Have you encountered discrimination or prejudices in Japan?

Mikawa Ossan said:

I thought it was a rational choice.

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His choice is rational in that he's reduced the risk of a similar misunderstanding, but the downside is he's excluding perfectly acceptable customers and is contributing to the creeping exclusionism in Japan. I'm sure that many places which exclude foreigners do so because of some prior unpleasant or awkward situation. Other establishments may not have had awkward experiences, but may have heard about other places' experiences and with to avoid something similar. It's understandable but not excusable. Just as a barber in another country refusing to serve Japanese because he once had an unpleasant experience with a Japanese customer would be inexcusable, and illegal.

Mikawa Ossan said:

I think life is too short to search out for things that make you unhappy.

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I don't think many foreigners search out situations where they suffer discrimination. Just going about one's daily life does the trick.

Mikawa Ossan said:

I suppose that I should add that I am of the opinion that if you plan to stay for more than a short vacation, I think you should try to learn the local language of any country you go to.

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I don't think many people would disagree with you there.

Mikawa Ossan said:

Perhaps I am wrong, but personally I don't find mild discrimination of non-citizens nearly as problematic as discrimination of citizens. Yes, there are human rights and they are to be observed and respected. But being allowed into a certain drinking establishment/onsen/etc. is not an inalienable human right in my opinion.

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Of course being refused entry to a bar per se is not a human rights violation. But being refused any service on the basis of your race/origins certainly is. And I don't think it's even necessarily a citizenship thing. Most exclusionary establishments may refer to 'foriegners' but they acually seem to mean 'non-Japanese looking' people.

Mikawa Ossan said:

It is not a perfect society or place to live, no place is, but the minor restrictions and inconveniences I have to face to live out my life as I have chosen are very small indeed. Nothing in life comes for free, and I just see it as the price I pay to be a foreign national.

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They may well be minor inconveniences for you, but they foster a culture of discrimination which permeates through many layers of society, causing huge problems in other areas, especially for people who have almost no choice but to live here (eg children of immigrants.)

Hello, again, Taiko666! It's nice to be able to have a rational discussion about such an emotional topic!

Taiko666 said:

His choice is rational in that he's reduced the risk of a similar misunderstanding, but the downside is he's excluding perfectly acceptable customers and is contributing to the creeping exclusionism in Japan.

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I think of that as his loss, not mine. Creeping exclusionism? I think I know what you're referring to, but I just don't see it. Yes, I've seen that immigration in getting more strict about enforcement and whatnot, but that's how it should have been from the beginning, IMO.

It's understandable but not excusable. Just as a barber in another country refusing to serve Japanese because he once had an unpleasant experience with a Japanese customer would be inexcusable, and illegal.

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I seem to remember hearing on NPR talk in certain places in America where public services are not being offered any longer to illegal immigrants (perhaps it was still only in the talking stage. I don't recall perfectly.) Is that not at least similar?

I don't think many foreigners search out situations where they suffer discrimination. Just going about one's daily life does the trick.

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I guess I must just be one of the lucky ones, then.

Of course being refused entry to a bar per se is not a human rights violation. But being refused any service on the basis of your race/origins certainly is. And I don't think it's even necessarily a citizenship thing. Most exclusionary establishments may refer to 'foriegners' but they acually seem to mean 'non-Japanese looking' people.

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At what level does it become a human rights violation? Can store people not decide whom they wish to serve? I understand your point about the rights of the customer, but what about the rights of the storekeeper? Can not the storekeeper take steps to avoid problems in the future?

They may well be minor inconveniences for you, but they foster a culture of discrimination which permeates through many layers of society, causing huge problems in other areas, especially for people who have almost no choice but to live here (eg children of immigrants.)

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I suppose we just have to disagree. Yes, people do often have to pay for the sins of others, but I think in Japan this is where personal responsibility kicks in. I think that as foreigners, and by this I mostly mean non-citizens, the onus is on us and the children who have no choice but to live here to fit in as best as possible. It's a tough world, but it's the world we live in.

I have a hard time getting up in arms about the things being discussed here. You can call this relativism if you like, but bhat does bother me are things like the human slave trade, which is very much alive and well all over the world, including Japan. Maybe it's called something else nowadays, but it is here.

Aside from the fact that this is a discussion board for all things Japanese, I fail to see why pointing out the short comings of Japanese race law and highlighting these isolated cases of discrimination is so important when most of us are unwilling to discuss or care about this stuff as it pertains to immigrants living in our own countries back home. Sure we all "care" but how hard do we fight for it? Certainly not as hard as we appear to be doing so right here. It's as one member stated in another thread; depending on which side of the ocean you're on the glass is half empty or half full.

I've also yet to see anyone respond to the idea that Japan simply isn't one of those countries with a large foreign population necessitating change in attitudes and perceptions. Government serves people. What is the point of having enforced legislation (and by enforced I don't mean the old men with the yellow arm bands scurrying around, encouraging people not to smoke, not to litter, etc., I mean courts setting precedents) if there's barely anyone there to benefit from it? Japan doesn't even explicitly ask for foreign immigration the way the US and Canada do. To borrow from another current thread, many people who go over to Japan do so with false impressions of what to expect and with little or no knowledge of the culture. This exacerbates and probably leads to many of these 'discriminatory' incidents. I don't see these issues stemming solely from the Japanese side of the equation.

The only group I can legitimately see laying claim to this are mixed ethnicity children, half Japanese half something else, born and naturalized in Japan who experience discrimination based on appearance despite being FULL Japanese citizens. Everyone else has their own country to go home to and be accepted in. These kinds of changes take time and progress is being made. For now, the idea of going to another country and immediately expecting it to tailor itself to my needs, especially when uninvited, doesn't jive politically.

bakaKanadajin said:

....
The only group I can legitimately see laying claim to this are mixed ethnicity children, half Japanese half something else, born and naturalized in Japan who experience discrimination based on appearance despite being FULL Japanese citizens. Everyone else has their own country to go home to and be accepted in. These kinds of changes take time and progress is being made. For now, the idea of going to another country and immediately expecting it to tailor itself to my needs, especially when uninvited, doesn't jive politically.....

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Agreed. The only discrimination worth complaining about, to me, is when a person is born and bred in a country, but is still treated like a second class citzen anyway. The kind of discrimination that oppress and attemps to hold a person back from advancing in his or her life.

But discrimination that only makes me feel unwelcome...so what..f*** them if they can't take a joke, I'll gladly spend my money elsewhere!!

bakakanadajin,
If you don't understand or care why people post here on discrimination issues, why do you post in those related threads at all? Leave them alone and don't suffer so much stress. People with valid claims are willing to discuss instead of brushing off their examples and experiences as "isolated incidents".

I've also yet to see anyone respond to the idea that Japan simply isn't one of those countries with a large foreign population necessitating change in attitudes and perceptions. Government serves people. What is the point of having enforced legislation (and by enforced I don't mean the old men with the yellow arm bands scurrying around, encouraging people not to smoke, not to litter, etc., I mean courts setting precedents) if there's barely anyone there to benefit from it?

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Perhaps that's because people like me have not seen you mention this openly enough.

Japan says, by signing the international treaty, that it is all for human rights. It's own population is declining, and unless they have more Japanese babies here, the only way the island is going to fill up with people is if it allows more immigrants. The number has been on the rise, and you may think that 2% foreigners is too small a number to care about, but that number is still significant just because of human rights for all.

I'm not suffering any stress. You seemed pretty stressed out about these issues yourself though. Aside from that I'm voicing my opinion, as you are. We obviously don't see eye to eye. That alright with you?

The only stress I have is when people like you say they don't understand why this is so important. Granted, I don't lose sleep over such statements, but it makes me wonder just what is an important issue to you.

Are you living in Japan?
Do you have any work-related discrimination thrust upon you?
Ignore the problems, but they won't go away if you do.

I am curious about this statement you made, too, bakakanadajin:

many people who go over to Japan do so with false impressions of what to expect and with little or no knowledge of the culture. This exacerbates and probably leads to many of these 'discriminatory' incidents.

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Yes, many newcomers arrive with false images, secondhand or outdated information, etc. No arguments there. But how to you see that as contributing to or leading to discrimination here?
Are foreigners to blame for being foreign?

Glenski said:

The only stress I have is when people like you say they don't understand why this is so important. Granted, I don't lose sleep over such statements, but it makes me wonder just what is an important issue to you.

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When I think about some of the things that are going on in the world I truly can't get as fired up about these issues as some. I just see this as pre-mature drum beating. There is already progress being made and we've been through the examples already. Some people don't see what's already there as being valuable, or else they prefer to focus more on the negatives instead of celebrating the positives. It's really subjective. My experience in Japan was, like others on here, mostly positive. I guess I'm just trying to remain positive. It's not like I don't get what you're saying, I just don't have the same sense of urgency about it.

Are you living in Japan?
Do you have any work-related discrimination thrust upon you?
Ignore the problems, but they won't go away if you do.

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Right now I'm back in Canada. I was in Kanagawa/Tokyo last year, and have visited my famly in Hiroshima a few times throughout my life with stays ranging in length from 2 to 6 weeks. I've also done some site-seeing in Osaka and Kobe. I'm planning on returning, as you know from our discussion on teaching accreditation. Admittedly, this is nowhere near as tenured a stay as some, but I have definitely developed my own sense of how Japan works for foreign workers and visitors, and I just don't share some of the opinions that I've read. I've also several friends here in Toronto who are visiting from Japan and Korea and we hang out on a regular basis. Their dislike for foreigners is non-existent, another reason I can't honestly agree with some of what I've read.

For the issues that have been discussed in this thread, I'm not condoning any ignorance, more like patience.

One more dynamic: I was born in and live in a city with high levels of immigration. I know precisely what bothers and doesn't bother me in terms of how newcomers conduct themselves in my country. Often, my ideas are simply an extension of what I've observed and what I feel I should be doing as a guest in someone else's country.

I am curious about this statement you made, too, bakakanadajin:

Quote:many people who go over to Japan do so with false impressions of what to expect and with little or no knowledge of the culture. This exacerbates and probably leads to many of these 'discriminatory' incidents.

Yes, many newcomers arrive with false images, secondhand or outdated information, etc. No arguments there. But how to you see that as contributing to or leading to discrimination here?
Are foreigners to blame for being foreign?

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No, but if someone arrives in Japan with a false impression of what to expect and they're ill-equipped to deal maturely with some of the realities that exist outside their own borders I don't think that's Japan's fault either.

And I see this as contributing to the whole argument because it's often a source of unnecessary negativity and can lead to this notion that the Japanese somehow have an agenda against foreigners because X or Y didn't happen they way it was expected to. I certainly didn't expect anyone to speak English when I arrived, I had my phrasebook in-hand and was prepared for the worst. (I'm not patting myself on the back for being a good little gaijin, I'm just saying, I wanted to be prepared.)

By contrast, you'd be amazed how many people get over there and expect everyone to speak English and to be ready and waiting to help them settle in. It just doesn't work like that. This attitude contributes to a lot of frustration and misunderstanding down the road too when other issues crop up. There were many situations where something went wrong and I was completely screwed. I lost my wallet in Roppongi, my phone randomly died on me, bank account issues, not being able to access my own money, getting my alien card, mail not arriving, being turned away at clubs without proper ID, getting lost, etc. Each time the resistance I met wasn't racism in my opinion, it was more like 'hey, I can't speak English, what do you want from me a miracle?' And I think some people do expect a miracle because here in the West we're accustomed to banging our fists on counters and getting things done. That's not the Japanese way. Wasn't all roses either, I did meet a few individuals who were clearly not interested in helping gaijin. All I can say is they were soon forgotten because I quickly ran into someone who was willing to help.

I agree with you to the extent thatr racism persists in subtle forms, that's true the world over, but in my eyes its not as bad as some make it out to be. Also, since a lot of people visit this website looking for info., I feel compelled to offer my experiences as a balance. It's not even meant to be inflammatory or argumentative, just an example of my experiences and reasons vs. others.

bakaKanadajin said:

When I think about some of the things that are going on in the world I truly can't get as fired up about these issues as some. I just see this as pre-mature drum beating.

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Premature? To what? What are you/we waiting for that makes this premature?

There is already progress being made and we've been through the examples already.

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And, just how do you think that progress was made? Not by sitting back, accepting the problem and doing nothing about it.

Some people don't see what's already there as being valuable, or else they prefer to focus more on the negatives instead of celebrating the positives.

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There's a difference between focusing on the negative in this discussion group, and focusing only on the negative issues in Japan outside the discussion group. As long as the topic is here in the forum, it only makes sense to focus on it. Ignoring it won't make it go away, whether you are in Japan or Canada.

It's really subjective. My experience in Japan was, like others on here, mostly positive. I guess I'm just trying to remain positive.

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I'm confused about what positivity you are trying to display. Being a "glass is half full" person is one thing, but you don't even seem to feel that the problem exists at all, or to any degree of importance.

I just don't share some of the opinions that I've read. I've also several friends here in Toronto who are visiting from Japan and Korea and we hang out on a regular basis. Their dislike for foreigners is non-existent, another reason I can't honestly agree with some of what I've read.

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If I were really a snippy person, I would throw that last statement back in your face and say, "Oh, that's just an isolated incident." I won't, and all I can say with great reluctance is that we are going to have to agree to disagree, but I'll also ask that you don't keep brushing off the problems here as unimportant to those who still live here.

For the issues that have been discussed in this thread, I'm not condoning any ignorance, more like patience.

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Again with the "wait and see, don't be so premature" attitude. We've waited 12 years for Japan to enact laws to bolster its presumed support of the anti-discrimination treaty. I'm a very patient person, but that's far too long.

if someone arrives in Japan with a false impression of what to expect and they're ill-equipped to deal maturely with some of the realities that exist outside their own borders I don't think that's Japan's fault either.

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It starts somewhere. The foreigner didn't cause the discrimination. That's the root of it all, not his response when encountering it. (However, I do agree, and have stated countless times, that people coming here to work should really prepare a lot more just to avoid as many surprises as possible.)

By contrast, you'd be amazed how many people get over there and expect everyone to speak English and to be ready and waiting to help them settle in. It just doesn't work like that. This attitude contributes to a lot of frustration and misunderstanding down the road too when other issues crop up.

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Yes, as we both have prepared before coming, and seem to have open minds about things here, the unprepared will be frustrated. That still doesn't condone the acts of discrimination themselves.

There were many situations where something went wrong and I was completely screwed. I lost my wallet in Roppongi, my phone randomly died on me, bank account issues, not being able to access my own money, getting my alien card, mail not arriving, being turned away at clubs without proper ID, getting lost, etc. Each time the resistance I met wasn't racism in my opinion,

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Well, of course, with those examples, it is clearly not racism. I don't see why you even bring them up.

I agree with you to the extent thatr racism persists in subtle forms,

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Here it can be subtle or blatant.

Welp it's been stimulating Glenski but its probably best to continue our discussion via PM, if at all. I think our opinions are quite clear to one another and to everyone else by this point, as is the fact that we're not going to see eye to eye the issue of racism and discrimination in Japan. I could debate every word you've typed but I'm not sure doing so would continue to serve a communal purpose re: the topic. It comes down to the fact that our personal experiences, appreciation for and attitude towards Japanese society and people, and our political views are too widely varied and divided to find common ground. I've read everything you've written and considered it before replying, and I'm sure you've taken the same care. I just simply do not agree with you. So as they say, agree to disagree! I look forward to butting heads with you on another topic some day!

No prob. I hope this doesn't put you off asking for job advice in the future, too. Take it easy.

Mikawa Ossan said:

Hello, again, Taiko666! It's nice to be able to have a rational discussion about such an emotional topic!

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Hi! Thanks... it seems quite a lot's been said while I was away (motorcycling in Izu... no exclusionary problems to report...)

Mikawa Ossan said:

Creeping exclusionism? I think I know what you're referring to, but I just don't see it.

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The exclusionism bug can do a lot of creeping before you notice it. That's because there are no laws to prevent it, which is the real problem. You must surely have read or heard about examples like the Brazilian-born Japanese citizen hounded out of buying some land on which to build a house? I could even throw in the story of the Japanese born, Japanese fluent daughter of an American friend who was denied employment by MacDonald's for the sole reason that 'customers would be wary of you because you're foreign'. Examples crop up very regularly. And they'll become more regular as more immigrants arrive, and the children of existing immigrants seek jobs or even
an adequate education.

Mikawa Ossan said:

Can store people not decide whom they wish to serve?

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To a point. Refusing service to a person because they're drunk, abusive or dangerous is fine. But this question is so fundamental. If you believe that's it's ok to refuse to serve somebody based solely on their race, I don't think I or anyone else will persuade you otherwise.

Mikawa Ossan said:

I think that as foreigners, and by this I mostly mean non-citizens, the onus is on us and the children who have no choice but to live here to fit in as best as possible.

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If you're being excluded, it's impossible to fit in. And nobody benefits.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if you and bakaKanadajin condone racism (excluding by race = racism) in your own countries. I'm sure you don't... but then you seem to accept it as an unavoidable and acceptable part of life in Japan, and I don't know why. Saying that Japanese morals and 'western' morals are somehow different is no answer... even the Japanese (say they) don't believe that, since they signed a UN anti-racism treaty. What gives them special dispensation to renege?

I reckon the J-Gov has at least 3 choices:
1) Implement the laws it said it was going to implement, bringing it into line with most of the civilized world, enabling it to move forward and tackle more difficult aspects of immigration.
2) Deport all non-ethnic Japanese and revert to isolationism.
3) Attempt to maintain the status quo, and watch the country slide down the pan.


Ah, that's better. Downs tools and heads to his local non-exclusionary nomiya for a cheeky 純米酒.

Taiko666 said:

If you believe that's it's ok to refuse to serve somebody based solely on their race, I don't think I or anyone else will persuade you otherwise.

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Sadly true, perhaps, but they can sure sue your butt off for your actions!

This is a hot issue to discuss, and I've been involved in it on two other forums in one form or another ("Dave's ESL cafe" and "Young Dudes' Guide to Japan"). This forum is certainly more balanced than the latter, where I had people thinking I should work for Debito (amongst other ones)!

Strangely enough, comparisons with illegal aliens are strange ones as the people we're talking about getting undue attention are not illegally living here and are often married to citizens here. Every society often likes to focus on powerless scapegoats when they can't fight a problem or don't wish to. Why should Japan focus on a small minority of the population when it doesn't seem to be in the government interest to do so? Does tourism and foreign business investment in Japan ring a bell? Of course the latter may not be discouraged as long as they are servicing the domestic market, but they may be more than annoyed when their company seems to be competing under different rules than the Japanese ones. How do you think these cases of overt discrimination are going to make tourists want to visit here?

As to the employment issues, no it is a big difference depending on the country that you're looking at. The US has a large number of tenured foreign lecturers. Japan has very few, and even though the number of Japanese who are tenured is decreasing as well, they still have a much better chance of getting regular permanent employment here than a foreigner does.

I hate tv programs that depict Westerners as stupid, and what I hate more is the Westerners who "act" in these shows with exaggerated facial movements and sounds. I think they make it easier for Japanese to discriminate.

Goldiegirl said:

I hate tv programs that depict Westerners as stupid, and what I hate more is the Westerners who "act" in these shows with exaggerated facial movements and sounds. I think they make it easier for Japanese to discriminate.

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I agree, I've seen a few programs out there where the foreigners are basically just the 'foreign' quota for TV programming or what have you. They aren't really representative of their country, if the country itself is mentioned at all. They're more 'token' figures who are paid to exhibit the same kind of over-the-top personalities as everyone else because their Japanese is really good and they're foreign, but they're just talking heads basically. I think unfortunately, as is the case here back home, most people on TV really ARE that stupid and this just becomes even more apparent on Japanese TV. The same kinds of people who make it onto network TV back home will inevitably make it onto network TV abroad.

I have also seen some programs though where the foreigners involved are fairly real and representative. One show comes to mind where they take a panel of foreigners from various countries and have them engage in popular tourist activities and Japanese activities as well. I found that show to be incredibly well balanced. Generally speaking a lot of the Japanese 'documentay' programs I saw, the ones with the hosts watching in the little window in the corner, aren't so bad. They tend to take a more serious approach to their topics and only touch on non-tabloid type material like earthquakes, health issues, happenings and events in rural towns, the making of seasonal foods and crafts, etc.

The cruddier shows with the idiot gaijin are those variety shows with the games, costumes and challenges etc., which are funny but pretty mindless.

Goldiegirl said:

I hate tv programs that depict Westerners as stupid, and what I hate more is the Westerners who "act" in these shows with exaggerated facial movements and sounds. I think they make it easier for Japanese to discriminate.

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For example?:?:?:?:?

goldiegirl said:

I hate tv programs that depict Westerners as stupid, and what I hate more is the Westerners who "act" in these shows with exaggerated facial movements and sounds. I think they make it easier for Japanese to discriminate.

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bakakandajin said:

The cruddier shows with the idiot gaijin are those variety shows with the games, costumes and challenges etc., which are funny but pretty mindless.

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diceke said:

For example?:?:?:?:?

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One person that comes to mind is Dave Spector, a "famous" 'gaijin tarento'. I believe he is still around. I remember reading in a magazine interview with him in English in Japan where he said that as long as the Japanese were paying him well he would act like a fool if that's what they wanted. His Japanese is pretty fluent also.

It's a sad person and situation who would sell themselves as media ****** for a few pieces of silver and make their own countrymen look like fools. Sadly, it still goes on today and I just shake my head.

Pachipro said:

It's a sad person and situation who would sell themselves as media ****** for a few pieces of silver and make their own countrymen look like fools. Sadly, it still goes on today and I just shake my head.

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I thought that's what talento were supposed to do. Japanese comedians and talento do the craziest things all the time, so why should we get upset when some foreigner does the same thing?

That makes no sense to me.

Doing crazy things is ok; but when the point is to make foreigners look like fools that's when I get annoyed. It's not funny. I can laugh at the differences between the cultures because somethings are funny or odd, but when I am made to feel that I am being laughed AT that is wrong.

Mikawa Ossan said:

I thought that's what talento were supposed to do. Japanese comedians and talento do the craziest things all the time, so why should we get upset when some foreigner does the same thing?

That makes no sense to me.

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Yeah, there are lots of Japanese comedians/tarento who also act crazy/dumb/odd, dressing in doinky-looking costumes and making doinky jokes. I think a lot of foreign tarento simply do the same things as their Japanese counterparts. Of course, if the point of the tarento's act is to try to make himself/herself look like a bigger doink than the Japanese ones, then that can be considered problematic.

doinkies said:

Of course, if the point of the tarento's act is to try to make himself/herself look like a bigger doink than the Japanese ones, then that can be considered problematic.

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That would be a hard thing to do. Being stupid is part of Japanese comedic culture.

One of my favorites: AHO AHO Man

And another:

Thane Camus has long since died on Karakuri. However, he doesn't / didn't just make Japanese look like fools. His clip Funniest English was also done in reverse with foreigners doing Funniest Japanese. In fact, both of these were far more worthwhile IMO than the other crap on Karakuri. Sadly, it was Bobby Olgun (sp?) who got discovered on Thane's clips, essentially took over his episodes, and steered the whole focus away from the language issue.

FireyRei said:

P.S. Forgot to mention what happened to me a few years back: Came home one day, go to check my post & find my box out of the 100 or so is the only one vandalised. Later, got home one day to find 'Gaijin kaere' sprayed on my door.
Lovely.

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Well I don't know what 'kaere' means but I wonder what would happened here if someone did the same to a muslim.Hard to belive for me. I am reading a lot of things in this forum and to be honest I had no idea.