How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

Putrefaction · 17 Feb 2010

NYCのように東京での生活は(本当に)忙しいのです -> NYCのように東京での生活は(本当に)忙しいんです

I'm not used to the sentence order yet, but I'm sure if I do more examples I will get used to it. I'm still used to seeing it as 東京での生活はNYCのように(本当に)忙しいんです.

Holy crap, ころ = ごろ？ I'm so used to saying 一時ごろ or 二時ごろ.

with の added when expressing this general timeframe (usually in one's past).

Other uses of koro/goro (with different meanings) may not be followed by の
食べごろ：Just the right time to eat [the food, being perfectly ripe, etc.].
二時ごろ：Around 2 o'clock

THIS MAKES SO MUCH MORE SENSE!!!

Now this makes almost complete sense. But I never have said 一時のごろ／一時のころ。"Around one o'clock" or would 先週のころ be more appropriate? (Around last week)

Thank you so much! 子供のころ／子供ころ？

epigene · 17 Feb 2010

Holy crap, 窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ = 窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫﾂ？ I'm so used to saying ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ or 窶愿ｱﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ.

Ichiji-goro and niji-goro are correct. They are never used with "--koro."
ﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｲ窶堙ｫ is never "tabe-koro."

Koro is used in the context of ﾂ〜窶堙個債?ﾂ、ﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽﾂ債?ﾂ、窶堋ｷ窶堋ｮ窶堙個債? discussed earlier.

Toritoribe · 17 Feb 2010

Putrefaction said:
Holy crap, 窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ = 窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫﾂ？

窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ is used like as a noun.
"noun" + 窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ
ﾅｽq窶ｹﾅｸ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ, ﾂ春窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ

"the adjectival form of a verb/adjective" + 窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ
窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰﾂ習窶堋｢ﾅｽn窶堙溪?堋ｽ窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ, 窶纏窶堋ｵ窶堋｢窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ

Whereas 窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ is used like as a suffix with a temporal word.
窶愿ｱﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ, ﾂ春窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ

When used with the pre-masu form of verbs, its meaning is changed to "the best timing to do something."
ﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｲ窶堙ｫ窶堙姑椎?ﾆ停?愴担: a ripe apple

Putrefaction · 17 Feb 2010

Ah, I sent you both PM's. Sorry.

The sentence of 日本へ行ったばかりのころは。。。 is still weird in my head, I apologize. I will review all of these again Friday or Saturday.

"the adjectival form of a verb/adjective" + ころ
日本語を習い始めたころ, 忙しいころ

I definitely understand this, it's like 先週買った本 in the sense that the underlined is modifying the noun next to it.

食べごろのリンゴ hmm...I think this also makes sense if I can put, 一時ごろのバス。

note

Toritoribe · 17 Feb 2010

Putrefaction said:
Ah, I sent you both PM's. Sorry.

No problem. I'll reply here.

Does this mean that it is used as a possessive? Like, ﾂ静ｦﾂ青ｶ窶堙娯?怒 is the teacher's book? ﾂ春窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ = spring's time?

ﾂ春窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ: around spring
ﾂ静｡窶堙娯?愬停?ｹﾅｾ: snowy Tokyo

ﾂ春/ﾂ静｡ posseses something?:?

So what could 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰﾂ習窶堋｢ﾅｽn窶堙溪?堋ｽ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ be, the same thing as the first one? I honestly thought that the 窶堙 was a nominilizer to make it into a noun, for the previous example to occur.

窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰﾂ習窶堋｢ﾅｽn窶堙溪?堋ｽ is neither a noun nor a noun clause, so it can't be used with "窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ." You can say 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰﾂ習窶堋｢ﾅｽn窶堙?ﾂ習窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堙??堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ or "the noun form + 窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ."

窶ｹN窶堋ｫ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ窶堙固ｽﾅｾﾅ?ﾃ - the best timing to wake up?

Yes. 窶ｹN窶堋ｫ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ can mean so.

Putrefaction said:
ﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｲ窶堙ｫ窶堙啓/U]ﾆ椎?ﾆ停?愴担 hmm...I think this also makes sense if I can put, ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ窶堙姑弛ﾆ湛ﾂ。

Yes, ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ窶堙姑弛ﾆ湛 is correct.
ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ窶堙姑弛ﾆ湛窶堙可湘ｦ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙遺?堙ｧﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堙ｫ窶堋ｻ窶堙ｫ窶堋ｱ窶堋ｿ窶堙ｧ窶堙俄?吮?ｦ窶堋ｭﾂ債?[窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ]窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､ﾂ。

Elizabeth · 17 Feb 2010

Toritoribe said:
Yes. 起きごろ can mean so.

Usually you can say like Okiru no ni ichiban ii jikan (toki, jikoku...)? Because I've never heard 起きごろ.

Toritoribe · 18 Feb 2010

Elizabeth said:
Usually you can say like Okiru no ni ichiban ii jikan (toki, jikoku...)? Because I've never heard 窶ｹN窶堋ｫ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ.

Yeah, it's on the not-common-but-acceptable level.

Putrefaction · 18 Feb 2010

Toritoribe said:
春のころ: around spring
雪の東京: snowy Tokyo

春/雪 posseses something?:?

They don't...er...
Aah, I'm not sure anymore. The only ＿＿のnoun I've come across are things like adjectives, such as 緑のセーター。雪の東京 (setsu or yuki?) as snowy tokyo is not something I know. Could you say 雨の京都, as rainy Kyoto?

日本語を習い始めた is neither a noun nor a noun clause, so it can't be used with "のころ." You can say 日本語を習い始め/習いたてのころ or "the noun form + のころ."

:?I'm still then extremely confused, because the conversation started with 食べたばかりのころ. I'm afraid after all these posts, I still cannot grasp why this works. I can understand 食べたばかりころ, mostly, but not のころ。

I'm going to do a post recap.

ころ is used like as a noun.
"noun" + のころ
子供のころ, 春のころ

Okay, so following this, noun + のころ。
先週のころ - around last week. I completely and deliberately did not make it possessive, even though in my mind I still think of it that way for now, as "last week's time, about".

"the adjectival form of a verb/adjective" + ころ
日本語を習い始めたころ, 忙しいころ

I'll have to read into adjectival form, but I think you mean, the past tense? Like perhaps
本を買ったころ - around the time I bought a book?

Whereas ごろ is used like as a suffix with a temporal word.
二時ごろ, 春ごろ

In the previous example we made it 春のころ，now it is 春ごろ, is there any difference in meanings? Or is it as epigene said, sometimes the の is omitted?

の relates two concepts, "around/about the time" and "just came to Japan," but not as a possessive, by demarking the time as recent. Similar to 日本語を始めてすぐの頃は, 子供の頃は etc.

There is no possibility to act a nominalizer because ばかり is a particle, it isn't following after an adjective or verb.

着く頃[ころ]でしょう。

The reason we don't put つくのころ is because it's not a noun or direct clause, right? But 一時 is a noun...

もっとすみません。I also will have to review ところ and ばかり because for now the only thing I can think of is, ばかり is used to also explain contextually whereas ところ (with a past tense) is just a plain statement? Can you have just the ばかり／ところ at the end of a sentence?

Elizabeth · 18 Feb 2010

Putrefaction said:
In the previous example we made it 春のころ，now it is 春ごろ, is there any difference in meanings? Or is it as epigene said, sometimes the の is omitted?

Start out following the general rule that ころ gets attached to eras or periods of a broader duration (学生のころ、日本にいたころ, 若いころ == の for noun phrases）、with the phonetic change for このごろ、and "ごろ" as a suffix to particular time expressions (いつごろ、何時ごろ、そのごろ、など)。

でも、多分、ほとんどの日本人にとっては、間違っていた「ころ」と聞こえたら、
「ごろ」として、自然に受け止めるのでしょうね。

That's why the absolute best way to learn any language is to surround yourself with it. Listen to Japanese language radio broadcasts, watch news, movies and television. Speak with your friends whenever you can. Once you can begin isolating individual phrases, the natural rhythm and flow to their speech is soooo much easier to recall and recognize than clogging up the brain on nitty-gritty things like artificial grammar points and vocabulary and doing exercises. So Soak up the minimum in vocabulary and absorb grammar rules....but at least in partial immersion for functional proficiency the FUN way ! mwhaha!!!!

Ashikaga · 18 Feb 2010

Elizabeth said:
...with the phonetic change for 窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?堋ｲ窶堙ｫﾂ、and "窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ" as a suffix to particular time expressions (窶堋｢窶堙や?堋ｲ窶堙ｫﾂ、窶ｰﾂｽﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堙娯?堋ｲ窶堙ｫﾂ、窶堙遺?堙?ﾂ。

I don't know why this is but although 窶堋ｱ窶堙啓COLOR="Red"]窶堋ｲ[/COLOR]窶堙ｫ takes the dakuten, 窶堋ｻ窶堙啓COLOR="red"]窶堋ｱ[/COLOR]窶堙ｫ doesn't.

Elizabeth · 18 Feb 2010

Ohhhh, complicated parts. No doubt there would be an asymmetry in one of the items.....so putrefaction, too, don't expect to put everything together on the first shot.

Sono-koro 'those days', Ano-koro 'those days.' Unpredictable, but then "those" is potentially more extended in time than "these." Better than color-coded flash-cards...lol

Toritoribe · 18 Feb 2010

このごろ: in these days/recently
このころ: in this/that time
e.g.
(with watching an 80's TV show)このころは景気良かったよねぇ。このごろは全然だけど。

probably because of the 連濁 things

Toritoribe · 18 Feb 2010

Putrefaction said:
Aah, I'm not sure anymore. The only ﾂ＿ﾂ＿窶堙系oun I've come across are things like adjectives, such as 窶氾寂?堙姑短ﾂーﾆ耽ﾂーﾂ。

That's the same usage to ﾂ静｡窶堙娯?愬停?ｹﾅｾ or "adjectival." Blue doesn't possess sweater, does it?;-)

Putrefaction said:
ﾂ静｡窶堙娯?愬停?ｹﾅｾ (setsu or yuki?)

窶堙､窶堋ｫ窶堙娯?堙??堋､窶堋ｫ窶堙･窶堋､(just like this morning)

Putrefaction said:
Could you say 窶ｰJ窶堙娯?ｹﾅｾ窶徭, as rainy Kyoto?

Yes.

Putrefaction said:
:?I'm still then extremely confused, because the conversation started with ﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ. I'm afraid after all these posts, I still cannot grasp why this works. I can understand ﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ, mostly, but not 窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫﾂ。

窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ also acts like as a noun. That's why 窶堙 is needed.
ﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堙啓/COLOR]窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ窶堙啓/COLOR]ﾋ彙

Putrefaction said:
I'll have to read into adjectival form, but I think you mean, the past tense? Like perhaps
窶怒窶堙ｰ窶敞停?堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ - around the time I bought a book?

Yes, becasue you bought the book in the past.
窶藩??扼窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堙閏b]ﾂ行窶堋ｭ[/b]窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ窶堙懌?堙??堙俄?堙債、窶堙?窶堙≫?堙??堋､窶堙懌?堋ｭﾋ彙窶堋ｹ窶堙ｩ窶堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｨ窶堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。

Putrefaction said:
In the previous example we made it ﾂ春窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫﾂ，now it is ﾂ春窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ, is there any difference in meanings?

Basically, the same. ﾂ春窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ is a kind of literary expression, whereas ﾂ春窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ sounds more colloquially.

Putrefaction said:
The reason we don't put 窶堙や?堋ｭ窶堙啓/U]窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ is because it's not a noun or direct clause, right? But ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ is a noun...

That's why you can also use ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ窶堙啓/COLOR]窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫ(not so common, though).

Putrefaction said:
I also will have to review 窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ and 窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ because for now the only thing I can think of is, 窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ is used to also explain contextually whereas 窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ (with a past tense) is just a plain statement? Can you have just the 窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨﾂ／窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ at the end of a sentence?

The biggest difference is 窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ can be used with the present or progressive tense, as explained in the textbook you quoted. This is a bit advanced but "the present/progressive tense + 窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ" has completely different meaning.

Elizabeth said:
That's why the absolute best way to learn any language is to surround yourself with it. Listen to Japanese language radio broadcasts, watch news, movies and television. Speak with your friends whenever you can. Once you can begin isolating individual phrases, the natural rhythm and flow to their speech is soooo much easier to recall and recognize than clogging up the brain on nitty-gritty things like artificial grammar points and vocabulary and doing exercises. So Soak up the minimum in vocabulary and absorb grammar rules....but at least in partial immersion for functional proficiency the FUN way ! mwhaha!!!!

Great advice!

Elizabeth · 18 Feb 2010

Toritoribe said:
Basically, the same. 春のころ is a kind of literary expression, whereas 春ごろ sounds more colloquially.

That's what I was thinking too. You see 秋のころ so much in 源氏.... 今年の秋ごろ is almost like dating a letter by comparison. lol

このころは景気良かったよねぇ。このごろは全然だけど。

そうだなああああ....たいへん懐かしく思っている。

Elizabeth · 19 Feb 2010

Putrefaction said:
That's the one I am comparing it to. They look almost the same in meaning, B of the 1st and D of the 2nd. But as epigene stated, it's used emphatically, so...would the first one be, perhaps, a rejection to an invitation to a dinner? And the ところ would be maybe a friend asking what you recently did?

Accepting and refusing invitations : (Or say yes hesitatingly, expecting that this reticence will be noticed...)

さっき食べたばっかりなんだ/だけど(よね)).
さっき食べたところなんだから....

I just finished eating a while ago...
I just ate a while ago (you know....).

Putrefaction · 24 Feb 2010

Alright, guys. I really reviewed every post here. ころ・ごろ will not sink into my head whatever I do, so either I am forced to put it as " __'s" as a possessive or I guess, continue to struggle with it...I'll try to struggle, but if I am forced to put it as a possessive to understand it, please understand

Now I'm having difficulty with this sentence.

As usual, I marked it as a nominalizer and of course, it didn't work out. This is really frustrating, this is merely the first page of the first chapter's grammar excersizes. I can't understand anything...

Toritoribe · 24 Feb 2010

Putrefaction said:
As usual, I marked it as a nominalizer and of course, it didn't work out. This is really frustrating, this is merely the first page of the first chapter's grammar excersizes. I can't understand anything...

Actually, that is not the nominalizer but the pronoun, the alternative to "town" in this case.

私が生まれた町は高山という町です。

Doesn't this make sense?;-)

Putrefaction · 24 Feb 2010

I love you guys.

私が買ったのは、「日本語の文法」という本です。

Same thing, right?

Toritoribe · 24 Feb 2010

Putrefaction said:
I love you guys.

ﾅｽ窶樞?堋ｪ窶敞停?堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙債、ﾂ「窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙娯?｢ﾂｶ窶邸ﾂ」窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶怒窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。

Same thing, right?

ﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂﾂ

Putrefaction · 24 Feb 2010

I haven't seen it in this way, though. I'm used to it being at the end of a sentence. How nice!

ありがとうございます。

Elizabeth · 24 Feb 2010

Putrefaction said:
As usual, I marked it as a nominalizer and of course, it didn't work out. This is really frustrating, this is merely the first page of the first chapter's grammar excersizes. I can't understand anything...

AIBI（After Internet Before Internet）....インターネット以前の技術使って, 習ったので、時々、私は少なくとも1,2ヶ月以上, 答えを待たなければなりませんでしたよ。

勉強の挫折に対してがまんだ。

What is there to say ? A prayer to the web. I shouted at books instead of a computer screen quite so maniacally: and then you develop a tolerance for the frustrations of learning.

Putrefaction · 12 Mar 2010

I hear you, Elizabeth... 二つ試験がある、日本語を勉強しませんでした。。。多分試験の後で。 I have to go over the things we discussed, Chapter 22 and Chapter 23.

Genki II, Kanzen Master JLPT3 and 2 級を買いました。

Putrefaction · 13 Mar 2010

I have a question on this. I understand the part before the 窶堙? I also noticed all the books like to use 窶堙 with 窶ｹA窶堙ｩ, is this more preferred than 窶堙? Er, anyways, the no is what I am confused about. Is this another ﾂ坂?? Then the end of the sentence doesn't make sense to me. Airport until send to go (past tense)?

Thanks.

undrentide · 13 Mar 2010

Putrefaction said:
I have a question on this. I understand the part before the の. I also noticed all the books like to use へ with 帰る, is this more preferred than に? Er, anyways, the no is what I am confused about. Is this another 国? Then the end of the sentence doesn't make sense to me. Airport until send to go (past tense)?

Thanks.

～ので : to state the reason (sentence + ので）

～にいく : go to ～
e.g.
図書館に勉強しに行く go to the library to study
散歩に行く、散歩しに行く go for a walk

As a friend of mine is going back to his country
I went to the airport to see him off.

One of the meanings of 送る：
去って行く人と一緒に行く。
(accompany someone who is leaving, often to see off the person.)

(ア)去って行く人に、途中まで、あるいは目的地までついて行く。
e.g.
「駅まで送って行く」「車で家まで送る」
(イ)去って行く人に対し、別れる地点で名残を惜しんだり別れの挨拶したりする。
e.g.
「成田空港で両親を送った」「 A 君を送る会」
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/24717/m0u/送る/

Toritoribe · 13 Mar 2010

Putrefaction said:
I also noticed all the books like to use へ with 帰る, is this more preferred than に?

Yes, へ would be more common, but you can use に, too.

Putrefaction said:
Airport until send to go (past tense)?

まで indicates a destination; not only "temporal"(i.e. "until") but also "spatial."

As undrentide-san explained, 送りに行った is an ambiguous expression. It can be interpreted both as 見送りに行った and 送って行った.

空港まで見送りに行った。
I went to the airport to see him/her off.

空港まで送って行った。
I took him/her to the airport.

The reason "I" went to the airport was "a friend of mine will go back to his/her own country," or s/he hasn't gone back yet at that time. That's why the present form is used here. See below. "I" felt lonely AFTER s/he went back.

友達が国へ帰ったので、寂しくなった。
I felt lonely, because my friend went back to his/her own country.

How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

不幸中の幸い. . . がない.

相変わらず不束者です

松葉解禁

不幸中の幸い. . . がない.

松葉解禁

先輩

松葉解禁

不幸中の幸い. . . がない.

先輩

もちもちした食感

先輩

松葉解禁

松葉解禁

先輩

先輩

不幸中の幸い. . . がない.

松葉解禁

不幸中の幸い. . . がない.

松葉解禁

不幸中の幸い. . . がない.

先輩

不幸中の幸い. . . がない.

不幸中の幸い. . . がない.

Japa'n vagyok

松葉解禁

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