Grammar Syntax.

Damicci · 8 Oct 2012

いい頭あるでも上手くの日本語は難しいので日本に住むことがありません。
Even if I am smart, because I haven't lived in japan good japanese is difficult.(to use/learn)

I am pretty sure I butchered that sentence. But could I get some pointers with my grammar.

if ので is not the best option what be a more suitable way of saying the above?

Toritoribe · 9 Oct 2012

たとえ頭がよくても、日本に住んだことがないので上手な日本語は習いにくい/使いにくい。

ので is appropriate but the position is wrong. You can also use から.

Damicci · 9 Oct 2012

Ah, I was right the first time, well as far as positioning. I was thinking it was positioned after but then thought again and used before the past tense clause.

I figured I could use kara but that is a lil easier to use. So I was trying to think of another way to say it.

Mike Cash · 9 Oct 2012

Be careful of using でも as a drop-in equivalent of "but". The で portion is from だ (です) and as such can't be just tacked on behind a verb like that.

Also, be aware that <verb> ことがない functions very differently depending on whether the verb is in past tense or non-past tense. In past tense, it means "have the experience of <verb>" but in the non-past it means "mustn't <verb>" or "there's no call to <verb>" and works more as a prohibition or admonition.

Damicci · 10 Oct 2012

I need to study more conjugation as I didn't mean to put でも but couldn't find the correct conjugation for ある to あっても。
Thanks Mike, I will make effort to remember that.

Rewriting this with out going back to see what Toritoribe suggested:
頭が良くても日本に住んだ事ないので上手な日本語が使いにくいと思います。would the kanji for こと be needed in this case?

Toritoribe · 10 Oct 2012

That こと is a nominalizer(形式名詞), and there is a rule that 形式名詞 should be written in hiragana in official documents stated by the Agency for Cultural Affairs.

http://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/joho/kijun/sanko/koyobun/pdf/kunrei.pdf
(pdf file, all in Japanese)

But the rule is limited in official documents, so it's no problem to use the kanji 事 in personal use.

Elizabeth · 10 Oct 2012

Damicci said:
I need to study more conjugation as I didn't mean to put でも but couldn't find the correct conjugation for ある to あっても。
Thanks Mike, I will make effort to remember that.

Rewriting this with out going back to see what Toritoribe suggested:
頭が良くても日本に住んだ事ないので上手な日本語が使いにくいと思います。would the kanji for こと be needed in this case?

I wonder if 頭がいいかもしれませんが or even どんなに頭が良くても/たとえ頭がよくても can replace 頭が良くても here and be a usage that is more modest in tone when the subject is the speaker or the writer. "~~かもしれませんが" at least is commonly used to express the idea of "may--but" in explaining or conceding a point in a debate without compromising your entire point-of-view.

You can also say に住んだ事がないから but it describes a subjective reason, based on personal opinions that don't have to be justified rather than widely acceptable reason or actual fact so it can make the sentence sound stronger, or even unreasonable and childish. ので is the softer 'because.'

Mike Cash · 10 Oct 2012

I didn't realize you have never lived in Japan, Damicci. I would say that considering how that has limited your exposure to Japanese you are doing quite well. Keep it up!

Speedy Japanese · 10 Oct 2012

Another option using might be "Atama ga ii noni nihon ni sunda koto ga nai kara nihongo ga muzukashii desu".

Mike Cash · 10 Oct 2012

Grammatically correct, yet highly unnatural unless the speaker is obviously trying to be humorous. Assuming the speaker is referring to himself, of course.

Glenn · 10 Oct 2012

Toritoribe said:
たとえ頭がよくても、日本に住んだことがないので上手な日本語は習いにくい/使いにくい。

いかにも。

Mike Cash said:
Also, be aware that <verb> ことがない functions very differently depending on whether the verb is in past tense or non-past tense. In past tense, it means "have the experience of <verb>" but in the non-past it means "mustn't <verb>" or "there's no call to <verb>" and works more as a prohibition or admonition.

Interestingly, the one use I thought of wasn't either of these -- it was the negated version of することがある, or "sometimes do..."

Toritoribe · 10 Oct 2012

Probably Mike-san was talking about "the present form of verbs + ことはない".
The meaning of ～ことはない changes depending on the type of verbs. It means "never/don't" (e.g. 雨が降ることはない = 雨は降らない "(will) not rain") with non-volitional verbs, whereas it can also mean "no need to do" with volitional verbs (e.g. 謝ることはない = 謝る必要はない "no need to apologize" or 謝らない "(will) not apologize"). The first and last one can be considered the topicalized version of 雨が降ることがない and 謝ることがない, respectively.

Speedy Japanese · 10 Oct 2012

Mike Cash said:
Grammatically correct, yet highly unnatural unless the speaker is obviously trying to be humorous. Assuming the speaker is referring to himself, of course.

The sentence in and of itself is not very nihonjinpoi. Was helping him express his thought more than looking for a different sentence entirely.

Damicci · 14 Oct 2012

Elizabeth said:
I wonder if 頭がいいかもしれませんが or even どんなに頭が良くても/たとえ頭がよくても can replace 頭が良くても here and be a usage that is more modest in tone when the subject is the speaker or the writer. "~~かもしれませんが" at least is commonly used to express the idea of "may--but" in explaining or conceding a point in a debate without compromising your entire point-of-view.

You can also say に住んだ事がないから but it describes a subjective reason, based on personal opinions that don't have to be justified rather than widely acceptable reason or actual fact so it can make the sentence sound stronger, or even unreasonable and childish. ので is the softer 'because.'

That was why I wanted to use node. It seemed abit more mature based on meaning and I wanted to avoid using common terms. Basically working to make my japanese more productive than "See jane run. see jane kick the ball. jane is sleepy" type sentences.

Mike Cash said:
I didn't realize you have never lived in Japan, Damicci. I would say that considering how that has limited your exposure to Japanese you are doing quite well. Keep it up!

Thanks Mike, it is very tough in my situtation which is probably similar to many but I can only speak for myself. I want to be able to functionally communicate with friends, wife's friends and family so I need to stay on my studies. Thanks again.

Toritoribe said:
Probably Mike-san was talking about "the present form of verbs + ことはない".
The meaning of ～ことはない changes depending on the type of verbs. It means "never/don't" (e.g. 雨が降ることはない = 雨は降らない "(will) not rain") with non-volitional verbs, whereas it can also mean "no need to do" with volitional verbs (e.g. 謝ることはない = 謝る必要はない "no need to apologize" or 謝らない "(will) not apologize"). The first and last one can be considered the topicalized version of 雨が降ることがない and 謝ることがない, respectively.

Yeah for some reason I don't recall learning the limitations on ことがある/ことはない. My studies are quite scrambled as I learn based usage. So I often hear てないといけません＝してないといけません。But I never really learned the opposite of this verb conjugation. And it is obviously such a minor mistake that can drastically change the meaning of what is being said.

Grammar Syntax.

Damicci

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Damicci

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Damicci

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Elizabeth

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Speedy Japanese

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Glenn

一切皆苦

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Speedy Japanese

先輩

Damicci

先輩

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