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In need of some firsthand information about work conditions in Japan

Originally posted by Mashu
Your article is informative but also EXTREMELY bias. I actually find it somewhat offence towards the American education system.

Here is something you should read about the American school system.



About the working...

Wow, You guys really went in deep.

Me, I have only worked two times in Japan.

Once was at a kindergarten(I also taught private English lessons), and the other time was at an English conversation school.

I don't think the jobs in Japan are different than anywhere else, except for the fact that the job is taken more seriously because of the mass number of people and how soon you could be "replaced."

So I always tried to arrive up to an hour early and work about half an hour longer than what I was scheduled for.

Other than that... I'm not sure much more that I could add...

Good luck~
 
Originally posted by nihonjintaylor
here is something you should read about the American school system.


Good luck~


I agree. School made me feel more braindead than smart. I only got where I am now cuse I got out and taught my self. The only thing school was good for was lunch and making friends.
 
Originally posted by Mashu
Your article is informative but also EXTREMELY bias. I actually find it somewhat offense towards the American education system.


It's "biased".


You were educated in the U.S.? I rest my case.


Of course I"m biased!!!! Toward something that gave me a better education. Who wouldn't be? Ask any American family in Japan who sends their kids to Japanese primary school.

I did not compare a Japanese school that I ATTENDED to the ENTIRE AMERICAN EDUCATION SYSTEM, or to the school you may have attended.

I compared it to a New York City public school I ATTENDED. Everything I said is FACT--TRUTH. Though it was about 30 years ago and things may be quite different today, THAT was how I saw it and experienced it. This essay was NOT a comparison of CURRENT education systems in both nations, it was my EXPERIENCE!!!! Did you have reading in school?

There were NO music, art, phys. ed., hands-on science, etc. at the NYC school. In the 6th grade they were teaching math that I 'd learned in the 3rd grade in Japan. If you're so offended by that, why don't you go complain to the New York City Bd. of Ed.? Or start false rumors about Japanese schools you've never even come close to attending?

The truth really hurts, doesn't it?
 
Thank you all for your answers .


Well, we're ALL biased, aren't we? Nobody can claim to be 100% objective, there's nothing wrong with subjectivity since we're only in our own mind (sounds like a crappy pseudo-philosophical truth, but it's pure logic, is it). That's why it's interesting to have several accounts to see if they confirm each other on some points. And there's nothing wrong with showing some critical spirit towards the school system of our own country, on the opposite!
 
Originally posted by Iron Chef
Thread merged...

Whenever you do that please try to inform the original poster by e-mail so that individual doesn't go insane trying to figure out what happened to the original post.

LIKE I DID!

Domo
 
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The American education system as a whole is pretty much a joke...if you can't see that then your not really looking...third world contries that have half of what the poorest people in America have and they are still better educated...I wish that I had had the opportunity to study in Japan all through my childhood...I have had 2 foreign exchange students stay w/ me...one Chinese and on Japanese...I was at the same grade level they were at in thier contries. We took several classes together (in math and english), and both of them couldn't believe this was the level we were at...I remember the Chinese exchange student saying to me that she had learned what we were doing in Calculus in 6th grade in China...everyone knows that America has one of the poorest education systems in the world...and just looking at other countries education will prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt! I don't mean to be rude or argumentative in anyway and I hope that I haven't offended you, but that is the cold hard fact no matter how you look at it.

 
George L.,

"third world contries that have half of what the poorest people in America have and they are still better educated..."

I'm with you on that. The average SAT score in the tiny island nation of Barbados in the Caribbean is HIGHER than the average SAT score of high school students in the U.S.
 
This teacher has an anarchist point of view towards education. He uses evidence from the 1800's and early 1900's to support his reasoning. The examples of self-taught, historical figures are remarkable people and geniuses but they occur extremely rare in society. They are exceptions to 99% of the population. And what is this "teacher's" plans when the majority of Americans become of working age but have very little usable skills. How do you expect them to support America's economy? You do know if people are given the choice they will almost always take the easiest path in life, which includes not going to school. His examples are of when most people worked of farms or did some kind of manual labor. Not the present.
 
I said the article is biased, not you. I accept everything in your article is factual. I'm just saying the article is poorly written because you provide no comparable evidence. You're comparing apples to oranges. Your article is comparing the best aspect of Japan's education to some of the worst aspect's in America's. The article would be better if you'd compare the best parts of one education to the best parts of another showing how the first's is better. Then you could do this same thing with the worst parts.

By the way, if Japanese schools are so superior to those in America, then you should know that personal attacks make the worst argument.
 
I wrote a huge reply to this, but I decided not to post it.

Let's just say that coming from a family of fed-up public school teachers, I know how crooked the American public school system can be. Mind you, not all education in this country is of poor quality. It varies from state to state, county to county, community to community. Inner city schools might not have the support that a small town might have, such as a lack of funding because that funding has to go around to a lot of schools. There are many, many, many factors here.

There are two sides to everything, people. Some might say that the U.S. is too relaxed about schooling, but then I've had Japanese people tell me horror stories of how much pressure they had to deal with daily, because of school. I'm thinking Japan spends more tax money on education in comparison to the U.S. too. Anyone have any statistics?

I just think we need to think about the reasons behind something before we go around throwing insults. There are just so many things that come into play when dealing with this kind of topic.
 
"Whenever you do that please try to inform the original poster by e-mail so that individual doesn't go insane trying to figure out what happened to the original post."

Sure thing. And maybe next time you'll just tack on your reply to the existing thread instead of starting your own and splintering the discussion.
 
I can only speak from my immediate situation and experience. I am a board of education employee (ie public servant) so my experiences and environment are quite different versus a private corporation. Please keep that in mind as you read. I also paraphrased in the quotes to cut down on the length. Sorry if it makes things hard to follow. My responses were written in response to the full statements.

Originally posted by Gally
-In Japan, is equality promoted or is it important to succeed better than the others in order to "be someone"?

I think that in any corporate structure you are going to have hierarchy and people who want to climb up it. Your job title does help to identify you, and while in the US you might here a "Good morning, Bob. Good morning, Sally." between a boss and her secretary, you will not hear such an informal exchange in a Japanese workplace (discounting the fact that the boss would probably not be female to begin with). However, I think you will find a drive to be promoted in an corporation, Japanese or otherwise.


I would be pleasantly stunned if a student ever corrected me or challenged my opinions to my face. Expressing my opinion in class, on say the residency tax issue, or child abduction by Japanese nationals, often must be accompanied by the disclaimer "it is important to make up your own mind on the issue, not just listen to me." There is a feeling in education that the only people who get to be creative are the folks who have mastered the art. When you learn by imitation and are graded accordingly, you can't help but become "conformistic." If I spun a big enough tale, I could probably tell them that I ran into Beat Takeshi (a famous comedian) in a bar in Osaka, we painted the town red, and I am going to visit him over spring break. After I got past the initial disbelief, if I really pushed it home, I could use my position to convince them of anything, simply because I carry all the moral authority that comes with a teacher.

I feel it is still very true that the place your diploma came from is as or more important that what you studied when it comes to getting a good job. The pressure is to get into a good school. Once you are there, it is pretty darn hard to flunk out. So pressure to do well on entrance exams is fairly intense. A whole industry has grown to meet this desire, and sure, some kids do commit suicide if they don't get in. I personally have never known anyone to do this, but you hear of it from time to time.

Marks seem to be less important that how you will do on the final test (entrance exams).Grades are less an indicator of potential than a view into how well they paid attention and were able to memorize. Even the kid in one of my classes who sleeps, scores 20% on exams and in general is as thick as a brick will not be held back a year or disciplined because of his/her low grades. I have heard, though not related to him/her directly, that taking such actions against a student would hurt his/her self-esteem. Of course, not much is expected from them, as they can't do well on tests and get into a good school, but neither is he/she being dragged kicking and screaming into special classes to being his/her grades up.


Originally posted by Gally
--Do colleagues get along well, or do they feel they are in competition with one another? Do they strive to be the first one to get a prestigious position in the hierarchy?

Since being a public servant is a bit like being in the military (if you do your time you move up) there is not a lot of pressure to compete with your coworkers. If anything there is competition at a broader level between departments to do a better job than the next office two towns over, but it is far from cut-throat.

Originally posted by Gally
--What about the condition of women? Are they felt to be equal to men? Do they have to work more than men in order to get the same positions? Proportionally to men, do a lot of women occupy leading positions?

Here we get into tricky water culturally and socially. While the standard practice of women leaving their jobs once they get married or have children might seem sexist to western vaules, to the women involved it might not seem that way at all. Being a housewife/mother is a major force in Japanese society and a very respected position. They often control the home, the finances, raise the children, and before a force to be reckoned with. They can set their own schedules to a much greater extent than their husbands and they don't have to put up with all the stuff he goes through at work (drinking to late hours, long, long bouts of "voluntary" overtime etc.) Many women I have spoken to find domestic life to fit them just fine. It is not that they havenツ。ツッt been out in the world, they have made the choice that they want to stay at home.

What needs to be looked at through a more exacting lens however, are the conditions that surround a woman's choice to leave the workforce. If there is active or subconscious pressure on the part of co-workers and employers to edge the woman out of her position or imply she is a bad wife/mother if she doesn't leave, then red flags should be going up all over the place. However, here we get into the gray areas that often confound cross-cultural analysis. This is when it becomes important to talk directly to the women themselves (both the ones who stayed and the ones who left), or rely on studies that have done so, in forming a picture of women in the Japanese workplace. I will go no further than saying that often when trying to apply western standards to the status of women in the workplace, it becomes a much trickier issue than many would like.

There are plenty of stats out there on women vs. men in the workplace out there (numbers of employment and such) and as I don't have them at hand, I won' comment. In my situation, the women / men balance in terms of employees is balanced quite well as well as at the two schools I visit. One elementary school has a female vice principal, and I am told it is not uncommon to have female principals as well. Both of my immediate bosses have also been women, as well as a female section chief (bucho) before the last standard cycle of departmental transfers.


Your statement is true. Business and social life is usually clearly stated or implied by language and other means of social communication. In my experience people are often clearly aware of the hierarchy around them and where they fit. However, I have read that in the larger corporations, there has been a move away form the use of titles and suffixes on peoples' names to encourage a free exchange of ideas.

Originally posted by Gally
--In Japan, what is the most important between work and leisure? Is work one of the most important values of Japan? ... Is it important to have a good job to be respected by other people?

There is still a strong ethic to put in long hours at work. This is even more so that the economy is depressed. As for working for a sense of identity, "teacher" is a status position in Japan that carries with it social responsibilities beyond the classroom. If this sense of identity transfers into other professions I am in no position to say. I would say there is a normal amount job-identity association in my situation.

Originally posted by Gally
--How are unemployment, sick leaves, part-time work and retirement regarded? Are their seen as normal and matter-of-fact, or are unemployed etc people looked down upon because they are "non-productive"?

People often do not take vacation outside of the normal holidays. Doing so would mean canceling classes or closing up city hall, something the public sector cannot easily do. There are slow times and heavy times when no one takes vacation, and I have never known a public school teacher to take a special holiday unless it is for something like a funeral or wedding (weddings are often at night or on the weekend to accommodate this.) Part-time work and retirement are viewed as normal depending on the stage of life someone is in. I have no experience with unemployed people in Japan, but I think others consider the situations that cost that person their job when making a moral judgment on unemployment.

That said, I have heard of trends with recent graduates from college that they also want a higher quality of life in terms of leisure time and family time when the go looking for a job. This apparently surprises the old-timers and recruiters. Things might be changing. There is certainly more talk these days that time outside of work is important too.


Unions are often co-opted into the corporate structure when they are at a nascent stage, thus cutting of any real route for strike. I cannot recall a strike in all my time in Japan. The most vocal unions I know of are ones made up by, and mainly for, foreigners (NOVA's comes to mind, I know they have a website). I do not know of any political associations.


The lower down the ladder you are, the more initial enthusiasm you need to show at work. This means long hours of overtime for which people often won't report. From what I know, the courts have been slow to act in cases when a person or family claims damages against an employer. Also, there is no system of punitive damages in Japan. You can only sue and be awarded an amount in real terms. No multi-million dollar karoshi settlements.
Since I am a contract worker, I do not have to do overtime. In fact they send me home to prevent it. My fiance, on the other hand, is more typical. She will go to work most days around 9 or 10 am and not get back from work until 11pm (early day) or 1 am. The vast majority of this time is overtime, for which she doesn't report on her timecard. No one at her company does. Doing so would be seen as selfish. Even when she gets home she has to get ready for the next day, often not making it to bed until 3am or 4am. If she didn't do overtime, it would reflect poorly on her and her chances for promotion. While she has never spent the night at work, she has gone several weeks working her off-days as well, or doing other things the company has asked her to do. It doesn't help that she is one of only a few employees who can do her type of work (and that she does it so well).

Needless to say, she is quitting in late March. She will have lasted about one year.

Originally posted by Gally
---Are there so many female homemakers in Japan? I imagined there were more women doing careers in companies and such.

All of the married women in my office or that I know have at some point been a housewife. The Japanese corporate structure and environment is not conducive to female executives nor high promotion. The New York Times did a nice article on this. It would be worth your time to check out their online archives. It might cost you a few bucks, but the NYTimes is much more reliable source than this BB www.nytimes.com


"Weren't allowed" is probably wrong. They might meet considerable difficulty. Some of it is structural (it is very hard to find daycare in Japan) and part social. Older moms (who have been moms longer/ have older kids) certainly can go back to work. All of the married women I work with have been stay-at-home moms before, including the vice-principal I mentioned. However, keep in mind I do work in education, a traditional place for women to work, and so the environment might be more accepting that the larger corporate world.
 
Thougth about the e-mail thing, decided not to
 
My two cents:

Education.......has its problems.

I work at 13 schools here in Wakayama, 9 Elementary and 4 Junior Highs. Personally, I'd rather have gone to school here (in Wakayama's countryside) than in Chicago.

FOR EXAMPLE:
All the schools I teach at are small. One of my schools has only 13 students total for all grades 1-6. I've even seen classes with just one student and a teacher! Awesome! I wish I had that. (Of course, this example doesn't apply to any of Japan's urban population.)

That's just me.
(Two pennies drop on a counter.)
 
Thanks, Mandylion, your account is very valuable as well !


Mad pierrot, you work in 13 different schools!? Wow... How are you able to manage that ? You must spend a lot of time going from one school to another, mustn't you?
 
Coffee, and lots of crack

Eh, it ain't so bad.
I'm on a weekly rotational basis. The Board of Education I work for pays a taxi to drive me to all my schools. Which is strange, because some of my school are a half an hour away.....

 
Re: Coffee, and lots of crack

Wow, it must be very interesting to be allowed to meet so many different people. But tell me, I think your testimony as well would be very useful for my piece of work, since you work at so many different places. Have you noticed some similarities in the work conditions and education system of the 13 schools you worked at?
 
Originally posted by Iron Chef
And maybe next time you'll just tack on your reply to the existing thread instead of starting your own and splintering the discussion.

Sure thing.

I thought a discussion about Japanese education/schools and responses thereto might merit a separate topic from a discussion about the work place.
 
Re: My two cents:

Originally posted by mad pierrot
Education.......has its problems.

I work at 13 schools here in Wakayama

When you go into Osaka do you take Nakai trains or JR?
 
I usually take the JR rapid service from Gobo when I go to Osaka. Man, I wish I lived there...

Oh well. Yes, I do notice similarities at all the schools. Basically, I am an employee of my town's Board of Education. They use me in what ever way they see fit. What would you like to know? I am paid well, far better than any normal teacher in Japan would be paid as a first time teacher. Most of what I could tell you would be a little biased, since I am new to the Japanese working world. Golgo_13 where do (or did) you work?
 
When I lived in Japan I was too young to work

All my working years were spent in NYC and now in LA
 
Re: Coffee, and lots of crack

Originally posted by mad pierrot
Eh, it ain't so bad.
I'm on a weekly rotational basis. The Board of Education I work for pays a taxi to drive me to all my schools. Which is strange, because some of my school are a half an hour away.....


Are you of some great importance there?

Because I was thinking of working at a place where I knew I would have to go around to about 6-7 differen't schools... But I can't drive and my wife is pregnant... so I decided not to apply to the place.

I live in the country so it's not really a matter of walking from the train it's getting from place to place...

and the idea of a taxi never hit me...
so how exactly doest it work? they pay all the taxi fee's or just half and the train fee? or...?

could you go into detail?
 

An essay about one's own personal experience requires no evidence. If I ask you to tell me about your vacation in Europe I don't ask for "comparable evidence."

I did not describe the worst aspect of American education. That was the BEST that NYC public school had to offer (in 1973).

I can't think of anything I liked better about that school than the one in Japan, other than that it was very easy for me to get good grades in the U.S. school.

Contrary to popular belief regarding academic pressures in Japan, I was never stressed out as a 6th grade student in Japan. I always had plenty of time to play with my friends, and my friends were no different. I still studied hard to score high on exams, but in the U.S. I barely cracked a book and still did well.

My cousins always had time for school sports teams. They were perfectly happy to go to average-rated colleges. Academic pressure is not widespread as many Americans are led to believe. Cousins on my redneck side of the family knew they weren't going to college, so they went to vocational high schools.

Not all kids in the U.S. aspire to attend Ivy League colleges. But there are some who do, and put themselves under a lot of pressure to try to get in. It's a personal matter, not societal.

Not THAT much different in Japan.
 
Golgo, what is your job? Just curious. NYC and LA are some happening places....

About the taxi: Honestly, I'm not aware of the details other than that I don't have to pay anything. The BOE pays for it all. I have a vague idea that for insurance reasons the don't want me driving, but it's just speculation. Considering I live next to a train station and a bus stop transportation has never been an issue for me.
 
Piero-san,

In my 20s I was a TV talent, actor, comedian, and a romance cover model in NYC.

At the age 30 I suffered from a massive brain tumor and underwent 7 surgeries over a 3 year period. Various facial nerves were damaged on one side of my face so I retired from show business. I began studying Chi Kung to aid in my healing.

I tried teaching math in high school but it was much too stressful and I couldn't make ends meet on the salary.

I answered an ad in "Back Stage", an actors' trade paper for a job as an "evening shift" paralegal at the biggest corporate law firm in NYC (and probably the U.S.). The place was (and still is) so busy they need paralegals in three shifts around the clock.

In 1996 I moved to LA and transferred to the firm's LA office, but a year later left to take a position as a legal proofreader at a different firm, where I remain to this day.

In addition, I have published numerous articles in health & fitness magazines, do some translation work, give Chi Kung healing treatments, and give private lessons in Chi Kung.

Do I like LA or NYC? I can't say. I like both.
 
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