Help with my surname

Laughing Larry · 13 Nov 2009

Hi,

at first I thought some sounds could not be turned into japanese by katakana...obiviously I was mistaken...so I'd like to write my surname by using katakana:

mituzzi into something like ミトゥツィ since there's the double /Z/ should I stretch it (by adding a little -tsu- sign) ?

ミ MI
トゥ TU
ッツィ ZZI

is that ok?

ikkoikki · 13 Nov 2009

My knowledge of Italian (and hence Italian surnames) is limited, but I do think the addition of ﾆ鍛 (creating ﾆ鍛ﾆ団ﾆ達) would be appropriate. But as I said that's based upon my very basic understanding of how one would pronounce your surname.

Laughing Larry · 13 Nov 2009

thank you so much

nice gaijin · 14 Nov 2009

if it's pronounced like I imagine, I think you would go with ミトゥッジ the ィ on the end is unnecessary as it is used for modifying vowel sounds; if you want to elongate the vowel sound at the end of your name, you would use a dash like so: ミトゥッジー

undrentide · 14 Nov 2009

nice gaijin said:
if it's pronounced like I imagine, I think you would go with ミトゥッジ the ィ on the end is unnecessary as it is used for modifying vowel sounds; if you want to elongate the vowel sound at the end of your name, you would use a dash like so: ミトゥッジー

In Italian language, double z is pronounced as ツ. (Like pizza = ピッツァ)
So Mituzzi is ミトゥッツィ.

nice gaijin · 14 Nov 2009

I thought pizza was ピザ？ though that's not really an example of the transliteration of the double-z. I'll defer to your experience, though.

ikkoikki · 14 Nov 2009

In Japanese, yes it's ピザ (pee-za) but the Italian (and English) pronunciation is more akin to pee-tza.

epigene · 14 Nov 2009

nice gaijin said:
In Japanese, yes it's ピザ (pee-za) but the Italian (and English) pronunciation is more akin to pee-tza.

Yes, pizza has long been ピザ when the Japanese had less knowledge of the dish (originally imported via US). It probably is still known widely by this term.

Today, with more and more Japanese having discriminating tastes and understanding for other cultures, a lot of restaurants and connoisseurs have started to adapt the katakana rendition closer to the actual Italian pronunciation.

I think it compares with English speakers adopting the actual pronunciation of imported French words.

undrentide · 15 Nov 2009

Well, pizza may not be the best example (maybe I should mention "mozzarella" instead?!), but the original poster is talking about his name, I do not feel there's any need to change the pronunciation when transcribing it to Japanese...
I'd use whatever is closer (if not the same) thing from the original, but it might be only me...

nice gaijin · 15 Nov 2009

I find it interesting that a ｯｼ is considered closer phonetically than ッヂ, considering the Z sound is voiced, as is ヂ, but シ is an unvoiced fricative.

undrentide · 15 Nov 2009

nice gaijin said:
I find it interesting that a ｯｼ is considered closer phonetically than ッヂ, considering the Z sound is voiced, as is ヂ, but シ is an unvoiced fricative.

Ah, that's the point I mentioned pizza and mozzarella.
In English z is always voiced, but not in Italian.
Often it's pronounced like tz in Tzar, especially when it is doubled (zz).
Like pizza, mozzarella, paparazzi, etc.
(Single z is sometimes pronounced as ts, too, "grazie" for example.)
Thus I think ッツィ - not ッシ, but the way - is much closer to the original sound than ッジ.

nice gaijin · 16 Nov 2009

hmm, saying it aloud to myself, it seems that the zz does indeed become more of a [ts] affricate, as in [pitsa] for pizza. It has also stimulated my appetite

however, the ッシ is just an elongated fricative [ːɕi], without the "stop" present in an affricate; as far as I can see, the closest affricate approximation of the double z would be ッヂ/ッジ, [ʥi], which is almost identical except for being voiced and its placement. I'm not saying that's how it is in common usage, but I'm just interested in the way foreign sounds are adopted and transliterated into Japanese. It seems that certain aspects of a sound take precedence over others when choosing how it should be reproduced with Japanese sounds.

Maybe it's time to send an email to my old phonology professor...

undrentide · 16 Nov 2009

I hope my saying this would not sound rude, but I'm just wondering why you've been comparing ッシ (sshi) and ッジ/ッヂ (zi/dji) when the OP and myself posted only ッツィ (ttsi) as the transcription for Italian "zzi"...

nice gaijin · 16 Nov 2009

My apologies, I misread. I think my eyes are going.

Help with my surname

Laughing Larry

先輩

ikkoikki

先輩

Laughing Larry

先輩

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

ikkoikki

先輩

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

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