expounded on by Maciamo, I tend to feel that he is looking more at the matter of 'scale' rather than the matter of 'fact'. That the far greatest number of us all do have opportunity should be no matter of debate. That the scale of such opportunity can be different, likewise, should be known.
However, when looking at the concept of 'labeling' people, in the sense of 'racial slurring' someone, we are looking at a broader picture; one which shows more equality among humans of different national groups. In this range of discussion, there may well be very little need to go so deeply into details. We are all humansj !!
Of course I fully trust your intent and the innocence within. . . it was just one of those sentences that tickle my funnybone. I will paraphrase one possible understanding of the words, to show how it is funny further below:
Note that what I had said is not calling Maciamo that. I was merely pointing out that there are much worse things that Maciamo could be called.
These kind of strange multi-understandable sentences come up from time to time, and I just get a kick out of them !!! hee, hee, hee.... Now Maciamo, I am making no further attempt to communicate anything other than this linguistically twisting here, please do not go and jump to any conclusions.
AGAIN. . . while I see, and generally agree with the way 'opportunities' were expounded on by Maciamo, I tend to feel that he is looking more at the matter of 'scale' rather than the matter of 'fact'. That the far greatest number of us all do have opportunity should be no matter of debate. That the scale of such opportunity can be different, likewise, should be known.
However, when looking at the concept of 'labeling' people, in the sense of 'racial slurring' someone, we are looking at a broader picture; one which shows more equality among humans of different national groups. In this range of discussion, there may well be very little need to go so deeply into details. We are all humansj !!
- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
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Thanks for raising the issue of 'scale'. I will not normally get offended by a single person's oversimplification of the language (especially someone I don't know). The problem in Japan is that the vast majority of the Japanese use and abuse constantly of the term 'gaijin'. Mars Man, your comment about scale was intended differently, but thanks for raising it as it is exactly the problem I feel about the term 'gaijin'. At first I didn't mind, but the accumulation of being called gaijin, even by people who know me, who know my nationality, or could otherwise call me by other terms not meant to exclude me from their social group, is what bothers me.
We are all humans, but humans are social beings, have feelings and relationships; I feel that the term 'gaijin' used among Japanese is primarily meant to exclude, sometimes in a condescending way, sometimes with admiration, but always to put a social barrier between the Japanese and non Japanese. It is maybe because of this that some Westerners feel that it is difficult to make real friends (beyond all the politeness and duty) and really share your thoughts and feelings with Japanese people (beyond 'tatemae'). I feel it even a little with my own wife, let alone the other Japanese.
- 28 Jul 2005
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Ah, yes !! I can see something there, in the crystal ball. . .
Of course, I understand your application of 'scale'; and your welcome, since that helped bring out some baggage that I had not yet seen.
My experience has been very different from yours, obviously we are two very different personalities, etc..... I could not, with my experience here in Japan--and probably longer than yours--agree with the degree you have stated in the above post. The far greater number of people who I can say know me here, use my name when referring to me. Of course, I let my name be known, and I make every effort to remember theirs. (of course this is nothing special. . . right?)
I have been spoken of in joking scenarios as 'henna gaijin' and that does not bother me at all because I am going along with the joke--it is by no means a racial slur.
That the tendency to distinguish between those who are nationals and those who are not is perhaps stronger than especially America, and a number of European countries (perhaps) is a natural, historically and geographically instilled psyche. Of course, it is for us to try to reach out, become one with the Japanese national, and see it from their point of being to balance whatever misgivings nature has served them. That is an opportunity for us non-Japanese. Then, in turn, we can help them see it from a different perspective--giving them the opportunity to learn and share.
Perhaps, Maciamo, it could be said that the degree to which you had felt unaccepted by the Japanese had been proportionatly equal to that of your disallowing (psychological refusal) yourself to see yourself as unaccepted, thus setting up a mental blockade which effectively caused the end result to be just that--not being seen by the Japanese heart as being in the group due to a manner of social operation which didn't give the Japanese the opportunity to re-evaluate first impressions.
I'm sorry it didn't work out.☝
Of course, I understand your application of 'scale'; and your welcome, since that helped bring out some baggage that I had not yet seen.
My experience has been very different from yours, obviously we are two very different personalities, etc..... I could not, with my experience here in Japan--and probably longer than yours--agree with the degree you have stated in the above post. The far greater number of people who I can say know me here, use my name when referring to me. Of course, I let my name be known, and I make every effort to remember theirs. (of course this is nothing special. . . right?)
I have been spoken of in joking scenarios as 'henna gaijin' and that does not bother me at all because I am going along with the joke--it is by no means a racial slur.
That the tendency to distinguish between those who are nationals and those who are not is perhaps stronger than especially America, and a number of European countries (perhaps) is a natural, historically and geographically instilled psyche. Of course, it is for us to try to reach out, become one with the Japanese national, and see it from their point of being to balance whatever misgivings nature has served them. That is an opportunity for us non-Japanese. Then, in turn, we can help them see it from a different perspective--giving them the opportunity to learn and share.
Perhaps, Maciamo, it could be said that the degree to which you had felt unaccepted by the Japanese had been proportionatly equal to that of your disallowing (psychological refusal) yourself to see yourself as unaccepted, thus setting up a mental blockade which effectively caused the end result to be just that--not being seen by the Japanese heart as being in the group due to a manner of social operation which didn't give the Japanese the opportunity to re-evaluate first impressions.
I'm sorry it didn't work out.☝
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
- 9,839
- 135
I feel it sometimes with my boyfriend as well. Speaking frankly but with a tone that is very subdued on American terms can to him be scary, "chotto kowai kanji ga shimasu."
In the end, it is their country and culture, though, and I find if I really want acceptance I go along with it to some extent and after some trust is established try testing the rules around the edges. There's no rule-book obviously and it's really hard to give general advice beyond common sense....the more you can act like them the more the differences will become obscured. If that is genuinely how you want to live your life and the acceptance you most want to garner...
gaijinalways
puzzled gaijin
- 15 Jan 2006
- 681
- 21
But as Marsman stated, it is more pronounced here, to the point that many non-Japanese are annoyed by it (this nonacceptance that people are different, so different from Japanese). I can't think of any other developed country where this kinds of things happen;
people follow you pointing out you are a foreigner
people who know your name and known you for some time still call youa foreigner
people refuse to sit near you because you are a foreigner
the reason you can not do something, no matter how trival is because you are a foreigner
and on and on
So if you want equality in Japan, just become Japanese (including plastic surgery)
people follow you pointing out you are a foreigner
people who know your name and known you for some time still call youa foreigner
people refuse to sit near you because you are a foreigner
the reason you can not do something, no matter how trival is because you are a foreigner
and on and on
So if you want equality in Japan, just become Japanese (including plastic surgery)
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- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
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If you start excusing discrimination, xenophobia or other negative foreigner related behaviours of the Japanese just on the pretext that it is "their culture", then you could as well excuse the Nazi holocaust saying that it was also part of the culture of the time, or at least was generally accepted (even taciturnly) by the general population. That's just an example. I could have taken the Muslim hatred toward the West, as well as terrorist attacks motivated by them, and excuse them because after all it only because of their faith and culture that they think or behave this way. If so, everything is excusable once enough people condone it in at least one particular country.
gaijinalways
puzzled gaijin
- 15 Jan 2006
- 681
- 21
Maciamo,
My sentiments exactly. That's why I find it annoying when non-Japanese defend its usage (discrimination, xenophobia) because, hey it's Japan.
My sentiments exactly. That's why I find it annoying when non-Japanese defend its usage (discrimination, xenophobia) because, hey it's Japan.
- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
- 385
I was watching the movie "The New World" (story of Jamestown, the first English colony in North America) recently, and a scene made me draw a parallel with Japan. Captain Smith, captured by the Amerindians, and Pocahontas, the king's favourite daughter, fell in love with each others. The king then said to Pocahontas : "he is not one of us". In my mind, my automatic reaction was to imagine that if these Indians had an equivalent word for "gaijin", it would have been the one he would have used in that situation. John Smith was only a "gaijin", and the father disapproved (although he did not forbid) his daughter dating this "outsider to the tribe". In Japan I very much felt that the traditional mindset was still tribal in that sense. When a Japanese say "s/he is a gaijin", they mean "s/he is not one of us", "he is not part of our tribe", "s/he doesn't know our customs and doesn't think like us".
Good comparison indeed.
Exactly,it's the Japanese deeply rooted clannishness culture.
Oh .... You meant Japanese openly accepted this Taiwan-Chinaman world-class baseball player Mr Lee Jin in the 1960's,a love-struck Japanese female fan later married him and their children became part of Japanese population without facing " racial discrimination ".Chinese do know Japanese loved him as one of their own and worshipped him as their " sports idol ",it was reported in major Chinese newspapers in the 1970's.
This is one of exceptions,otherwise NON-Japanese are just " plain gaijins ".
Since you have a knack digging up old news headlines,Japan's sports section for 1960's-1970's is the place to look for his files.I wouldn't know what Japanese name he was known by his fans in Japan or exact Japanese name he adopted to submerge his Chinese background in retirement,as he married a Japanese woman and settled down in Japan as a " honorary " Japanese with children grew up as native Japanese people.
You wouldn't recognize his name if you're under 30,he was a Taiwan-born Chinaman professional baseball player for Japanese teams in the 1960's up to early 1970's.
My oldest brother grew up in Taiwan as a kid in the 1960's,he was a baseball fan of Lee Jin and he brought up the name on several occasions many years ago.
Back to thread topic shall we .... please
You wouldn't recognize his name if you're under 30,he was a Taiwan-born Chinaman professional baseball player for Japanese teams in the 1960's up to early 1970's.
My oldest brother grew up in Taiwan as a kid in the 1960's,he was a baseball fan of Lee Jin and he brought up the name on several occasions many years ago.
Back to thread topic shall we .... please
- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
- 385
I do not see how Japan's religious flexibility (or rather disinterest in religion), or its copying or other country's technologies or systems could be cincompatible with "clannishness". You are comapring religion, sciences, economy and politics on the one side, with society and culture on the other. Clannishness is only about society and culture, about the acceptance of outsiders within the clan/tribe/nation.
gaijinalways
puzzled gaijin
- 15 Jan 2006
- 681
- 21
I concur with Maciamo. Being flexible on religion (by largely ignoring it except for the ceremonies) hardly equates acceptance. If that were the case then anything might be acceptable, except that it's not. So instead, what you end up with is a tribal acting society that generally almost never accepts outsiders.
Japan was ever nippon Empire.
we accepted korean and taiwanese......
funny thing is ...
many japanese consider the taiwanese who were former japanese are compatriots because they have a same mentarity of the japanese.
tribe?
no..........
if you consider youself is a japanese , you would be a japanese.
and society will accept it.
for example , Ramos is a japanese more than the japanese.
we can never say he is a gaijin
we accepted korean and taiwanese......
funny thing is ...
many japanese consider the taiwanese who were former japanese are compatriots because they have a same mentarity of the japanese.
tribe?
no..........
if you consider youself is a japanese , you would be a japanese.
and society will accept it.
for example , Ramos is a japanese more than the japanese.
we can never say he is a gaijin
- 28 Jul 2005
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Maciamo, this is not only too much of a blanket statement, it is leading the thread way off topic; I'm afraid.
No. The word 'gaijin' is not a racist slur though it can be used as a vehicle for that which is of such emotion.
