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"I'm so sorry to hear that" のかわりに

J44xm

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Something Elizabeth said in another thread reminded me of another question that I wanted to ask here. I suppose this might be more of a cultural question than a 日本語 one, though.

A few weeks ago, a Japanese acquaintance of mine (an older guy) said that his brother had died. I was totally lost for an appropriate response. ("すみません？ ごめんなさい？ No good, just inappropriate literal translations. さぞ大変なことでしょう？ Argh!")

What is appropriate to say in such a situation?
 
I believe the proper 決まり文句 for when someone passes away is ご愁傷様です （ごしゅうしょうさまです), which is more like "you have my condolences."

I'm not too clear on whether it is appropriate to say this any time, or just at the funeral though. Anyone else?
 
The fixed phrase for expressing condolences is:

（この度は）ご愁傷様でした。

However, if you're talking to your friend in private, I think
大変でしたね or 大変だったね would suffice.
 
Just talked to a friend and they said their immediate response would be あら、本当ですか？ or それは残念ですね。 They even mentioned お気の毒. It seems that the usage of terms has been changing, since younger people these days don't use ご愁傷様 much any more (and if they do use it, it's awkward or unnatural).
 
この度はご愁傷様です。心よりお悔やみ申し上げます。 と言うのが定番だけど、ちょっとフォーマルな響きがありますね。

I used these only yesterday for someone whose cat just died, by the way, so I hope they aren't limited in any way to human losses....
 
ご愁傷様です is unfamiliar to me, though it could be rather common for all I know.

If I were to answer this question without consulting a reference, I would have said that それは残念です。 or お気の毒。 would be suitable expressions.

I received some very bad news last year and was at a loss for what to say. I knew that ごめんなさい wouldn't work, and my bias towards understanding Japanese expressions in terms of English made me think that 残念です (i.e. "that's a shame") wouldn't be serious enough, so all I could produce was "I'm so sorry." in English.
 
本当？本当？本当？本当だ！ああ 、残念ですね。。。


若者言葉であまりにも、実際の言葉、文句とかけ離れて いるのは本当にうんざりですね。。。
優しい日本語が乱れてきているのは残念ですね。
 
Naturally, there are a lot more ways than these. かわいそう
それは酷いですね。。。

Not even touching on the stratospherically polite.

And depending on the relationship....By the way, if there's anything I can do....(or even if anyone really can't, but just to 「関心があるという印象を与える」）

私もできる限りお役に立つ様にしますから。。。
お力になれる事があったら、なんでも遠慮なくおっしゃ って（いって）くださいね。。
お手伝いできることがあったら、何でもおっしゃって（ いって）ください。

Here's a easy to read and cute but informative little site e-geos.net
that helps put it all in more perspective (with your English too if you've started having trouble that way....).
 
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もし普段から会えば話す以上の仲ならば、一言言うべき でしょうね。
でも、お悔やみの気持ちのカードをあげるのもよいかもしれませんね。
 

I second epigene san.

If he is older than you and the relationship between you and him are not so close (i.e. you are expected to talk to him with keigo),
それはご愁傷様でした。(on the spot when he tells you his brother died.)
この度はご愁傷様でした。(if you know the news before seeing him.)

If he is your friend you usually talk without keigo and in casual manner,
それは大変でしたね。 would be good.


Other useful expressions you can add when you're writing to the person who lost someone from his family:
さぞ、お力落としのことと思います。
心からお悔やみ申し上げます。
(both sound very formal, but very commonly used in writing.)
 
I think 大変 occurred to me, but it somehow felt of insulting to me, so I opted not to use it. I guess it was okay after all, though.

At the time, I did say ... something. In retrospect, I might have said 「さぞ大変なことでしょう」 but I don't remember. I was in a mild panic, searching for what in the world to say, so my memory of the moment is a bit blurry. ^_^ But I apparently did not offend, at least. I wish I'd thought to send a card, though. (D'oh!)

(I did not say 「過去はもう過去なんじゃない？元気を出せ！」.)
 
If I had to guess I would say 大変でした。is in the past because the death over and is a singular event, a one time, instantaneous thing. Either that or it sounds more heartfelt than ですね。

でも、「大変ですね」というのも、同情の気持ちを伝え たいとによく使われる表現ですね。
 
Well, well no one can claim this thread has been answered to death or that it is being brought back from the dead exactly.....But rest assured there is a reason. A new wrinkle to complicate life for me today.

Basically, some people I know don't think 大変です is appropriate at all in cases of death, others see nothing wrong with it. The friend I spoke with today explained the usage of 残念です（でした）ね of all common phrases which in her view of bereavement language showed extreme sympathy and depth of grief. While 大変でしたね was more distant and appropriate for a less close friend or acquaintance.

And I thought that it seemed like a very subjective perception so I wanted to share it and would be interested to see what anyone else thinks. Although hopefully, not anything I'll be needing in the foreseeable future.

確かに、お悔やみの言葉は、いろんな広い意味で使えますね。

者をなくしたとか軽い問題から事故にあったという大きな問題ですね。
 
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Thank you for the interesting update, Elizabeth. Very interesting. I'm a low-level player in this 日本語 league, but 大変 just sounds too light and fluffy to me, so I think I'll stick with 残念. For us minor league guys, it's hard to find the right balance in the expression of sympathy. (Saying either "In this sort of dire time of grief, know that you have my sincere sympathy and condolences" or "wow, sucks, huh!" is rather undesirable. The "I'm sorry to hear that" level works for me.)
 
Believe me, I wasn't aware of the half of these delicate nuances until this thread and conversations that have spawned from it since. 大変 after the funeral or in a sympathy note maybe or at the death of a pet but I also resist very much "Oh no, that's too bad, isn't it...." for the death of a person.
 
You hear them together a lot casually as in "Ahh, taihen da. Zennenna koto da (to)..." but I don't know if that phrasing is ever "dressed up" and formalized as words of bereavement or not...
 
Thank you very much, everyone. Between ご愁傷様 and 大変 (and 残念), I think I've managed to reach a point where I can handle such a conversation. ありがとうございました！
 
Good luck ! And out in the real world （たいへん）気の毒です。or some variant is another phrase I've heard a lot of folks today using. As long as you express genuine and heartfelt sympathy, don't use かわいそう、 keigo with a friend、or call the death しんだ・しぼうした the actual words I'm quite sure are not going to be analyzed by anyone in mourning the way they would be on a web site.
 
I my line of work this comes up a lot and when talking about someone that has passed, always use the word "亡くなった" or "亡くなりました" it is much softer on the ears. As for what you say at a funeral , in a very soft voice "ご愁傷様でした" is best. As for any other situation, other here have given good examples.
 
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