What's new

How does this sentence work?

plantain

後輩
5 Sep 2007
3
0
11
I'm having trouble parsing the sentence below, and was hoping for some help. It's from a book, and the subject is kitchens (guess which book...)

できれば機能的でよく使い込んであるといいと思う。

The part I have trouble with is 機能的でよく使い込んである

Is 機能的で an adverb here? Is 使い込んで one word? If not, does 使い just mean 'use'? And if 使い込んである means something like 'it gets used a lot', then is the よく just redundant?

Basically, I'm just not sure how the sentence fits together.
ありがとう!


edit: sorry, this post was supposed to go in the Grammar & Sentences section! Please feel free to move it...
 
I'm in a rush, but here are two hints:

1. Functional
2. Well-used
 
Thanks for your answer, Mike.

So
機能的 - functional (this much I knew)
よく使い込んである - well used?

In that case is the で in 機能的で a form of ですand not a particle?
What does 込む do when it's attached to another verb? It still seems a little redundant with よく.


By the way, I'm not in any class and this isn't for homework, in case that's how it came across. I'm just trying to learn by reading something a bit too hard for me.
 
Thanks for your answer, Mike.

So
機能的 - functional (this much I knew)
よく使い込んである - well used?

In that case is the で in 機能的で a form of ですand not a particle?
What does 込む do when it's attached to another verb? It still seems a little redundant with よく.


By the way, I'm not in any class and this isn't for homework, in case that's how it came across. I'm just trying to learn by reading something a bit too hard for me.

で here is used as "and" conjunction between adjectives and/or adjective clauses.
Meaning: Functional and well-used.

使い込む is a verb phrase in itself. Although there are other meanings as well, it is used here to mean well-used in the sense that something has been used repeated to slowly cater to one's tastes or preferences, such as a well-honed knife.
Literally, the addition of 込む suggests extending beyond normal limits.
話し込む: get into deep discussion
ねじ込む:squeeze something inside (coercively)

FYI, another definition of 使い込む is "embezzlement" (use beyond limit/law).

HTH! :)
 
I think the toughest part is understanding why ある is used. I know it's used with a verb that is done by someone for some sort of reason, but maybe that's a rather elementary definition.

Plaintain, you'll find a lot of verbs which are "two in one" similar this one. For some reason 込む is often used, but there are many other types too, such as 運び入れる (combining 運ぶ and 入れる) and 書き送る (combing 書く and 送る). You'll notice the first verb is always in the masu form. I also find that it's usually best to treat these verbs as individuals rather than trying to derive some meaning from the combination.
 
I think the toughest part is understanding why ある is used. I know it's used with a verb that is done by someone for some sort of reason, but maybe that's a rather elementary definition.

Plaintain, you'll find a lot of verbs which are "two in one" similar this one. For some reason 込む is often used, but there are many other types too, such as 運び入れる (combining 運ぶ and 入れる) and 書き送る (combing 書く and 送る). You'll notice the first verb is always in the masu form. I also find that it's usually best to treat these verbs as individuals rather than trying to derive some meaning from the combination.
ある , or rather である , is used as statement of a fact or objective observation. In the example described in the OP, the speaker/writer described what he/she believed is the condition of the object (i.e., functional and well-used) from the third-party perspective.

If this is replaced with でいる , the speaker/writer is stating the same observation but with conscious awareness of the presence of someone had made it well-used.

As for the two-verb combinations such as 使い込む , it may be easier to understand when each verb is defined separately when you are still at the beginner level, but I recommend learning them as fixed sets as you increase your vocabulary, since there are definitions that do not necessarily come out simply by putting the basic definitions of two verbs together. 😅
 
ある , or rather である , is used as statement of a fact or objective observation. In the example described in the OP, the speaker/writer described what he/she believed is the condition of the object (i.e., functional and well-used) from the third-party perspective.
If this is replaced with でいる , the speaker/writer is stating the same observation but with conscious awareness of the presence of someone had made it well-used.
That's interesting because when て ある follows a transitive verb, it indicates a resulting state that I've always considered more emphatic of human agency than ている。

To take a well-used example but at least simpler example が開いている(ある)、 which in the て いる form becomes ドアが開いている the person or thing who opened the door is not important. What is of interest is simply that the door is presently open. "The door is open."

Switch to a が開けてある ending and while the agent that opened it still may not be known, the difference in verb indicates a shift in emphasis to the acknowledgment that someone has opened the door. "The door has been opened." Or that's been my interpretation until now anyway.

ドアを開けてある(おく) signifies the door has been left open, most likely by the speaker, for a specific future purpose.
 
Last edited:
I was taught the same thing about てある being a mark of intentional intervention, whereas ている just marks the current state.

Although for the example, 開く is an intransitive verb, so would neither work with を or ~ておく, so it would either be ドアが開いてある or ドアを開けておいた, with the second one implying that the speaker (or subject) opened the door.
 
I was taught the same thing about てある being a mark of intentional intervention, whereas ている just marks the current state.

Although for the example, 開く is an intransitive verb, so would neither work with を or ~ておく, so it would either be ドアが開いてある or ドアを開けておいた, with the second one implying that the speaker (or subject) opened the door.
I was wondering when anyone would start to notice my midnight writings. Thanks nicegaijin. 😅 Yes, transitive takes ある、intransitive いる。

ドアが開いている (Door is open)
ドアが開けてある (Door has been opened by someone)
ドアを開けておいた(ドアを開けてある) (Someone has opened the door for future reasons, most likely the speaker)
 
A belated thanks for all your answers! Epigene, your explanation took care of my problem. The notes on ある \ いる are also very helpful.
 
A belated thanks for all your answers! Epigene, your explanation took care of my problem. The notes on ある \ いる are also very helpful.
Honestly ? Personally after reading all the posts I was even more baffled by the discrepency between perceptions of ある・いる。But without any more to go on, and after receiving this reply on the matter from a friend, I feel somewhat more reassured by continuing to consider て、である grammar strongly implying an act of conscious, personal intervention compared with て、でいる。

どちらも同じような意味合いだけど、あえて言うなら「使い込んである」はその「もの」に対しての感想という意味が強いと思います。
 
Back
Top Bottom