Help?

Saralynne · 19 Feb 2006

-_- I guess I basically understand the Japanese grammar structure but some things still get to me (tis what happens when there is no teacher).

-How do I put the sentence when there are two verbs? Like "I thought I saw a car." I know how to put "I thought" and "I saw a car" but how do I combine them? o.o

I guess there are other things but I'll post them when they come up.

Gaijinian · 19 Feb 2006

Kuruma wo miru to omoimashita

Luthien Rogue · 19 Feb 2006

Hi Saralynne.

Like "I thought I saw a car."

In this case, you'd say:

車を見たと思いました。（kuruma o mita to omoimashita.)

But you should check this site for info on linking verbs: Linku.

Gaijinian · 19 Feb 2006

Says Ryuujisan:

In double pasts like this, the "quoted" clause is spoken in present tense and the actual tense of the sentence is cemented by the last verb.
正しいと思った I thought I was right... "I'm right, I thought"
正しいと思ってた I had thought I was right... "I'm right, I had thought"
正しかったと思う I think I was right... "I was right, I think"
http://www.animelyrics.com/forum/topic_show.pl?pid=312552;hlm=and;hl=tadashikatta#312552

kumo · 19 Feb 2006

Gaijinian said:
Nope, should be MIRU as far as I know (I asked such a question 1 year ago)
Schooled by a 16 year old... Ouch

Hmmm.. "を見たと思いました" gets 10 times more google hits than "を見ると思いました". Maybe it's because 正しい would always be 正しい regardless of the time (it didn't really "happen" in the past), while 見る is only a temporary action (that actually happened in the past)... Or I could be wrong.

Gaijinian · 19 Feb 2006

Any native Japanese speaker wanna comment?
もしかして、日本語の母語者（の方？）は返事してくれませんか？

Luthien Rogue · 19 Feb 2006

I just asked my language exchange partner:

I thought I would see a car. 車を見ると思いました。
I thought I saw a car. 車を見たと思いました。

Edit: God bless the quoting feature.

Was this comment really necessary?

Schooled by a 16 year old... Ouch

Elizabeth · 19 Feb 2006

kumo said:
Hmmm.. "を見たと思いました" gets 10 times more google hits than "を見ると思いました". Maybe it's because 正しい would always be 正しい regardless of the time (it didn't really "happen" in the past), while 見る is only a temporary action (that actually happened in the past)... Or I could be wrong.

I've mostly seen the double past quotative with と言った where it is necessary to distinguish events that have happened in the past with those that are still ongoing (She said that she lived/lives there etc)。見たと思った makes the most sense to me here as well....

Damicci · 19 Feb 2006

I also have seen information stating root forms are to be used when combined with と思う. Yansan Lessons actually state that method of usage.
But I have never been corrected when stating past tense verbs with と思いました
So probably either works.

Gaijinian · 19 Feb 2006

Luthien Rogue said:
Was this comment really necessary?

No; it was not....
Yeah, sorry, I don't know what I was thinking

Saralynne · 19 Feb 2006

o.o Much debate...

Thanks guys. This helps. wo is a particle, right? What kind (I mean when do you use it... besides this)?

kumo · 19 Feb 2006

Saralynne said:
o.o Much debate...
Thanks guys. Tis helps. wo is a particle, right? What kind (I mean when do you use it... besides this)?

Yes, it's a particle. It's used basically to indicate the direct object of the sentence (so obviously it can only be used with transitive verbs; for intransitive verbs, it's generally "ga").
The basic order is like this:
direct object + wo + transitive verb

Luthien Rogue · 19 Feb 2006

Gaijinian -- it's ok.

I'd like to know which way is correct as well. I've asked two of my Japanese friends and here's what they've said:

みたとおもいました is correct, because, みる is present time verb.
みるとおもいました means 'someone is gonna see something'
車を見ると思った sounds like 'someone is gonna see a car i thought'

I thought I would see a car. 車を見ると思いました。
I thought I saw a car. 車を見たと思いました。

While the purpose here was to show Saralynne how to link the two verbs together, we had a hard time translating it, because, "I thought I saw a car" can mean many things. What do you guys think about 私が見たものが車だと思った instead, to make it clear?

Gaijinian · 19 Feb 2006

Luthien Rogue said:
What do you guys think about 私が見たものが車だと思った instead, to make it clear?

Hmmm... It depends, as you said. Is the original poster unclear about if what they saw was a car, or if they saw a car or not...
~
Hey, what about 見たと思います...?

Elizabeth · 19 Feb 2006

Luthien Rogue said:
Gaijinian -- it's ok.
I'd like to know which way is correct as well. I've asked two of my Japanese friends and here's what they've said:
While the purpose here was to show Saralynne how to link the two verbs together, we had a hard time translating it, because, "I thought I saw a car" can mean many things. What do you guys think about 私が見たものが車だと思った instead, to make it clear?

Well, considering it's a pretty straightforward translation that Japanese people seem to be perfectly able do, but perhaps for "I thought that I saw a car" （私は私が）見たのは車だと思った。is OK as well.

Luthien Rogue · 20 Feb 2006

My friends said that 車を見ると思いました。and 車を見たと思いました。are not something you'd say, they couldn't think of a situation you'd say it in, it was confusing etc.. and suggested that we find another way to say, so that's why I'm asking. That's after asking three Japanese people so..

車を見たと思った, 車を見ると思った No one should say these, I guess, even if it is OK to say "I thought I saw a car" in English. If I were the editor, I would just say, "Just rewrite it." Either one might cause misunderstanding. I would use neither of them.

Elizabeth · 20 Feb 2006

Luthien Rogue said:
My friends said that 車を見ると思いました。and 車を見たと思いました。are not something you'd say, they couldn't think of a situation you'd say it in, it was confusing etc.. and suggested that we find another way to say, so that's why I'm asking. That's after asking three Japanese people so..

And the normal response would be for native speakers to suggest a better alternative instead of throwing it back at a learning forum for further consideration.

Luthien Rogue · 20 Feb 2006

Lol sorry Elizabeth.

I guess the first translation has many possible meanings. They said that if we could give them context then they'd be able to help, but without context, it's difficult...

But in English, I don't see many different possible meanings. So I was trying to say it another way to see if it maintained the meaning intended by the OP.

This is how they took "I thought I saw a car" when I first showed them:

それを車と見間違えた。

And that the other two ways we have it are crrect too, it depends on what you want to say.

So. Thanks for your help everyone.

Elizabeth · 20 Feb 2006

Luthien Rogue said:
Lol sorry Elizabeth.
I guess the first translation has many possible meanings. They said that if we could give them context then they'd be able to help, but without context, it's difficult...
But in English, I don't see many different possible meanings. So I was trying to say it another way to see if it maintained the meaning intended by the OP.
This is how they took "I thought I saw a car" when I first showed them:
それを車と見間違えた。
And that the other two ways we have it are correct too, it depends on what you want to say.
So. Thanks for your help everyone.

なるほどね。
見間違えそうなので「私が見たのは実際に車だったのか」と思っていますが当時、「車のような物」を見てしまいましたんですよ。

Saralynne · 20 Feb 2006

...

Sorry, guys, I'm still a little intimidated by kana and kanji... o.o I can read a few characters, I'll give myself that.

I realize I already knew what wo was, but so often I see it as o that I couldn't tell X_X

But that site you gave me is great! I think it'll help a lot more than what I've been using... o.o I goes now.

Damicci · 20 Feb 2006

Elizabeth said:
And the normal response would be for native speakers to suggest a better alternative instead of throwing it back at a learning forum for further consideration.

My thoughts exactly.

According to my class book.
車を見たと思います I think I saw a car
車を見たと思いました I thought I saw a car
映画を見ると思います I think will see a movie.
映画を見ると思いました I thought I would see a movie.

Luthien Rogue · 20 Feb 2006

My thoughts exactly.

They said that if we could give them context then they'd be able to help, but without context, it's difficult...

This is how they took "I thought I saw a car" when I first showed them:
それを車と見間違えた。
And that the other two ways we have it are correct too, it depends on what you want to say.

They did try. It was very hard to explain to them although the English seems simple and straightforward. And the thing is, the one person is practically fluent, so... What I showed was their attempt but I don't think that is quite what the English version means necessarily. I talked to them for more than an hour about it and they tried very hard to explain.

According to my class book.
車を見たと思います I think I saw a car
車を見たと思いました I thought I saw a car
映画を見ると思います I think will see a movie.
映画を見ると思いました I thought I would see a movie.

Thanks for that.

Elizabeth · 20 Feb 2006

Luthien Rogue said:
They did try. It was very hard to explain to them although the English seems simple and straightforward. And the thing is, the one person is practically fluent, so... What I showed was their attempt but I don't think that is quite what the English version means necessarily. I talked to them for more than an hour about it and they tried very hard to explain.

Anyway, the grammar here is fine since the people I talked with understood the Japanese immediately and could think of situations in which both 車を見た(見る)とおもいます would apply. Isn't a mistaken perception or the constraint of not wanting to appear overly confident (giving testimony at a crime scene for instance...) the same meaning for thought (think) I saw a car it has in English ?

Luthien Rogue · 20 Feb 2006

Isn't a mistaken perception or the constraint of not wanting to appear overly confident (giving testimony at a crime scene for instance...) the same meaning for thought (think) I saw a car it has in English ?

I dunno how this turned into something as complicated as it did. ☝

But, because of what you just said, I guess this is what the problem was:

1. I think I saw a car. (not 100% certain.)
2. I thought I saw a car (but I actually didn't.)

I guess that's where the confusion came from, hence the それを車と見間違えた translation.

Thanks for your help, guys.

Elizabeth · 20 Feb 2006

Luthien Rogue said:
I dunno how this turned into something as complicated as it did.
But, because of what you just said, I guess this is what the problem was:
1. I think I saw a car. (not 100% certain.)
2. I thought I saw a car (but I actually didn't.)
I guess that's where the confusion came from, hence the それを車と見間違えた translation.
Thanks for your help, guys.

Of course much depends on the delivery too, but my reading would be
1. Puts slightly more emphasis on "car" -- raising doubt that perhaps it could have been something else.
2. Slightly more possible that nothing was seen.

Also, remember that "omoimasu" is used much more and more liberally than
often than we use "think" in English even in cases where you are 98%+ sure that's what it was. The car example might not be the best since it's hard to mistake it for a rounded spaceship going 60,000 miles an hour....but I think everyone gets the basic idea.

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