How do modern Japanese feel about Koreans?

Jopok · 26 Jun 2004

This is undeniably a very pleasant forum. However, why are there two or three posts written in a language most of the other members can't understand? Is the writer sending us a message that our opinion doesn't matter? Only people who speak, read or/and write his/her language matter?

Kara-SAN said:
I'm sure you can see the confusion already and the problems that arise.
確かに日本には教科書検定制度がありますが、内容がおかしくなければ問題ない訳でしょう？
で、どこの社の何年生向けの教科書の何年度版の何頁のどの記述内容がおかしかったんでしょうか？是非後学のために教えてくださいよ、学生さん。

それと、韓国にも検定制度と類似の制度があり、あちらでは国史に関しては（選択の余地すらなく）国定教科書を使って教えているようなんですが、やはり一種の政府による検閲制度である以上、その内容は信頼すべきでないと考えざるを得ないのでしょうか？それに、いまどき韓国の教科書なんざ日本でも市販してますし、そもそも（何処の国にせよ）教科書を読んだ程度で歴史が判ったつもりになる、他国民に説教して聞かせる資格があると考えるのも素敵な話ですよね。

と言っても、日本の教科書が偏向していないとか、情報満載だとか、そういう主張はしていませんよ。ただ、偏向の方向や情報過少の理由が貴方の想像とは全然違うんだということを言いたいんです。

大した知識も無い癖にすぐに日本を叩きたがる人達は日本を単細胞生物か何かとイメージしがちですが、これでどうしてけっこう多様性があるんですよ。アメリカとロシア（正確にはソビエトの亡霊ですかね）、中国に台湾に北朝鮮と韓国、そして貴方のイメージするような日本の国粋主義者がエゴをぶつけあって（もちろん、発言力は一定じゃないですよ）教科書を作ったらどうなると思いますか？それが日本の歴史教科書の現実だと思えば大して外れていませんよ。

それから、「古い世代は知っている」ですか。。。
日本で圧倒的に朝鮮/韓国嫌いが多いのは老人世代なんですが、彼らは色々と知っていたんでしょうね。「かつてはこんな差別があったんだよ」「こんな被害を与えたんだよ」という方向の話しか教科書には載っていなかったので（笑）、「爺さんたちはなんて酷い世代だったんだろう。まるで理解できないよ」なあんて考えてる小中学生ばっかりでしたよ、自分たちの頃は。やはり老人の知恵は大切にしないといけませんね。

Excuse me, but why not email or send a private message to Buddha Smoker as an alternative? I'll never post in Korean in this forum except if there was a Korean section because I think it's impolite, pedantic and sneaky for me to post something other people can't read but can see some smilies hitting or laughing off their heads as in a couple of other threads, although this thread only has one smile.

This is a public forum, in the end. No offence. I just want to say when I want to write in Korean, I will do it privately, out of respect of other non-Korean speakers.

Golgo_13 · 26 Jun 2004

So you couldn't read it. Why lose sleep over it?

If the poster didn't want you to read it, it wasn't worth your time and energy reading it anyway.

Do you know any "Corean"?

Jopok · 26 Jun 2004

I personally think using the K instead of the C doesn't make one more or less Corean. Using the 窶廚窶 spelling does not make one pretentious. And it is not anti-Japan. It is simply pro-Corean.

The Corean spelling represents the pre-20th century connotation. A more romantic traditional time with a single unified Corea, before it was occupied, almost erased, and later split in half in the past century.

Primarily English speaking countries use the "Korea" spelling. Many of the Romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian) and countries in Europe use the C spelling exclusively.

Nah, I won't be provoked to fall into any one's sneaking trap by starting to post in Corean. So impolite in an English forum!

Glenn · 26 Jun 2004

Jopok said:
I personally think using the K instead of the C doesn't make one more or less Corean. Using the 窶廚窶 spelling does not make one pretentious. And it is not 窶彗nti-Japan.窶 It is simply pro-Corean.

The Corean spelling represents the pre-20th century connotation. A more romantic traditional time with a single unified Corea, before it was occupied, almost erased, and later split in half in the past century.

Well, my interest is piqued. Are you saying that Korea was spelled Corea before the 20th century, or is there some other linguistic reason for this? Also, I have no idea what the pre-20th century connotation of K/Corea was. Could you give me some information on that as well?

Jopok · 26 Jun 2004

A pre-Occupation and pre-divided Corea!

During Japan's occupation, the Japanese government changed Corean to Korean because they felt that Coreans were inferior to Japanese and K ranked lower (ranked later like i...j...k...l) than J alphabetically speaking.

canadian_kor · 26 Jun 2004

Jopok said:
A pre-Occupation and pre-divided Corea!

During Japan's occupation, the Japanese government changed Corean to Korean because they felt that Coreans were inferior to Japanese and K ranked lower (ranked later like i...j...k...l) than J alphabetically speaking.

Wow, I didn't know that it had to the Romance alphabet ordering thing. I just thought that the Japanese prefered the "K" over the "C." I don't know if the name Koryo (old Korean kingdom) can be spelled with a C (Coryo?). It looks rather linguistically awkward. I prefer the K because the letter seems more stronger than the softer C.

Golgo_13 · 26 Jun 2004

Jopok said:
A pre-Occupation and pre-divided Corea!

During Japan's occupation, the Japanese government changed Corean to Korean because they felt that Coreans were inferior to Japanese and K ranked lower (ranked later like i...j...k...l) than J alphabetically speaking.

I don't think so.

It was forbidden to use English in Japan during WWII--e.g., all baseball terminology had to be translated into Japanese--so I doubt they gave a toot where they ranked in the order of alphabet.

If they really felt they were superior to the Koreans, they would never have bothered with order of the alphabet.

But it's a good effort at fiction writing.

Jopok · 26 Jun 2004

Los Angeles Times

English books and maps published through the 19th century generally spelled the country's name as Corea, as did the British government in laying the cornerstone of its embassy in Seoul in 1890 with the name "Corea."

Chung Yong Wook, a historian at Seoul National University, believes the Japanese - who controlled the peninsula four years before officially colonizing it in 1910 - changed the name by the time of the 1908 Olympics in London so that Japan would come ahead in the ordering of athletes. But the closest thing he has found to a smoking gun is a 1912 memoir by a Japanese colonial official that complained of the Koreans' tendency "to maintain they are an independent country by insisting on using a 'C' to write their country's name."

North and South Korean scholars, who rarely agree on much, also held an unusual joint conference last month in Pyongyang, the North's capital, and resolved to work together for a spelling change. They hope it can be accomplished in time for the 2004 Olympics in Athens, Greece, when the estranged countries intend to field a joint team.

Those opposed (name change) have suggested sarcastically that Korea just pick a new name that begins with an "A" and thus would figure high in the alphabetical ranks. Or, conversely, that a rival country change its name to "Zapan."

However, the South Korean government is unlikely to opt for a spelling change simply because of the burden of changing so many official documents.

Golgo13 writes:

fiction writing

Typical Japan denial syndrome. Comfort women were voluntary workers, Nanjin Massacre was an exergeration or didn't even happen, Japan was forced to attack Pearl Harbor.... Oh, so sick of it! Sayonara.

Golgo_13 · 26 Jun 2004

So why didn't Japan change China's spelling to "Qina" so it would be lower in order than Japan?

As for my statement "fiction" I was referring to your work of art.

Feel better. You've got a bright future ahead of you.

Jopok · 26 Jun 2004

Never gonna let me go?

Are you Japanese? If you are, you're not very updated with your country's current affairs.

The Tokoy governor Shintaro Ishihara freely used the term "Zhina," a derogatory Japanese name for China. How childish of Japanese people like this! Of course, I know not all Japanese are like him. Otherwise, Japan will should its name to Apan or AAAAA.

kara · 26 Jun 2004

A famous but ridiculous accusation from Koreans. Do you feel inferior to Armenia, Brazil, China because of their name? Do you feel superior to Romania, Spain, Thailand because of their name?

It's a matter of power balance among Western countries (especially UK vs France). As you said, latin countries describe your country with "C-" words before Japan's colonization(till today): Coreia(Portuguese), Coree(French), Corea(Spanish) etc. On the other hand, northern Europe countries do with "K-" words: Korea(English, German, Dutch, Sweden etc), Корея(Russian) etc. I don't know Japanese decided the "K"orea notation or not(and you can't prove it at least now), but this "English = de facto standard language" world, that decision was not a one to blame in my opinion. If you feel southern European style is preferable to northern one, why don't you choose it in your parliament or like that?

And about involvement/interference of Japan, you must know 孫基禎, the gold medalist of marathon race in Berlin Olympic(1936). He participated the game as a Japanese and now both Korea claimed to change the record about his nationality againt IOC. Yes, there's no chance for Korea "district" to rank with Japan "empire" of that time. Or, should Japan change the name of every district to "K-","L-","M-","N-"...? totally nonsense.

This post is not "anti-Korean(Corean?)". It is simply pro-Japan. Please don't take my words ill, Jopok-san.

Golgo_13 · 26 Jun 2004

Jopok said:
Never gonna let me go?

As long as you keep posting here, no.

Jopok said:
Are you Japanese? If you are, you're not very updated with your country's current affairs.

Are you Korean? If you are, you should read some of Canadian_Kor's posts above. You might be enlightened.

canadian_kor · 26 Jun 2004

Jopok said:
Never gonna let me go?

Are you Japanese? If you are, you're not very updated with your country's current affairs.

The Tokoy governor Shintaro Ishihara freely used the term "Zhina," a derogatory Japanese name for China. How childish of Japanese people like this! Of course, I know not all Japanese are like him. Otherwise, Japan will should its name to Apan or AAAAA.

As a fellow Korean, I was really embarrassed by Jopok's attitude here. Golgo and Kara, you really have to understand that there a lot of Koreans out there who still live in the anti-Japanese shell. However, people like Jopok are slowly dwindling in numbers. Many Koreans these days do appreciate Japanese culture, food, technology, etc. It's seems that some people out there cannot distinguish between being proud of one's nationality and being against another nationality. Anyways, just shrug your shoulders and let it be.

stupidumboy · 26 Jun 2004

Koreans bad habits

I am a Korean and I personally do not like Koreans' attitude towards Japanese.
Its always Koreans that bring up the sensitive issues first in front of the Japanese who are even quite pro-Korea.

One of my story ,I had a Japanese friend who is quite intereted in Korean culture and oneday this Korean guy asked my Japanese friend such these folowing questions , "what do you think of your country's past invasion of Korea? " "dont you think your country is very evil like? " blah blah blah ! Man ,thats quite rude and impolite manners.

Japanese had no interests to Korea before FIFA WC 2002.Most of them still not very familiar with Korea except some foods while large number of them try to know recently.

I have been to Japan for a pleasant travel and all of the local people showed good hospitality to me. Japanese people are very polite as individually.

I do not want to make them embrassed with making a sensitive topics conversations about history or something uncomfortable issue.,
Koreans do not need to try efforts to let them imformed forcefully.
Its Japanese education that has responsibility to teach their pupils about history or whatever.

I personally think modern Koreans are less open minded and more nationalistic than general Japanese people today.Its obvious because I met large number of Japanese people when I was staying in US.

Many Koreans still cannot distinguish the proper lines between nationalism and individualiam like Japan under militant totalization in 1940's.

Its Korea that still practice duplicated system and industrilization progress from Japan in the past.
They even copied snacks and media contents.

Koreans have no excuse but just inferiority complex only and whine.

Golgo_13 · 26 Jun 2004

canadian_kor said:
As a fellow Korean, I was really embarrassed by Jopok's attitude here. Golgo and Kara, you really have to understand that there a lot of Koreans out there who still live in the anti-Japanese shell. However, people like Jopok are slowly dwindling in numbers. Many Koreans these days do appreciate Japanese culture, food, technology, etc. It's seems that some people out there cannot distinguish between being proud of one's nationality and being against another nationality. Anyways, just shrug your shoulders and let it be.

Thanks bro!

I'll do that!

Years ago in the early 1980s, I worked at a Japanese restaurant in NYC. There were three Korean co-workers who had actually lived through WWII, and one of them even served in the Japanese military! They (two Mr. Kim's and a Mrs. Tei) were already more than 60 years old, and never did they show any bitterness or ask the Japanese employees questions regarding what they thought about the Japanese atrocities in Korea.

canadian_kor · 26 Jun 2004

stupidumboy said:
I am a Korean and I personally do not like Koreans' attitude towards Japanese.
Its always Koreans that bring up the sensitive issues first in front of the Japanese who are even quite pro-Korea.

One of my story ,I had a Japanese friend who is quite intereted in Korean culture and oneday this Korean guy asked my Japanese friend such these folowing questions , "what do you think of your country's past invasion of Korea? " "dont you think your country is very evil like? " blah blah blah ! Man ,thats quite rude and impolite manners.

Japanese had no interests to Korea before FIFA WC 2002.
Most of them still not very familiar with Korea except some foods.
I have been to Japan for a pleasant travel and all of the local people showed good hospitality to me. Japanese people are very polite as individually.

I do not want to make them embrassed with making a sensitive topics conversations about history or something uncomfortable issue.,
Koreans do not need to try efforts to let them imformed forcefully.
Its Japanese education that has responsibility to teach their pupils about history or whatever.

I personally think modern Koreans are less open minded and more nationalistic than general Japanese people today.

Welcome. It's ironic that these "nationalistic" and "less open-minded" Koreans are the one's to readily criticize Japanese people of being nationalistic, racist, and narrow-minded. The tiger accusing the zebra of having stripes is not a productive way to deal with issues like these. I mean, there must be much better questions to ask a Japanese person when you first meet them. It's not only embarrassing, I think it is quite rude and insensitive to ask someone you just met about the past atrocities of their people. To be honest, I'm sometimes ashamed about my fellow Koreans because of certain tendencies in them (like thinking that $$$ is all there is to life).

Golgo_13 said:
Thanks bro!

I'll do that!

Years ago in the early 1980s, I worked at a Japanese restaurant in NYC. There were three Korean co-workers who had actually lived through WWII, and one of them even served in the Japanese military! They (two Mr. Kim's and a Mrs. Tei) were already more than 60 years old, and never did they show any bitterness or ask the Japanese employees questions regarding what they thought about the Japanese atrocities in Korea.

Quite a number of ethnic Koreans served in the Japanese military as petty or logistics officers. However, this is not something that a lot of Koreans like to bring up because it implies traitors in our midsts.

stupidumboy · 26 Jun 2004

canadian_kor said:
Welcome. It's ironic that these "nationalistic" and "less open-minded" Koreans are the one's to readily criticize Japanese people of being nationalistic, racist, and narrow-minded. The tiger accusing the zebra of having stripes is not a productive way to deal with issues like these. I mean, there must be much better questions to ask a Japanese person when you first meet them. It's not only embarrassing, I think it is quite rude and insensitive to ask someone you just met about the past atrocities of their people. To be honest, I'm sometimes ashamed about my fellow Koreans because of certain tendencies in them (like thinking that $$$ is all there is to life).

Quite a number of ethnic Koreans served in the Japanese military as petty or logistics officers. However, this is not something that a lot of Koreans like to bring up because it implies traitors in our midsts.

Based on my experinces meeting Japanese,they lost their nationalism already and tend to act more individually.

If you want to criticize past characters of Japan then it will be fast and more wise to criticize modern Korea .
Korea did not punish the people who served for Japanese reign.
But instead, they became the top class after Japanese removal out of peninsula.
Totalization and nationalism are much more fequently found in Korea.

Korea even copied bad military garrison culture like violence from the senior to junior from old Japan during that period.
Modern Japan has no such things like above.

canadian_kor · 26 Jun 2004

stupidumboy said:
Based on my experinces meeting Japanese,they lost their nationalism already and tend to act more individually.

If you want to criticize past characters of Japan then it will be fast and more wise to criticize modern Korea .
Korea did not punish the people who served for Japanese reign.
But instead, they became the top class after Japanese removal out of peninsula.
Totalization and nationalism are much more fequently found in Korea.

Korea even copied bad military garrison culture like violence from the senior to junior from old Japan during that period.
Modern Japan has no such things like above.

Yeah, one black mark in our country is the lack of political stability. Japan since the post-war period has never had coups or corrupt politicians taking money out of public treasuries.

shiroma · 27 Jun 2004

Jopok said:
During Japan's occupation, the Japanese government changed Corean to Korean because they felt that Coreans were inferior to Japanese and K ranked lower (ranked later like i...j...k...l) than J alphabetically speaking.

Notice the spell in the postage that was issued in 1895 by the independent Korea.

Chung Yong Wook, a historian at Seoul National University, believes the Japanese - who controlled the peninsula four years before officially colonizing it in 1910 - changed the name by the time of the 1908 Olympics in London

Click to expand...

Four years before 1910 is 1906, not 1895.
Now the question: Is it sane to modify the conclusion then to insist that Japan already controlled the peninsula by 1895, fifteen years before the official annexation, including the spells on the postages?
Hint: Treaty of Shimonoseki Article 1

Other stamps

Lina Inverse · 27 Jun 2004

Jopok said:
During Japan's occupation, the Japanese government changed Corean to Korean because they felt that Coreans were inferior to Japanese and K ranked lower (ranked later like i...j...k...l) than J alphabetically speaking.

That's utter nonsense - I would even regard it as anti-Japan propaganda
Don't you think still holding a grudge on the Japanese is rather childish?
The only reason it's spelled with "K" is that the "C" doesn't exist in Japanese.
Besides that, it's spelled exclusively Korea in Germany and many other European countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Russia, Netherlands etc.).
It's just a matter if a language prefers the (pretty much superfluent) 'c' to describe the 'k' sound.

stupidumboy said:
I am a Korean and I personally do not like Koreans' attitude towards Japanese.
Its always Koreans that bring up the sensitive issues first in front of the Japanese who are even quite pro-Korea.
<snip rest>

Well said! That's the point exactly.

Jopok · 27 Jun 2004

And your point is?

A stamp to a certain extent can reflect the cultural - art and social trend of an era
but Elvis Presely and Marilyn Monroe were on the some American stamps too. Did it mean they had been the president and first lady of united states?

Nippon was used in some japanese stamps too. It doesnt mean japanese folks have changed Japan into Nippon in the olympics or any other international organizations such as United Nations.

Therefore, just a stamp with the printing of "korea" on it only proved that "korea" was one of the names/choices koreans would use, even til today, we still have options (as I said in one of the previous post in this thread). It didn't mean Coreans had chosen it as an officail name.

jeisan · 27 Jun 2004

jopok, first off this is an international forum, so many people here speak many different languages, and can post in whatever langauge they like though i dont know how many people would reply since there's a good chance a majority of members wouldnt be able to read it.
kara and stupidumboy are not the same person. i dont know why you think they are. either way i checked their IPs and there was no match. so stop accusing them of things and posting off topic in threads about it. im deleting all your posts that have reference to that in addition to whatever other off topic posts youve made.
you are more than welcome to stay here and continue to post as long as you show repsect for other members, if you are intent on continue down the road you are on im afraid you wont be here much longer.

golgo, check this link
its just an article though, i wish i could find the page that was orignally posted here on the forum. either way i dont know how much the change had to do with japan, languages change on their own...
heres some more on the subject.
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~soon/essays/corea.html
Boston.com / News / World / Asia / Breaking the occupation spell

kirei_na_me · 27 Jun 2004

Thank you, j!

stupidumboy · 27 Jun 2004

Koreans bad habits-every problem in Korea blames Japan.(by the way,not every single koreans think like that,there are actually many Koreans who do not agree with that idea here)

Its really quite matchs with Japanese thought when they made Korea under reign.(or annexed in terms of international law prospects or colonized economically-I personally think both were right)

Japanese saw Korea was hopeless nation so they invaded Korea and then explain the reason such like this "Korea cannot do anything without Japan's guide or help"

So what Koreans say is completely matchs with colonization notion.
How ironic.

About C and K issue-let Vietnam change their representative spell into Bietnam.
That at least makes look them superior than China because B comes previously than C in albetical order.

But Vietnamese wont do that because they are practical and proud of being survived from US trying invasion.

bossel · 27 Jun 2004

Hey, Jeisan, I see you're a Google user, too.

I was stupid enough to do the search & read up on things before I read all the posts. Ah well, again work for nothing.

Or maybe not, I think, this link is worth posting as well:
http://www.medeasin.com/coreaspelling2.htm

Quote:
"Prior to and during the Congress of Vienna (1815), there was quite a controversy over the diplomatic hierarchy as to who should enter the conference room (banquet hall, etc) first among kings, queens, ambassadors, etc, because they were all co-equals as head of a land (large or small) - the so-called sovereignty factor. So, at the end of the Congress, it was agreed that the diplomatic (or international) hierarchy (or precedence - not ranking but the order of seating, so to speak) would follow the initial of each country in order of the French language."

To us it may sound ridiculous, but the times were different. Although there is not much hard evidence that it was Japan which wanted the spelling changed, it might be.

How do modern Japanese feel about Koreans?

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