How should I study?

GoldCoinLover · 29 Jan 2006

Everyone studies differently. Since obviously right now my japanese really sucks and I know almost nothing, what would you recommend? I study (depends on your definition of study, but I review grammar, listen, and read it) at least 7 hours a day.
Is this good enough? I'm obviously not making much progress, am I? I need a tutor. FrysMarketPlace.com is hiring, as well as some other Sprouts place, and Bestbuy in feburary.
Do you think in a year I'll be able to get to JPLT level 4 or 3? I'd hate to study AND have to go to a job though..ugh. I don't want to work.
Why do I have so much time? I Love japanese, almost obessively, and I dont have a job so, why not? I know I'm not making much progress. :Sigh: AM I too hard on myself?s there such things as a japanese language school?
can I get a degree in japanese language and studies?
I just found some great advice:
"Langauge learning is not a race, it is a lifelong endeavour.
"" ~J.T

Oh, by the way, I made up this sentence (and its correct) by myself, nice gaijin said it was correct. If this isn't progress, then what is?

かれは何を話ましたか？

What did he say?

Hanashimashita (to speak, past tense)
wo is used because describes the action..

hebiichigo · 29 Jan 2006

7 hours each day? Actually to me this sounds like a bit much.. Do you take breaks regularly? Try 30 minutes or an hour if you like, then a break. Get up and go for a little walk (just around your house is fine ), for maybe 15 minutes. Then you can get back to studying.

Do you have a workbook right now? I would recommend, if you're not doing so already, that you sit down at a table or desk or whatever, and write things down by hand. Even if you can't write the kana by hand yet and you have to use romaji. Take a piece of scrap paper and just write down what you can, or anything you remember.
(But it would be a good idea to learn hiragana and katakana by hand soon!)

Sometimes also it helps to say what you are learning out-loud to yourself.

When you're reviewing something you learnt before, pick out the things that you had the most trouble with, write them down and try to focus on those for a little while.

Maybe it would be best to look at only one or two points of grammar each day. That way you're not over-stuffing your brain

I don't think it will be that much of a problem if you get a job. It's good to have a bit of time out from studying, even if you're working

Also, I know how hard it is sometimes, but try to get a good amount of sleep at night. Sleep helps you sort out the information you received during the day.

And yeah, don't be so hard on yourself. You're only just beginning, right? Don't rush your learning. Take it easy

bentenmusume · 29 Jan 2006

I really think the best thing for you would be to take a class.

It's possible to learn Japanese on one's own without formal study, but this generally requires a good amount of focus and self-discipline.

You seem to be having a hard time focusing on one thing at a time. When you jump from one topic to another too quickly, you're not giving yourself enough time for any one concept to sink in. In the end, you just end up confused and frustrated.

Taking a class would at least ensure that you're learning things in a reasonable order and at a reasonable pace. Also, you'd (hopefully) have a patient and experienced teacher who could answer whatever questions you might have.

epigene · 29 Jan 2006

I agree strongly with jt_ (This is what you call "激しく同意")

The most important thing is learning a language or anything else is PATIENCE and DISCIPLINE.

If you don't have them, you should have a teacher who will impose PATIENCE and DISCIPLINE on you. People on this forum can't do that because they can't sit next to you when you're studying.

Most of the people who ask questions about the Japanese language here probably do 80 or 90 percent of the study, taking classes or studying on their own or maybe speaking with native Japanese friends. The questions are posted after doing as much research as they can on the answers and ONLY AFTER THEY CAN'T FIND THE ANSWERS ELSEWHERE.

You shouldn't be starting up new threads for every single question that comes up to your mind. Work on it first. Also, why not concentrate on a single thread for all your questions and thoughts?

Studying on your own without proper information and without taking classes is extremely difficult for everybody. I truly think you need a teacher who understands your needs. You need personal instruction combining listening and speaking with reading and writing.

And, don't expect to be able to translate video games for at least 3 to 5 years (and that's a minimum--only a genius can do that in less time).

I sincerely hope this helps!!

GoldCoinLover · 29 Jan 2006

epigene said:
I agree strongly with jt_ (This is what you call "激しく同意")
The most important thing is learning a language or anything else is PATIENCE and DISCIPLINE.
If you don't have them, you should have a teacher who will impose PATIENCE and DISCIPLINE on you. People on this forum can't do that because they can't sit next to you when you're studying.
Most of the people who ask questions about the Japanese language here probably do 80 or 90 percent of the study, taking classes or studying on their own or maybe speaking with native Japanese friends. The questions are posted after doing as much research as they can on the answers and ONLY AFTER THEY CAN'T FIND THE ANSWERS ELSEWHERE.
You shouldn't be starting up new threads for every single question that comes up to your mind. Work on it first. Also, why not concentrate on a single thread for all your questions and thoughts?
Studying on your own without proper information and without taking classes is extremely difficult for everybody. I truly think you need a teacher who understands your needs. You need personal instruction combining listening and speaking with reading and writing.
And, don't expect to be able to translate video games for at least 3 to 5 years (and that's a minimum--only a genius can do that in less time).
I sincerely hope this helps!! ☝

Yes, thank you for your kindness both J-T and you.

I agree I do need a teacher. Ya'see, I'm a very 'hands on' person. I can't understand things well unless its explained to me, and I can see it. I need to have someone who is native japanese. Fortunately, thanks to the great members on this forum, I have found a college in mesa I can go to as asoon as I get the money for my japanese studios. I really hope to just go there and study japanese for now (and not other things, because I honestly dont think I could study social science AND japanese at the same time! )

I also have pretty tough reading comprehension problem.

Yes, I do have a workbook. However, it is not your normal nuts and bolts grammar textbook; its conversational, and it does explain the grammar behind at as the textbook progresses. It's called "Let's learn japanese." (How would you say this in japanese? The japanese part . Let's learn would be (the verb for learn) + mashou)

Particles give me the trouble more than anything.

Many make sense, but I don't know which situation to use them in.

The problem with the "Let's learn japanese" book is that it was meant to go wtih some radio or audio tape, and its written like this:
"Please listen to Michi-san speak, and listen to the rhythm." its annoying because I dont have the audio tape to go with it (I got it for free). I also have another 1980's textbook which I got for free here, and it is also conversational. It has a grammar section though.

The "Let's learn japanese" one is the only one which has practice problems. This is good. I can do the problems, (and hopefully learn the stroke order of hiragana too, its hard with the "I am yan san" video because the stroke order goes too fast and they move too quickly, so hopefully I can find a website for it..) and find out my weakness and strengths!

Yes, to the person who said above. I have been walking lately. Although, it doesn't help my depression. I think it must be what I'm eating..

I really do spend basically all my time on the computer.

It's probably more like 9 hours. For example, I was studying Japanese from 2:00 PM this morning (when I woke up), and right now it is 12:00 PM (almost 1:00 AM)

Its kinda like an unhealthy obsession.

But the "I am yan san" video is really helpful, I Just wish it had practice problems or something.

Although, you know whats strange? When a white person speaks it, I can understand it fine. But when a native Japanese person speaks it, the accent makes it incredibly difficult to understand. They also seem to speaker faster..

Nicky · 29 Jan 2006

GoldCoinLover said:
AM I too hard on myself?

yup
I agree with hebiichigo. Saying things outloud really helps, especially when you start doing listening practice. Sometimes you won't recongize a word you've learned on paper when you finally hear it spoken to you. BUT when you study outloud, you get a headstart! And you start getting used to hearing japanese earlier.

I agree with epigene about the patience thing. To me, it seems like you're going too fast and jumping in to things that you really should not be bothering with yet. I'm sure if you got a teacher right now he or she would start you off at the very begining because it's just too much work, trying to learn something advanced if you haven't got the basics yet.

GoldCoinLover · 29 Jan 2006

Nicky said:
yup
I agree with hebiichigo. Saying things outloud really helps, especially when you start doing listening practice. Sometimes you won't recongize a word you've learned on paper when you finally hear it spoken to you. BUT when you study outloud, you get a headstart! And you start getting used to hearing japanese earlier.

I agree with epigene about the patience thing. To me, it seems like you're going too fast and jumping in to things that you really should not be bothering with yet. I'm sure if you got a teacher right now he or she would start you off at the very begining because it's just too much work, trying to learn something advanced if you haven't got the basics yet.

Well, I got a japanese grammar book. Here's what it says to explain "ga" which (the terms are very confusing), still it makes it too complicated, I really need a teacher:

Ga - subject marker
Ga marks what the Japanese call the grammaticla subject of a sentence. Think of the subject in the following two ways:
- First, in neutral descriptions of observational actions or situatoins.

Tegami ga kimashita. The mail came.

Ame ga hutte imasu. The rain is falling.

Note that in the negative counterparts of these setencesn, wa, not ga msut be used:
Tegami wa kimasen deshita. The mail didn't come.

-Second, for special emphasis, to distingquish a paticular person or thing from all others..

Watakushi ga shimashita (Im' the one who did it)

Tokyo ga oki desu.
tokyo is big.

When an interrogative pronoun is used as the subject of a sentence , ga must always be used too..

Dare ga, kore o shimashita ka?
Who did this?

Object marker-
Wo usually marks the object. But ga marks the object of certain non-action verbs (Huh?) and certain verbal adjectives and adjectivial nouns (Huh?):

Yoko san wa, eigo ga wakarimasu.

Nihongo ga dekimasu ka.

Hon ga hoshii desu.

Merii san wa, tenisu ga joozu desu.

The last part I paticulary don't understand. ESpecially non action verbs, what the heck? Verbs SHOW actions, how can it have no action?

I hate this book.

Don't buy it.

Its called :
BARRON'S JAPANESE GRAMMAR

Second Edition
Carol and Nobuo Akiyama
An in Depth reference:
Parts of speech - Verb charts - sentence structure - useful phrases - Pronunciation

Printed in two colors for fast, easy reference.

#1 CHOICE IN LANGUAGE GUIDES. (haha, sure it is..Sorry I don't have a BA in English..)

KrazyKat · 29 Jan 2006

When you learn a new language you have to learn a lot of English words inorder to be able to explain and understand grammar.
Almost nobody knows what passive voice or transitive and intransitive mean before they start a language.

non-action verbs = stative verbs. eg wakarimasu, iru
adjectival nouns = na adjectives eg hen
verbal adjectives = suki hoshii etc. (I think)

GoldCoinLover · 29 Jan 2006

KrazyKat said:
When you learn a new language you have to learn a lot of English words inorder to be able to explain and understand grammar.
Almost nobody knows what passive voice or transitive and intransitive mean before they start a language.
non-action verbs = stative verbs. eg wakarimasu, iru
adjectival nouns = na adjectives eg hen
verbal adjectives = suki hoshii etc. (I think)

I know passive and transitiatve.

"A door opened."

"John opened the door."

But I don't understand non action verbs.

And those verbal acjectivies.

godppgo · 30 Jan 2006

Learning a language takes time.

Yes you could spend 7hrs or even more in a day but it's all normal that
you are not going to notice any immediate improvment in your Japanese.
If you can, try to immerse yourself in a Japanese environment.
This could be difficult if you're not living in Japan as I am finding that problem myself.

Japanese will be my 4th language and having been through learning English as a 2nd language, I know all it takes is time and the will to learn.
Keep up the good work!

GoldCoinLover · 30 Jan 2006

godppgo said:
Learning a language takes time.
Yes you could spend 7hrs or even more in a day but it's all normal that
you are not going to notice any immediate improvment in your Japanese.
If you can, try to immerse yourself in a Japanese environment.
This could be difficult if you're not living in Japan as I am finding that problem myself.
Japanese will be my 4th language and having been through learning English as a 2nd language, I know all it takes is time and the will to learn.
Keep up the good work!

WHOAH! English is your second language, good job! And thanks for the compliment! I annoy so many people here, sometimes its not warranted. I appreciate it. This kind of behavior motives me to study more, ask later.
I imagine that if you have a language much different from english, like chinese, it would be harder to learn english. What is your native language?

Ahh, you must be french.

godppgo · 30 Jan 2006

GoldCoinLover said:
Ahh, you must be french.

Nice guess, but no I am a Canadian and my mother tongue is Taiwanese.
I attended elementary and junior high in Taiwan and therefore have no problem with Taiwanese and Mandarin. I then moved to Canada when I was 13 and attended high school and university there. So technically, English is my 3rd language and it has been my primary language of use.

The truth is, I didn't purposely "try" to study English. I guess much of it has to do with the English environment I was immersed into. Imagine everything around you is presented in a new language. People around you speak to you with a new language. TV shows and radio are broadcasted in a new language. Street signs in a new language....etc. I mean hell even a 4 year old could speak better English than me. It felt like my mind was being "conditioned" by an English-speaking environment.

However, learning Japanese is a completely new approach for me. Of all the languages I can master, they were all learned passivly when I was at a young age when I could just absorb without much effort. I guess the key to learning a language is to put it to use. You mentioned you want to take JPLT and I think that's a really good idea and it will be even better if you can find real life situation that requires the use of Japanese. I know this is difficult when not living in Japan but if you have the heart and determination to learn, then it shouldn't be a big problem.

Good luck!

GoldCoinLover · 30 Jan 2006

godppgo said:
Nice guess, but no I am a Canadian and my mother tongue is Taiwanese.
I attended elementary and junior high in Taiwan and therefore have no problem with Taiwanese and Mandarin. I then moved to Canada when I was 13 and attended high school and university there. So technically, English is my 3rd language and it has been my primary language of use.
The truth is, I didn't purposely "try" to study English. I guess much of it has to do with the English environment I was immersed into. Imagine everything around you is presented in a new language. People around you speak to you with a new language. TV shows and radio are broadcasted in a new language. Street signs in a new language....etc. I mean hell even a 4 year old could speak better English than me. It felt like my mind was being "conditioned" by an English-speaking environment.
However, learning Japanese is a completely new approach for me. Of all the languages I can master, they were all learned passivly when I was at a young age when I could just absorb without much effort. I guess the key to learning a language is to put it to use. You mentioned you want to take JPLT and I think that's a really good idea and it will be even better if you can find real life situation that requires the use of Japanese. I know this is difficult when not living in Japan but if you have the heart and determination to learn, then it shouldn't be a big problem.
Good luck!

What a great post.

Thank you.

Yes, ever since I took karate I've always liked japan, and japanese. I learned tro count to 10 in japanese when I was 6.

In Tae Kwon Do, we need to speak to a korean flag in korean at the start of the class...that was tough at first, heck, I still bet I didn't say it right.

I've always loved japan, actually, I LOVE big cities. The more lights, the better. Never been to New York, but been to Vegas, man, I can feel the energy of the neon now

And all the cool gadgets in Ekihabra, man, oh man, I'd do anything for that special gameboy. I'm a video game freak, I love japanese games. And oh yeah, my dream is to learn japanese to read them. I really think I love japanese more than just the video games, but sometimes I doubt myself.

Right now, I'm out of high school and have been since Oct 31, of 2005. The good news for you is you studied and were in america at a relatively young age; 13. THe younge ryou are I heard the better.

I'm trying to get a job, (My sleep schedule is very bad, due to depression, haven't slept all day today) at BestBuy, but if I can't get one there, then one at Sprouts or Fry's Grocery.

Then, after I get money, I wil buy a car, then after I get a loan (I had at best a 3.4 GPA in high school, normally around 3.2) I will try to get a student loan or scholarship or something, (Dont know the grade requirements, one time I had a 3.8 for awhile though, and got "student of the montH" award for best improved grades. Name in the newspaper and picture, as well as 50 greens, and a free breakfast..)

Then I'll get my BS in some asian studies (I heard you can major in japanese..at least Trey from south park did, I hope so too) or something with language so I understand english grammar better (Normilization of japanese, relative clauses, relative pronouns, etc all confuse me because I don't know the english defintiions very well. Even if I look it up, I don't understand it.)

English has always been very difficult for me. I've been in special ed all my life.Nevertheless, I WILL learn japanese.

Oh yeah, if all else fails, I will get a foreign exchange program through JET or something, or some other way. I heard I can do this. This would be wonderful. I also plan to visist japan soon, I can't wait.

After i Get my BS, I plan to move there for a few years to laern the language, until I'm fluent and I can read it fluently.

moofs · 30 Jan 2006

godppgo said:
Nice guess, but no I am a Canadian and my mother tongue is Taiwanese.
I attended elementary and junior high in Taiwan and therefore have no problem with Taiwanese and Mandarin. I then moved to Canada when I was 13 and attended high school and university there. So technically, English is my 3rd language and it has been my primary language of use.
The truth is, I didn't purposely "try" to study English. I guess much of it has to do with the English environment I was immersed into. Imagine everything around you is presented in a new language. People around you speak to you with a new language. TV shows and radio are broadcasted in a new language. Street signs in a new language....etc. I mean hell even a 4 year old could speak better English than me. It felt like my mind was being "conditioned" by an English-speaking environment.

However, learning Japanese is a completely new approach for me. Of all the languages I can master, they were all learned passivly when I was at a young age when I could just absorb without much effort. I guess the key to learning a language is to put it to use. You mentioned you want to take JPLT and I think that's a really good idea and it will be even better if you can find real life situation that requires the use of Japanese. I know this is difficult when not living in Japan but if you have the heart and determination to learn, then it shouldn't be a big problem.
Good luck!

Hey, my situation is the exact same as yours! Although I moved to Canada at an earlier age (at about 1 and a half years old), so I'm not quite sure which language I learned first... Mandarin or English. I'm pretty sure it's mandarin, but I never did ask my parents what my first words were or when I first learned how to talk. I learned English, Mandarin, and Taiwanese all passively as well; although, I did go back to Taiwan at around grade 2 to attend grade 1 and 2. Even though it's just grade 1 and 2, it sure helped me a lot. I can read almost any Chinese text, but I can't write for crap. At least I can listen and speak Mandarin and Taiwanese well...

Don't you love using Chinese to your advantage when learning Japanese? I learned Japanese as my 4th language in high school as well. Knowing Chinese sure made Japanese a lot easier for me(huge advantage with the kanji and its yomikata). Now I'm just waiting for a chance to live in Japan for a while so I can truly immerse myself in Japanese and have a chance at using the language itself. That's the next step for me, or if the chance doesn't arise till later, I'll be taking advance university Japanese courses first. Hmm, maybe that might be better.

Whereabouts in Canada do you live, if you don't mind me asking?

Elizabeth · 30 Jan 2006

GoldCoinLover said:
Everyone studies differently. Since obviously right now my japanese really sucks and I know almost nothing, what would you recommend? I study (depends on your definition of study, but I review grammar, listen, and read it) at least 7 hours a day.
Is this good enough? I'm obviously not making much progress, am I? I need a tutor. FrysMarketPlace.com is hiring, as well as some other Sprouts place, and Bestbuy in feburary.
Do you think in a year I'll be able to get to JPLT level 4 or 3? I'd hate to study AND have to go to a job though..ugh. I don't want to work.
Why do I have so much time? I Love japanese, almost obsessively, and I don't have a job so, why not? I know I'm not making much progress. :Sigh: AM I too hard on myself?s there such things as a japanese language school?
can I get a degree in japanese language and studies?
I just found some great advice:
"Langauge learning is not a race, it is a lifelong endeavour.
"" ~J.T
Oh, by the way, I made up this sentence (and its correct) by myself, nice gaijin said it was correct. If this isn't progress, then what is?
かれは何を話ましたか？
What did he say?

Although I would advice you (besides working towards a real job, considering seriously how Japanese is going to fit in your future, improving your emotional life....and all those nicities of life) to find someone who has studied a little longer if you are going to use us as online tutors. This is closer to what did he speak or talk, not what did say.

何を話している？ (What are you talking about ?) is still unstandard and largely "youth speak" but at least it is a lot more heard than the past tense version.

Nicky · 30 Jan 2006

GoldCoinLover said:
Then I'll get my BS in some asian studies
After i Get my BS, I plan to move there for a few years to laern the language, until I'm fluent and I can read it fluently.

I plan to do something similar, although my BS will hopefully be in linguistics or business. I haven't decided yet.

godppgo · 31 Jan 2006

moofs said:
Whereabouts in Canada do you live, if you don't mind me asking?

I lived in Vancouver and I am doing my masters in the states right now.
I still call Canada home tho, didin't realize there's such a big difference between US and Canada.

I was just wondering since we already know most of the Kanji, wouldn't it be better if we study Japanese using the Chinese approach? I mean here in North America, most unversity Japanese courses use romaji in their text.

So my question is: Will using Chinese to learn Japanese be more effective than using English to learn Japanese? Anyone on this forum can help me with this question?

MeAndroo · 31 Jan 2006

godppgo said:
I lived in Vancouver and I am doing my masters in the states right now.
I still call Canada home tho, didin't realize there's such a big difference between US and Canada.
I was just wondering since we already know most of the Kanji, wouldn't it be better if we study Japanese using the Chinese approach? I mean here in North America, most unversity Japanese courses use romaji in their text.
So my question is: Will using Chinese to learn Japanese be more effective than using English to learn Japanese? Anyone on this forum can help me with this question?

The kanji will certainly be easier to recognize, and you'll be familiar with writing techniques, but it can be a bit more troublesome as well. Kanji doesn't necessarily mean the same thing in both languages, and the pronunciations are different.

I think the key when studying is to study in the language you're most comfortable with. You'll have a better grasp if/when comparisons are drawn, and complex concepts will be a bit easier.

bentenmusume · 31 Jan 2006

godppgo said:
I was just wondering since we already know most of the Kanji, wouldn't it be better if we study Japanese using the Chinese approach? I mean here in North America, most unversity Japanese courses use romaji in their text.

Is this really true? At the university I did my MA at, they used the Eleanor Jorden (Japanese: The Spoken Language) method, so there was romaji in the texts, but I was under the impression that schools that teach with this method now are in the minority. Most newer textbooks focus on reading kana/kanji almost from the start and try to get away from romaji. (I won't get into my opinion as to which method is better.)

godppgo said:
So my question is: Will using Chinese to learn Japanese be more effective than using English to learn Japanese? Anyone on this forum can help me with this question?

I think that, in the end, it won't really make a difference what method you use in class. Even in classes that make use of romaji, everyone eventually learns how to read Japanese, and your knowledge of kanji is going to give you an advantage once you get to this point.

The only thing you have to watch out for is becoming overreliant on all of this. I had two Chinese classmates back in my college Japanese class. One was one of the best students in the class. The other thought she didn't need to bother learning Japanese grammar or readings for compounds, because, hey, she already knew kanji, and isn't that enough? -- her reading comprehension was terrible, she fell hopelessly behind, and ended up dropping the class.

godppgo · 31 Jan 2006

jt_ said:
The only thing you have to watch out for is becoming overreliant on all of this. I had two Chinese classmates back in my college Japanese class. One was one of the best students in the class. The other thought she didn't need to bother learning Japanese grammar or readings for compounds, because, hey, she already knew kanji, and isn't that enough? -- her reading comprehension was terrible, she fell hopelessly behind, and ended up dropping the class.

Yeah I've heard of similar stories students with Chinese background figured learning Japanese will be a piece of cake and hence put very little effort. Most of them didn't even make it through the elementary level as a result. I guess it if you are determined enough to learn Japanese, it doesn't matter in what way or what language you learn it!

McCrutch67 · 31 Jan 2006

Yeah I'm not sure what my situation will be later. I've never taken formal classes. I might eventually but I will want to continue until I'm basically fluent. You know, forever. I don't mean this pessimistically. I mean i'll always be learning and want to continue using it.

I mean a big part of my drive is to understand anime in the original language without having to deal with bad translations or things like name endings that never translate quite right.

But I also like language in the same way I like math. It's mostly just learning the rules. Practice is the hardest thing for me to get so I forget things faster than I should. The next big thing I think I want to get is some reading material. Like an actual book instead of manga which I have some of. Any suggestions?

moofs · 31 Jan 2006

godppgo said:
I lived in Vancouver and I am doing my masters in the states right now.
I still call Canada home tho, didin't realize there's such a big difference between US and Canada.
I was just wondering since we already know most of the Kanji, wouldn't it be better if we study Japanese using the Chinese approach? I mean here in North America, most unversity Japanese courses use romaji in their text.
So my question is: Will using Chinese to learn Japanese be more effective than using English to learn Japanese? Anyone on this forum can help me with this question?

Cool, I'm still living in Vancouver. Not old enough to get my masters yet. Still a first year in university, heh.

What is the Chinese approach to learning Japanese? I've always used Chinese to help me understand Japanese easier. For me, personally, it made it a heck of a lot easier than if I hadn't known Chinese. Just the way the kanji is pronounced in Japanese is very similar to Chinese pronunciation(especially Taiwanese pronunciation), so I can easily relate to it and remember the readings easier. Even though the meaning of the kanji might be a bit different from the Chinese meaning, it's still similar enough that you can relate them and remember them easier that way. Like Chinese has a lot of compound kanji, but Japanese(verbs mainly) uses only one of the kanji out of the compound kanji. I just find it easier to relate grammar, idioms, etc. etc. with Chinese so it helps me remember it a lot easier. I can't think of an example off the top of my head right now, so I can't exactly illustrate the relations... =(

GoldCoinLover · 31 Jan 2006

Hey everyone, I appreciate your life background stories, but I don't appreciate you hijacking most of my threads now. It msut just be because I'm not respected as highly as some other members (or any other, for that matter). In fact, according to many people here (including Mikecash, whos japanese is amazing as he says I can never learn japanese and become fluent and will give up) I'm the worst spammer here.

nhk9 · 31 Jan 2006

Having a Chinese background definitely helps. If you know Korean all the better. The grammatical structures are so strikingly similar to a point that you wouldn't believe it.

I think the courses that promote romaji are really bad. It took me a very long while to get those romaji off of my head. It may be a pain in the *** to learn the kanas, but very worth the effort. This is the reason I don't recommend those courses supposedly for "diplomats" by the united states government. Oh well, those diplomats tend to speak weird Japanese anyway (although they may have a good command of conversational Japanese, the pronunciation are often very strange, such as the r-sound)

As for advice, try developing your japanese proficiency to a point where you could use japanese grammar books written in japanese. those books will give you an insight on how japanese learn their own language without any fear of "lost in translation". and also, i am sure that the explanations wouldn't sound as intimidating as its english counterparts.

the jpn people loves reading books, and its always good to take advantage of their knowledge and move on.

bentenmusume · 31 Jan 2006

nhk9 said:
I think the courses that promote romaji are really bad. It took me a very long while to get those romaji off of my head. It may be a pain in the *** to learn the kanas, but very worth the effort. This is the reason I don't recommend those courses supposedly for "diplomats" by the united states government. Oh well, those diplomats tend to speak weird Japanese anyway (although they may have a good command of conversational Japanese, the pronunciation are often very strange, such as the r-sound)

I've never understood why people make this connection between romaji and (bad) pronunciation. I'm not a big fan of romaji in Japanese courses myself, but it has nothing to do with this.

It's not like seeing ﾂ「窶堋ｵﾂ」 instead of "shi" is going to magically result in the student being able to pronounce this sound correctly (or vice versa). The only way you can learn proper Japanese pronunciation is by listening to (and imitating) native speakers, so what difference does it make?

nhk9 said:
As for advice, try developing your japanese proficiency to a point where you could use japanese grammar books written in japanese. those books will give you an insight on how japanese learn their own language without any fear of "lost in translation". and also, i am sure that the explanations wouldn't sound as intimidating as its english counterparts.
the jpn people loves reading books, and its always good to take advantage of their knowledge and move on.

Sorry, but I don't really buy it. Japanese don't learn how to use particles and conjugate verbs by studying grammar books, any more than native English speakers learn to distinguish "a" and "the" the same way.

For anyone learning Japanese as a second language as an adult, it's too late to acquire the language the same way Japanese native speakers do -- that is, by being immersed in the language on a daily basis from one's early years.

Also, anyone who has reached the point where reading explanations of complex grammar in Japanese is actually _less intimidating_ than reading them in his/her native language has probably passed the stage of desperately seeking advice on "how to learn Japanese."

(added: Of course, internalizing Japanese grammar/sentence structure to the point where one can read "real Japanese" is going to be one goal of any serious student, but this doesn't really address the issue of how to get there.)

How should I study?

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ナイスメルヘン！

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