Have you encountered discrimination or prejudices in Japan?

Look, firstly, I'd like to point this out to people:

Japan is NOT OUR COUNTRY it is THEIRS. We have no right to go there and cry the blues about racism or discrimination. We are lucky they even let us in there. I'd like to see you guys go to Mexico and scream and cry about how it is virtually impossible for a non-native-born Mexican to get citizenship (it is much easier to get Japanese citizenship in comparison). </irony>

My point is, we honestly have no right to go there and complain. Who are we to tell them what to do in their own country? It's absolutely hypocritical.

Am I justifying racism? No. It's wrong. Yes. Fine. If I experience it, I'll get ticked, yes. Ever consider, however, how sometimes Japanese assumptions can be an advantage, like how zeroyon inadvertantly gaijin smashed his way out of a parking ticket? Or would you guys be too busy getting offended and thinking you have a right to go and remake their country and culture as you see fit? Does the term postmodern relativism mean anything to you guys? Or does it only apply to third world countries?

Please excuse my anger and frustration here, but I cannot see this as anything but hypocrisy. They have every right to deport you if you sneeze the wrong way. It is their homeland, not yours. You can come back home and pillage our institutions and protest here to your heart's content, and it's your god-given right, but at least have respect for the boundary of a sovereign nation.

Mike Cash said:

You do realize that some of the people you're talking to have spent longer than that in Japan just counting the time they've spent sitting on the crapper, don't you?

My undershorts have been here longer than that.

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Instead of talking about your foul bowel habits or your panties, why don't you address the conversation? Don't address me, address the issue.
You've just made White Girls point actually, justifying and defending.
Do you realize that some of the people you're talking to don't care how long you've been here? If you've been here long enough to experience what has been talked about on this forumn, then that's long enough. Whether it's one year, three years, or 10 years. If you're a bit slower to realize things, then maybe it'll take y'all longer to catch on.
Remember, try to keep focused on the issue w/in the forumn.

genmai said:

You've just made White Girls point actually, justifying and defending.

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Ummm, how? He's questioning your claim that you "know what's going on", based on the fact that, compared to him, you've just arrived in Japan and have yet to even come close to having "seen everything". Therefore, it is questionable whether your judgement in the whole matter is specious or not.

The fact that you don't care how long he's been there, I think, firmly situates you in the "early-mid-twenties, I-have-a-degree-and-know-everything" category. Besides, Mike is a highly respected member of these fora, and you are basically a nobody newcomer who has yet to establish himself as anything but a belligerent loudmouth with a chip on his shoulder.

Besides, I just did address the issue, and I went totally ignored. So, I'd like to ask you:

What right do you have to go to someone else's country and demand that they change?

If you don't like it there, leave. You are free to go back home anytime. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and saying you have to stay there and suffer. Yeah, racism is wrong, but nobody here is justifying or defending it. We have a right and duty to fight it in our own homes, but you have no right to force your agenda down their throats.

Besides, have they shot firehoses at you? Have they thrown you off of a bus for not giving up your seat? Have they lynched you, tarred and feathered you, and dragged your corpse through a street? Have you had to drink from "gaijin only" fountains? No. What you've experienced is people being jerks. You haven't even truly come close to experiencing what true racism is.

genmai said:

You've just made White Girls point actually, justifying and defending.

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That's laughable. Not only did I not justify or defend it....I didn't address it at all.

Do you realize that some of the people you're talking to don't care how long you've been here?

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I would hope that they don't care how long I've been here. You're the one who dragged out the tired old tactic of propping up one's own opinions on Japan by referencing how long one has been here....as though it means something.

What makes it cute is when it is done by people who are so freshly arrived they still feel the need to include "and a half". It's adorable. Sort of like a little kid giving their "going on" age in addition to their actual age. Anything to stand up on their figurative tippy-toes and gain a little stature.

pipokun said:

I wish I would see them...

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Me too!

genmai said:

Thanks for your welcome.

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You're welcome!

I have experienced racism all my life, so I know what it looks like.

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If it's not too personal, would you mind sharing with us at least an episode, so we can get a better idea where you're coming from?

An honest look at the way that everyone treats me? Uh, Yes of course. Come on, you have to be blind or sucking up the Japanese to believe otherwise. Don't be blind, open your eyes and deal w/ what we are saying. Please don't try to cover it up, turn the other cheek, or walk the other way. How many examples do you need? (on the train, in the super, walking on the street, police stopping bikers, store staff interactions, staring, gestures, avoiding, silence, rudeness, oddness....come on.

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I guess this is where we differ. I try to interact with people as equals and I have not adopted an "us vs them" mentality during my life here. I do not look for racism, and consequently, I don't often find it.

What I do find is behaviour based upon a certain collective experience which I largely concur with. Most non-asian foreigners are NOT able to hold their own in a conversation in the Japanese language. Also, foreigners' reactions ARE often unpredictable. And this I say based upon my own experience as a foreigner intereacting with foreigners in Japan.

Much of the "racism" you describe seems to stem from the above. I suppose in the strict sense it is racism, but it's not based on any kind of racial theory, but rather experience.

One does not need to fit in at the nation-wide level to fit in with the people around you. And the Japanese people around you are willing to let you in to the extent that you prove yourself to do so.

Metaphor: If a student moves to a new school and can't make any friends, the first place to look is in the self, and not blame the whole school for being bigoted.

I'll go ahead and point out that I have never been to Japan, nor do I know anyone that has.

So from what I've read, we have people complaining about being asked for a visa/passport,bike registration card, and some funny looks or rude behaviour.

I cannot think of any country that would not ask to check your visa or passport. Not one. Nine times out of ten, foreigners stick out by some characteristic. If it's not your ethnicity, it's more than likely your apparel or speaking skills. My point being it's easy, generally speaking, for them to identify the outsider. Checking to see if they are there legally should not offend the person, the officer is doing his job(not saying they won't harass you though). You can get pulled over here(quite frequently) for no reason and get asked for your license,registration and proof of insurance.

Housing. Agencies, banks, and people have the right to turn you away for any reason they want to. Let's be honest, if you rented a house to five different Russians, on five different occasions, and they were all loud, damaged your property, and failed to pay the last months/few months rent, would you be so keen to rent to one again?

Bike registration card, don't know of many countries that have them, but to me it's the same as driving a car, they want to make sure you are in possession of it legally.

As for the funny looks or rude behaviour, grow up. There is always going to be someone somewhere who won't like you, and probably never will. If you go and seek them out, you can't complain. I was fat from elementary to middle school. I wore glasses, I was smart, I was nerdy, I played soccer, when I spoke I rarely used a word shorter than 6 letters. Guess what? People gave me funny looks and were mean to me. Big surprise, I stood out. I never really cared if people said rude things about/to me or gave me funny looks. I still don't, the only time I care is if they act like they might try to hurt me. I'll also say I've never ventured where I wasn't wanted, that's just common sense.

I don't understand why it's important or a matter of interest if people treat you this way. Until they hurt or threaten you, get over it.

The funny part, my Tennessee homie, is that the ones who complain the loudest and hardest about Japanese noticing they are foreigners (and treating them as foreigners) very often owe their ability to make a living in Japan to using their foreignness as a commodity.

English teachers getting pissed off because Japanese assume they speak English belongs in a Monty Python sketch.

genmai vs. genmai

genmai said:

I've been here 3 and half yrs, so I have some idea of what's going on.

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qenmai said:

Do you realize that some of the people you're talking to don't care how long you've been here?

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Couldn't have said it any better myself.

genmai said:

You're exactly right, many foreigners here in Japan justify most of this sometimes racist and bizarre Japanese behavior. It is sucking up to the nth degree. They always try to give excuses as to why Japanese act a certain way. ...Oh, mabye they didn't hear you, Oh, maybe they don't speak English, Oh, maybe they were just being polite, Oh, maybe it's how you said it, Oh, maybe they don't understand 'gaijin', Oh, maybe they are shy or embarrassed or...whatever.

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Since we are talking in generalities here, I'd like to point out that the above "examples" are not excuses unless they are intentionally given. Call me a defender if you will (and you will be wrong), but the above can all be legitimate reasons, not excuses.

I read the first few pages of this thread (realizing it is 2 years old), then skipped a couple before Sept. 2007 discussions became posted. I, too, would like to know if in those unread pages were there really examples of people justifying the racism in Japan?

(And, in case you need to know, I agree that there is racism here. Sometimes I can explain it, but I certainly don't defend it.)

jmwintenn wrote:

I cannot think of any country that would not ask to check your visa or passport. Not one. Nine times out of ten, foreigners stick out by some characteristic. If it's not your ethnicity, it's more than likely your apparel or speaking skills. My point being it's easy, generally speaking, for them to identify the outsider. Checking to see if they are there legally should not offend the person, the officer is doing his job(not saying they won't harass you though).

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Police have no right to ask a person to identify themselves without just cause. Since you have never been to Japan, I thought I should explain that. I was stopped once in 9 years. The guy was in plainclothes, too, and didn't even identify himself properly until I forced the issue. He mumbled his pathetic reason for asking to see my passport, and did a poor job of examining my alien card (didn't even look for my current information on the back).

But, there is more to discrimination and racism here than being checked for bike registration or not being allowed in bars/bathhouses. A lot of it is hidden, and unless one knows what to look for (in work contracts, for example), one might not even know they were discriminated.

Bike registration card, don't know of many countries that have them, but to me it's the same as driving a car, they want to make sure you are in possession of it legally.

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Then why stop only the foreigners on bikes and not all people?

Housing. Agencies, banks, and people have the right to turn you away for any reason they want to.

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Not legally they don't.

I don't understand why it's important or a matter of interest if people treat you this way. Until they hurt or threaten you, get over it.

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Since you admit you have absolutely no experience in this matter related to Japan, you are not going to understand. "Get over it" is an expression to use only if you have a justifiable experienced reason. I prefer to say "Learn to adapt", but people should also know what to expect before they come here (or learn as much as possible).

Those "funny looks" you pooh-pooh can make some people pretty uncomfortable. Try sitting on a bus or train and have nearly every set of eyes on you simply because you look different. Do this day in and day out. It's not just being fat. Most Japanese have never seen a non-Asian foreigner in person, and they feel the need to look them over. (And, with little kids, it becomes vocalized to the parents' embarrassment, but they realize that there may be a language barrier, so they can only hold the child back and not attempt to apologize.) I met a woman who had been here a year and was fed up with the stares. She was a fair-skinned, freckled, strawberry blond with deep blue eyes. Quite the contrast to the brown-eyed, black or brown-haired Japanese! When we rode on the train once, she stopped in mid-sentence to glare daggers at someone over my shoulder. I knew instantly what was happening and whispered, "Is someone looking at you?" She cursed under her breath and continued to stare for at least a minute. Gimme a break! Live here a year with that type of appearance in a semi-rural suburb, and you just have to realize that people will stare. She went home a week later.

Bevor asking respect,learn to be respectful to a country where you are
guest.I think they didnt call you.You have to adopt the social manners
here and not vice versa.

Glenski said:

Police have no right to ask a person to identify themselves without just cause.

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In the States, I have learned that what the police are allowed to do, what they say they can do, and what they do do are three very different things. Considering what I've heard about Japan, I'd be surprised that the cops there are all that different.

Most Japanese have never seen a non-Asian foreigner in person, and they feel the need to look them over. (And, with little kids, it becomes vocalized to the parents' embarrassment, but they realize that there may be a language barrier, so they can only hold the child back and not attempt to apologize.)

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I had a Korean student that told me that it is because they stare at the unusual and different. Therefore, they stare at foreigners, and she explained it as curiosity. She even got into trouble staring at people on buses and trains in the United States, and wasn't sure why. I told her that it is considered rude here and to stop doing it, period. I explained how it makes people uncomfortable and sends the clear message of, "You are different, you don't belong" to people. I think she was being pretty honest about not meaning anything by staring, especially because she told me that she thinks Americans are the most misunderstood people in the world (but that's a different conversation). But it was a bit of a shock to her to realize what she was doing in our mindset.

Then again, she was Korean, so maybe Korean motivation for staring is different.

Besides, I hear that people stare on the train at each other in Europe all the time.

When we rode on the train once, she stopped in mid-sentence to glare daggers at someone over my shoulder. I knew instantly what was happening and whispered, "Is someone looking at you?" She cursed under her breath and continued to stare for at least a minute.

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I've had friends who say the best thing to do is make a show of staring back, wave, or somehow call the person out, "Excuse me, you are staring at me", or "Yes, I'm a foreigner, get over it." They usually get embarassed and look away. Even if it is not necessarily a good way to assimilate, and it is unlikely that any Japanese person would be so overt.

I find it ironic that these people alo come to the United States, and the first moment they hear some frat punk yell out of their car window, or get poor service at a store, they want to cry the blues to me about how they are being discriminated against. I usually follow it up with a description of how I've had friends refused cab rides or restaraunt service in their countries because they were foreign, with an explanation of what real racism and discrimination is (firehoses, lynchings, Jim Crow, etc).

I am not justifying the behavior of the Japanese. I do feel it is wrong. I have no intention of changing their country. But I also have no compunction against telling them just how rude they can be to foreigners, and that it is hypocritical to complain about poor service or dumb jocks and play the "race card" when what they are really dealing with is jerks and a--holes, not discrimination.

GodEmperorLeto said:

In the States, I have learned that what the police are allowed to do, what they say they can do, and what they do do are three very different things. Considering what I've heard about Japan, I'd be surprised that the cops there are all that different.

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That doesn't make it right in any country that recognizes the rights of human beings. But we're getting slightly off the track here.

I had a Korean student that told me that it is because they stare at the unusual and different. Therefore, they stare at foreigners, and she explained it as curiosity. She even got into trouble staring at people on buses and trains in the United States, and wasn't sure why. I told her that it is considered rude here and to stop doing it, period. I explained how it makes people uncomfortable and sends the clear message of, "You are different, you don't belong" to people. I think she was being pretty honest about not meaning anything by staring, especially because she told me that she thinks Americans are the most misunderstood people in the world (but that's a different conversation). But it was a bit of a shock to her to realize what she was doing in our mindset.
Then again, she was Korean, so maybe Korean motivation for staring is different.

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Actually, I don't think the motivation is any different for the Japanese.

Besides, I hear that people stare on the train at each other in Europe all the time.

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Hmm, interesting. Been there twice now (England, Scotland, Belgium) and never saw that happen. But what you are describing here in general terms can be explained by the fact that European countries are used to people traveling within their borders from other countries, and people don't look all that differently because of proximity or intermingling of races. It's different with the "homogeneous" Asian cultures. We non-Asians stick out.

it is unlikely that any Japanese person would be so overt [as to stare].

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I totally disagree!

I usually follow it up with a description of how I've had friends refused cab rides or restaraunt service in their countries because they were foreign, with an explanation of what real racism and discrimination is (firehoses, lynchings, Jim Crow, etc).

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Those are just more overt (to use your word) and more violent manifestations of racism and discrimination. One can be discriminated against without violence, don't you think?

Glenski said:

Police have no right to ask a person to identify themselves without just cause. Since you have never been to Japan, I thought I should explain that.

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well,the "just cause" of it would to make sure you're there legally,which is what I was trying to imply. I honestly see no harm in that. I agree police can abuse their powers, and often do.

Glenski said:

Then why stop only the foreigners on bikes and not all people?

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I'm sure they have stopped Japanese citizens before, and I hope you don't argue against that.

Glenski said:

Not legally they don't.

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Really? A privately owned business doesn't have the right to turn anyone they think won't/can't make the payments away? That's the arguement I'm sure they use, or something similar, and it'll probably hold.

Glenski said:

Since you admit you have absolutely no experience in this matter related to Japan, you are not going to understand. "Get over it" is an expression to use only if you have a justifiable experienced reason. I prefer to say "Learn to adapt", but people should also know what to expect before they come here (or learn as much as possible).

Those "funny looks" you pooh-pooh can make some people pretty uncomfortable. Try sitting on a bus or train and have nearly every set of eyes on you simply because you look different. Do this day in and day out.

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I'll admit I won't understand it since it's related to Japan, but I can empathize. I moved to MS the last semester of my senior year this past January. It was a town with a population of 1,300. The principal of the school had me running in circles for 21 days before he finally caved(because I had notarized papers from the state) and let me enroll. He wouldn't put me in honors classes like I had before, even though there was room. He pretty much made the last 5 months of high school as crappy as he could for me. I didn't do anything to him, at my father's urging, he didn't like me because I wasn't "from 'round there." Also everyone in the town(and kids in class) would stare at me when I went somewhere. The first month I was there no one would say anything to me, just stared at me.

Personally, I like quiet, so I didn't mind(about the staring). I will yeild that some people can't handle it, but I'll also say that they shouldn't put themselves in a position they cannot handle.

Mike Cash said:

The funny part, my Tennessee homie, is that the ones who complain the loudest and hardest about Japanese noticing they are foreigners (and treating them as foreigners) very often owe their ability to make a living in Japan to using their foreignness as a commodity.

English teachers getting pissed off because Japanese assume they speak English and therefore belong in a Monty Python sketch.

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Honestly, it doesn't surprise me. When I heard someone say "they'd rather be a popular idiot than a lonely genius" , I knew things had hit the ceiling.

The Japanese police do stop Japanese on bicycles and check for registration.

I have numerous times seen cops standing in places with little or no foreigner traffic (bicycle or otherwise) and snag one Japanese after another for the checks. When it happens in places with no foreigners around, quite naturally the foreigners don't know it is happening. And with faulty logic they assume that it doesn't happen.

jmwintenn said:

glenski said:

jmwintenn said:

Housing. Agencies, banks, and people have the right to turn you away for any reason they want to.

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Not legally they don't.

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Really? A privately owned business doesn't have the right to turn anyone they think won't/can't make the payments away? That's the arguement I'm sure they use, or something similar, and it'll probably hold.

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I'm not too familiar with Japanese law on this matter, but then again neither are you. I can say that at least in the USA it is illegal to turn away a customer/refuse to sell them real estate based on their race. I would suppose that similar laws exist in Japan.
Can people come up with ways to get away with it in court? Yes. But people get away with a lot of things in court. That doesn't mean it's not illegal.
And I'll bet that no matter what, no judge would accept "because he was a foregner" as an excuse.

GodEmperorLeto said:

Japan is NOT OUR COUNTRY it is THEIRS. We have no right to go there and cry the blues about racism or discrimination. We are lucky they even let us in there.

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All moral and personal objections aside, this is ultimately true. In a place like Canada or America where we proclaim to be open and accepting of all creeds and colours its necessary to try and eradicate racism as much as possible to support our own self-proclaimed image. On top of that our countries were and continue to be built on the backs of migrant workers so anyone who knows that knows how hypocritical it is to be racist. Japan doesn't have the same history, it's an older country with older traditions and was and remains extremely homogenous socially and culturally. We simply don't get this, it's a foreign concept to us as Westerners a lot of the time. I believe this entitles them to a different kind of treatment. The way you enter an elderly person's home and conduct yourself is different than going to your college friends apartment slash flop-house for the weekend.

Glenksi said:

She cursed under her breath and continued to stare for at least a minute. Gimme a break! Live here a year with that type of appearance in a semi-rural suburb, and you just have to realize that people will stare. She went home a week later.

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No offense but that's her damned loss. I found the people who generally suffered the most in Japan and ended up going home early were the types who seemed to think all the same cultural entitlements that applied to them back home (not being stared at, not being asked a few extra questions when renting an apartment or parking their bicycle) somehow got transferred with their visa. All the subtle forms of 'racism' that exist in the world are so much more apparent when we travel, but they exist back home too and its simply the way the world is at the moment. Looking at the big picture really helped me get past all this BS and enjoy Japan for the beautiful country it is. My acceptance of this and subsequent attitude towards daily affairs may or may not have contributed to the fact that I never got hassled over there, but it certainly increased my personal enjoyment.

Mike Cash said:

What makes it cute is when it is done by people who are so freshly arrived they still feel the need to include "and a half". It's adorable. Sort of like a little kid giving their "going on" age in addition to their actual age. Anything to stand up on their figurative tippy-toes and gain a little stature.

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That's kind of belittleing, I think everyone's experience is valid if properly articulated. There were some people in Japan I met who'd been there years longer than me and they were pretty oblivious to things the newly arrived had picked up on ages ago. I save my judgement for people's ideas and not the duration of their stay in the country. Living in Japan is a great experience and not everyone is lucky enough to have it. I do think that someone who's been in Japan longer, knows the language, has more experience, etc., is more qualified to speak on certain issues, but it doesn't lessen someone elses experience to the extreme you mention.

bakaKanadajin said:

That's kind of belittleing, I think everyone's experience is valid if properly articulated. There were some people in Japan I met who'd been there years longer than me and they were pretty oblivious to things the newly arrived had picked up on ages ago. I save my judgement for people's ideas and not the duration of their stay in the country. Living in Japan is a great experience and not everyone is lucky enough to have it. I do think that someone who's been in Japan longer, knows the language, has more experience, etc., is more qualified to speak on certain issues, but it doesn't lessen someone elses experience to the extreme you mention.

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You misread my comment.

Over the years I have on numerous occasions and in numerous places expressed the exact same sentiment you outlined above. My point is, and always has been, that one's opinions and assertions regarding life in Japan should be able to stand on their own internal merits without having to be propped up by resorting to the tactic of slapping a big "I've been here XX years so I know what I'm talking about" sticker on them.

And it is cute when the "and a half" gets thrown in.

Well,the "just cause" of it would be to make sure you're there legally, which is what I was trying to imply. I honestly see no harm in that.
That is not "just cause". The same thing holds for police inspecting your car or home. If there is not reason for them to suspect something is amiss (and the key here is "reason"), then they have no legal right, in the USA or Japan, to ask for your ID. Perhaps you should look at what Debito Arudou has to say about being stopped by the police for no "just cause", only to verify your passport.

I'm sure they have stopped Japanese citizens before, and I hope you don't argue against that.

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Yes, they have stopped Japanese citizens before for bike registration. People have reported, however, that after they (foreigners) are stopped, then they ask the cops if Japanese are being stopped too, the cops say yes, but totally ignore any passing Japanese at that time on bikes. So, it's a case by case thing, and if you are stopped and are the only one who is stopped, it is suspiciously like discrimination, don't you agree?

A privately owned business doesn't have the right to turn anyone they think won't/can't make the payments away? That's the arguement I'm sure they use, or something similar, and it'll probably hold.

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Stop moving the goalposts. You originally said they "have the right to turn you away for any reason". The reason you just cited is totally valid. You think they turn down foreigners for only valid reasons? Nope. Lots of apartments turn away foreigners for the most ludicrous of reasons.

Examples:
We stink (or our food stinks).
We don't know how to use tatami floors.
We won't be able to understand enough people.

GodEmperorLeto said:

Look, firstly, I'd like to point this out to people:
Japan is NOT OUR COUNTRY it is THEIRS. We have no right to go there and cry the blues about racism or discrimination.
...
but at least have respect for the boundary of a sovereign nation.

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The moral and philosophical arguments about the views expressed in your post could go on forever. However, Japan has signed and ratified a UN TREATY against racism.

PERTINENT BITS OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE ELIMINATION OF ALL FORMS OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION:
(Ratified (hijun) by Japan Nov 1995, Officially inaugurated (hakkou) Jan 14, 1996)

Article 1
1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

Article 2
1. States Parties condemn racial discrimination and undertake to pursue BY ALL APPROPRIATE MEANS AND WITHOUT DELAY [all block caps here and hereinafter are my emphasis added] a policy of eliminating racial discrimination in all its forms and promoting understanding among all races, and, to this end:

(a) Each State Party undertakes to engage in no act or practice of racial discrimination against persons, groups of persons or institutions and to ensure that all public authorities and public institutions, NATIONAL AND LOCAL, shall act in conformity with this obligation;

(d) Each State Party shall prohibit and bring to an end, BY ALL APPROPRIATE MEANS, INCLUDING LEGISLATION AS REQUIRED BY CIRCUMSTANCES, racial discrimination by any persons, group or organization;

2. States Parties shall, when the circumstances so warrant, take, in the social, economic, cultural and other fields, SPECIAL AND CONCRETE MEASURES to ensure the adequate development and protection of certain racial groups or individuals belonging to them, for the purpose of guaranteeing them the full and equal enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms.

Article 5
In compliance with the fundamental obligations laid down in Article 2 of this Convention, States Parties undertake to prohibit and to eliminate racial discrimination in all its forms and to guarantee the right of everyone, without distinction as to race, colour, or national or ethnic origin, to equality before the law, notably in the enjoyment of the following rights:

(f) The right of access to any place or service intended for use by the general public, such as transport, hotels, restaurants, cafes, theatres and parks. [NB: This includes private-sector businesses.]

Article 6
States Parties shall assure to EVERYONE WITHIN THEIR JURISDICTION EFFECTIVE PROTECTION AND REMEDIES, through the competent national tribunals AND OTHER STATE INSTITUTIONS, against any acts of racial discrimination which violate his human rights and fundamental freedoms contrary to this Convention, as well as the right to seek from such tribunals just and adequate reparation or satisfaction for any damage suffered as a result of such discrimination.

I don't think anyone could argue that Japan is adhering to the treaty, or even making any attempt to. And I think most people would agree that signing and ratifiying a UN treaty places a country under a legal obligation to comply with that treaty. Therefore, Japan does NOT have the right indulge in racial discrimination, and non-Japanese have every right to complain about racism in Japan.

bakaKanadajin said:

That's kind of belittleing, I think everyone's experience is valid if properly articulated.

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I'm sticking my neck out here, but that whole exchange with genmai actually made me quite depressed (I must be getting emotionally attached to JREF!!) I think he describes his experiences very well, if a little 'enhusiastically', and didn't deserve being swatted by various members.

@Taiko666

I've re-read genmai's posts and couldn't find a single instance of him describing his experiences. Could you point out where that happened, because if it was there, it was buried beneath lines like this:

genmai said:

Classic, the 'It's never happened to me' crap. [his first line in this thread]
...
It is sucking up to the nth degree.
...
Some 'gaijin' want to fit in so badly, they turn into conformist robots.
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Come on, you have to be blind or sucking up the Japanese to believe otherwise. Don't be blind, open your eyes and deal w/ what we are saying. [directed at Mikawa Ossan]
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Instead of talking about your foul bowel habits or your panties, why don't you address the conversation?

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Talk like that deserves to be swatted away.

JimmySeal said:

Talk like that deserves to be swatted away.

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I agree, that kind of language is unacceptable (the first line at any rate.) Gaijinpot or Japantoday seems to be the place for that! However, the issue of his language style didn't seem to be addressed. Maybe I should have done that myself rather than belatedly lamenting all the unpleasantness (>_<).

Friendly debate at hand

JimmySeal said:

I can say that at least in the USA it is illegal to turn away a customer/refuse to sell them real estate based on their race. I would suppose that similar laws exist in Japan.
Can people come up with ways to get away with it in court? Yes. But people get away with a lot of things in court. That doesn't mean it's not illegal.
And I'll bet that no matter what, no judge would accept "because he was a foregner" as an excuse.

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this may surprise you,but 90% of all deeds(at least in the south) have a clause saying non-whites cannot buy the house in question. They ignore it, and are trying to get rid of it, but if one wanted to, they could use race as a factor and it'd hold in court. Always read the fine print.

Taiko666 said:

However, Japan has signed and ratified a UN TREATY against racism.
And I think most people would agree that signing and ratifiying a UN treaty places a country under a legal obligation to comply with that treaty. Therefore, Japan does NOT have the right indulge in racial discrimination, and non-Japanese have every right to complain about racism in Japan.

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Ahem, so you honestly believe every country that signed the Geneva Convention adheres to it 100% of the time?or at all? I can guarantee that medical personnel and civilians have been fired upon, and that inhumane things are done to POWs by the countries that signed it. Just because a country/person signs something doesn't mean they are going to keep their word.

Glenski said:

That is not "just cause". The same thing holds for police inspecting your car or home. If there is not reason for them to suspect something is amiss (and the key here is "reason"), then they have no legal right, in the USA or Japan, to ask for your ID.

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well, the Patriot Act gives the US government the authority and right to do anything they want to us civilians and violates the Bill of Rights. Ok, let me pose this to you: You are in Russia, you are an officer of the law. You happen to see a very dark skinned man walking down the street. Russia is predominantly white, and you see he cannot speak Russian. Would you not in the least bit go over and at least ask him, if not check his passport, if he was there legally? I don't think anything when a cop asks a Mexican for his greencard, because they have a history of coming illegally.

Glenski said:

Yes, they have stopped Japanese citizens before for bike registration. People have reported, however, that after they (foreigners) are stopped, then they ask the cops if Japanese are being stopped too, the cops say yes, but totally ignore any passing Japanese at that time on bikes. So, it's a case by case thing, and if you are stopped and are the only one who is stopped, it is suspiciously like discrimination, don't you agree?

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Well, you just said it's a case by case thing. To me, that just pretty much nullified your arguement on that point. Some people are racist, and some of those find their way into positions of authority. Some are doing it because the person is non-Japanese, others are not. But yes, I agree.

Glenski said:

Stop moving the goalposts. You originally said they "have the right to turn you away for any reason". The reason you just cited is totally valid. You think they turn down foreigners for only valid reasons? Nope. Lots of apartments turn away foreigners for the most ludicrous of reasons.
Examples:
We stink (or our food stinks).
We don't know how to use tatami floors.
We won't be able to understand enough people.

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Here's the thing, I didn't move the goalposts. I gave an example of how they are going to phrase it if you call them on it and it goes to court. Does that mean it's fair? No, it doesn't. I have, however, never heard of a private business or landowner getting in trouble for turning someone away since it's not government regulated. That is my point, a privately owned business/landowner can refuse anyone they want.

To be fair though, I don't think the majority of foreigners know what a tatami floor is, let alone how to use one. Myself included. So I wouldn't call that ludicrous, especially if it would cause damage to the floor if not used properly.

jmwintenn said:

Ahem, so you honestly believe every country that signed the Geneva Convention adheres to it 100% of the time?or at all?

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Of course not. But countries who sign the Geneva Convention and then break its conditions should be vociferously criticised. Ditto Japan and its non-adherence to the racial discrimination treaty it signed.