Gov't to consider Japanese language ability as requirement for long-stay foreigners

[bakaKanadajin]

There IS no policy defined.

so whats the big stink about then?

 

[Elizabeth]

OK OK,
I got you, Hypothetically speaking then, If the policy, low, whatever term I should use, is/will be implemented/defined/finilized, we would have had this discussion, since nothing has been defined, we should forget that this conversation has ever took place.
I hope I have been specific enough.
Have a great day/night
Peace to you and all

Just remember to thank and heartily appreciate the natives that are willing to put forth what can be a tremendous effort on their part to do your English for you. Cause no one has ANY obligation whatsoever to rescue a foreigner that isn't even trying.

One difficulty is in the honorifics vs. polite forms vs. casual forms. Another lies in how certain things are spoken, depending on who is the target. (Talk about yourself, the person you are with, or someone not around, and you might have to use different grammar, for example.)

And you think that most Japanese are comfortable speaking at this level of nuance in English ??

 

[Pachipro]

Just how good does my Japanese have to be for a "long stay"?

I learned once that you are considered "fluent"/proficient in a language if you can conduct your daily business in a foreign country without the basic aid of a translator.
Look, if you've lived in Japan (or any country for that matter) for more than 3 years and plan on staying there longer/indefinitely and have not learned how to hold a simple conversation (or whatever language) or even taken the time to learn how to read hiragana/katagana (or whatever language), for whatever reason (I don't care), then you should be ashamed of yourself. There are no excuses IMO for not learning the basics of the language of the country you are residing in and plan on living long term in.

Many people are just too lazy to learn the local language. So they depend on their girlfriend/boyfriend, wife/husband/"significant other", or the foreign community, to get on with their life and simply skate by while demanding and insisting that the country they are residing in change to suit their needs. That is utterly arrogant!

Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all). Also, they will not simply deport single foreigners if they understand the basics of Japanese and can otherwise get on with their lives by simply going to the post office, shopping, travelling, asking for directions, get basic medical care, talk to the police in times of emergency, etc. on their own. Nowhere did I get the impression that the government was demanding, or the story insisting, that a person be fluent or near native speaker level.

This is just foreign hysteria gone amok (as usual) thinking that they will be deported, and that the Japanese are racist if they are unable to conduct their daily business in the local language.

If, however, you are a long-term single resident of Japan and cannot do the basics without a translator, then you should be denied an extension of your visa based on your ignorance and stupidity as, if you cannot even learn the basics of the country you plan on living in long-term, then you will be nothing but a burdon to society in general and probably can not add much to the country you are living in other than demand that they change to suit your needs.

 

[thatsme]

Just remember to thank and heartily appreciate the natives that are willing to put forth what can be a tremendous effort on their part to do your English for you. Cause no one has ANY obligation whatsoever to rescue a foreigner that isn't even trying.

THANKS THEN!!!!
If it has been incredibly difficult for you to understand my post due to my basic understanding of the English language I apologize.
Thanks again for your effort to try to understand my incomprehesible English written expression.
With the hope that in the future my written English will improve.

Peace to all

 

[Elizabeth]

THANKS THEN!!!!
If it has been incredibly difficult for you to understand my post due to my basic understanding of the English language I apologize.
Thanks again for your effort to try to understand my incomprehesible English written expression.
With the hope that in the future my written English will improve.
Peace to all

No, not again...not another misunderstanding. My reminder was for anyone harboring such an ambivilance towards their Japanese life that it is allowed it to spill over into a mistreatment of the locals.


In case you weren't aware, your posts, thatsme, are a pure joy to read. They are so inspiring in fact I really do want to become like you someday.

 

[ArmandV]

This is just foreign hysteria gone amok (as usual)

Ironic statement from our resident conspiratorialist. ;-)

 

[Glenski]

so whats the big stink about then?

You're joking, right?

The MOJ tosses a bone to the masses via the press, about a possible language requirement for people who want to stay here long-term. That's news in itself, but the other 99% of the information is pointless garbled chatter that offers nothing concrete and only serves to agitate people who may or may not even be involved in the new policy.

Why did they even announce something so premature? Many people (not just me) are confused, upset, angry, etc. about the lack of clear information.

That's the main stink.

Everything else hinges on who will actually be tested, how, at what point in their visa status, etc. Since none of this was clearly stated, it's infuriating and insulting, and serves no purpose. So, again, I ask why announce it?

Lastly, the backhanded mention of terrorism as a reason for all of this is unsubstantiated tripe from the government, perhaps looking for sympathy or empathy from the locals in order to get support for this unclear policy.

Maybe their whole purpose was simply to stir up conversation, but they could have done it in a much better way.

It all stinks.

Quote:One difficulty is in the honorifics vs. polite forms vs. casual forms. Another lies in how certain things are spoken, depending on who is the target. (Talk about yourself, the person you are with, or someone not around, and you might have to use different grammar, for example.)

And you think that most Japanese are comfortable speaking at this level of nuance in English ??

You lost me. There is hardly any level of "nuance" like that in English, and the point is lost because at least the Japanese get 6 years of mandatory grammar lessons.

The point I was trying to make, supported by someone else here, is this. Try things like yotee vs. tsumori just as one example. One has to remember how to use this "nuance" because it's not as straightforward as the pronouns in English usage.

 

[Glenski]

Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all).

There is nothing in all the articles nor in the history of immigration to support that. You are taking the MOJ bait by furthering the discussion.

Also, they will not simply deport single foreigners if they understand the basics of Japanese and can otherwise get on with their lives by simply going to the post office, shopping, travelling, asking for directions, get basic medical care, talk to the police in times of emergency, etc. on their own.

Hello! We don't know what to expect on the test. Have you seen otherwise?

Nowhere did I get the impression that the government was demanding, or the story insisting, that a person be fluent or near native speaker level.

Again, the MOJ is unclear what they want at this point.

If, however, you are a long-term single resident of Japan and cannot do the basics without a translator, then you should be denied an extension of your visa based on your ignorance and stupidity as, if you cannot even learn the basics of the country you plan on living in long-term, then you will be nothing but a burdon to society in general and probably can not add much to the country you are living in other than demand that they change to suit your needs.

You are contradicting yourself. Didn't you just write this?
Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all)

 

[Elizabeth]

You lost me. There is hardly any level of "nuance" like that in English, and the point is lost because at least the Japanese get 6 years of mandatory grammar lessons.
The point I was trying to make, supported by someone else here, is this. Try things like yotee vs. tsumori just as one example. One has to remember how to use this "nuance" because it's not as straightforward as the pronouns in English usage.

I'm even more confused now. So we are supposed to buy the argument that not able to distinguish similar relatively subtle and sophisticated usages is a reasonable excuse for not initiating a learning process at all ?

That's easy enough to counter. Just take a few seconds to consider what would happen if the Japanese being relied on for day to day functioning decided not to extend their good will out of concern that they would mix up two articles or pronouns, that a postal employee holding a book of stamps on the counter might mistakenly confuse "You want the five stamps?" with "These five" or any similarly nuanced delivery. Or even more unbelievably that the average Tanaka-san off the street is confident in his knowledge of the difference between "plan" and "intends" and that is vital to your getting by on your own in the country ??

Buy a damn phrase book, spend half and hour a night on each chapter, plus 5 kanji, practice the sentences on a friend or spouse and "go live" with at least one the next day. Geez. How hard can it be after hearing this stuff nonstop for what, 10 or so years ??

 

[orochi]

> How hard can it be after hearing this stuff nonstop for what, 10 or so years ??

Not everybody lives in that kind of environment, though.

 

[Glenski]

Can you lower your condescension meter about 50% and just try to see what is being said here? What is your actual experience living and working in Japan again? Less than a year, right?

 

[Anatoli]

This thread sucks the juice out of the Japanese language topics.

So many hours of Japanese could have been done.

 

[Chidoriashi]

ok I got to about page three but Im out of reading time for now.. so I will just put my two cents in.

Personally I really dont see a problem requiring people who want to renew their work visa after 3 years to have at least past the JLPT level 3 or something. It is really not that much of a stretch to do it and it demonstrates basic proficiency in the language. A colleague of mine came to Japan with no ability and after a year and a half passed the 3rd level test. I do think asking much more than level 3 could be kind of burdensome for some people, but hopefully it would lay ground work for people to just go on improving their japanese naturally as they continue to live here beyond 3 years.

I mean back home in the US i feel that English needs to be made the national language and immigrants who want to stay long term should not be catered to, and be required to have some proficiency. So I would be a hypocrite to say Japan should not implement this policy.

Asking for some proficiency is not so bad.. Now.. asking everyone to become fluent in 3 years and be able to read the newspaper without a dictionary would BS.....

 

[thatsme]

No, not again...not another misunderstanding. My reminder was for anyone harboring such an ambivilance towards their Japanese life that it is allowed it to spill over into a mistreatment of the locals.
In case you weren't aware, your posts, thatsme, are a pure joy to read. They are so inspiring in fact I really do want to become like you someday.

oops.
I guess I misunderstood you.
got it now!!!

 

[FrustratedDave]

I agree, make permanant resident applicants learn Japanese and the incentive other than not having to renew your visa every few years should be equal rights.
Ok now I have quit dreaming I will let you all discuss the topic!

 

[Pachipro]

Quote:If, however, you are a long-term single resident of Japan and cannot do the basics without a translator, then you should be denied an extension of your visa based on your ignorance and stupidity as, if you cannot even learn the basics of the country you plan on living in long-term, then you will be nothing but a burdon to society in general and probably can not add much to the country you are living in other than demand that they change to suit your needs.

You are contradicting yourself. Didn't you just write this?
Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all)

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I will repeat again, I believe if you have a Japanese spouse or hold a "responsible job" (whatever that may be classified as) and cannot speak Japanese and thus have a difficult time getting on with your daily life by not being able to conduct your daily business in Japanese, than you will probably not be deported or denied an extension of your visa if it ever comes to that (which I doubt).

On the other hand, if you are just a run-of-the-mill English teacher, single (or have a foreign spouse), care not about the language or country/culture and just want to stay there because it's "easy money" then you, if it comes to that extreme, may well be denied an extension and rightly so.

Will it ever come to this for any and all foreigners? I think not, but you never know what the Japanese government will do. For now it's just talk and I believe it is a "trial baloon" thrown out to gage public opinion.

However, I still hold to my belief that if you live there and want to remain there, one should at least take the time and effort to study the basics of the language and culture.

 

[Elizabeth]

There is nothing in all the articles nor in the history of immigration to support that. You are taking the MOJ bait by furthering the discussion.

There was discussion in the Japanese article of a "6 point system" used by Canada that weights language ability, proportional to other factors, as submitted in a personal history statement at the time of a work visa application for permanent residency. Language learning is also heavily considered in Britain, Germany and France. Be enterprising and look up the details yourself because this is the most plausible framework I have come across yet for modeling a uniquely Japanese policy.


外務省による と、カナダでは就労目的の永住者が査証申請時に提出する略歴で、語学力を含む６項目をポイント化し、総ポイ ント数に応じて許可。英国、ドイツ、フランスで語学能力を重視する移民政策を取っているという 。

 

[Iron Chef]

However, I still hold to my belief that if you live there and want to remain there, one should at least take the time and effort to study the basics of the language and culture.

I agree. If for no other reason than to enrich one's own experience while abroad. You get out of it what you put into it as the saying goes.

 

[ArmandV]

I agree. If for no other reason than to enrich one's own experience while abroad. You get out of it what you put into it as the saying goes.

I don't believe that anyone disagrees with this. The problem lies in the possibility that long-term residents may be forced into learning the language and taking some sort of test proving same in order to stay. As I said from the beginning, this seems to be antagonistic.

As it stands, it is a trial balloon and there are no specifics. The devil is in the details, should the government decides to pursue this.

 

[Glenski]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I will repeat again, I believe if you have a Japanese spouse or hold a "responsible job" (whatever that may be classified as) and cannot speak Japanese and thus have a difficult time getting on with your daily life by not being able to conduct your daily business in Japanese, than you will probably not be deported or denied an extension of your visa if it ever comes to that (which I doubt).

On the other hand, if you are just a run-of-the-mill English teacher, single (or have a foreign spouse), care not about the language or country/culture and just want to stay there because it's "easy money" then you, if it comes to that extreme, may well be denied an extension and rightly so.

You're trying to read the MOJ's mind. Ok, let's see about the next hypothetical. A person on spouse visa or PR thinks he doesn't have to learn much Japanese, that he can just coast on the system, and that he can make easy money here doing whatever. See? It's not so easy to classify. The MOJ is not going to consider this. They can't. People will lie.

"ME? Want to freeload on society??!! Heavens, NO! I want to stay longer and contribute to society..." (person then goes off to his easy-money job and life, laughing at the MOJ behind their backs that he has safely avoided taking any language test)

Wait and see who they want to give this test to and more on their reasons why.

Will it ever come to this for any and all foreigners? I think not, but you never know what the Japanese government will do.

Exactly what I have been saying. We just don't know.

There was discussion in the Japanese article of a "6 point system" used by Canada that weights language ability, proportional to other factors, as submitted in a personal history statement at the time of a work visa application for permanent residency. Language learning is also heavily considered in Britain, Germany and France. Be enterprising and look up the details yourself because this is the most plausible framework I have come across yet for modeling a uniquely Japanese policy.

Help me out here, Elizabeth. What sort of people does this talk about in Japan? Permanent resident status holders? Work visa holders? Who?

I am not the one who needs to be enterprising here. Because the article chose to discuss this point only in Japanese, it irks me. How are the people who cannot read Japanese (in other words, the ones who are potentially going to be tested) supposed to be fully informed? This is one of the points I made earlier. Incomplete translation for the sake of the people affected.

 

[Glenski]

I don't believe that anyone disagrees with this. The problem lies in the possibility that long-term residents may be forced into learning the language and taking some sort of test proving same in order to stay. As I said from the beginning, this seems to be antagonistic.
As it stands, it is a trial balloon and there are no specifics. The devil is in the details, should the government decides to pursue this.

Agreed, no matter who is involved in the testing. It's a stick, not a carrot.

 

[Elizabeth]

Help me out here, Elizabeth. What sort of people does this talk about in Japan? Permanent resident status holders? Work visa holders? Who?
I am not the one who needs to be enterprising here. Because the article chose to discuss this point only in Japanese, it irks me. How are the people who cannot read Japanese (in other words, the ones who are potentially going to be tested) supposed to be fully informed? This is one of the points I made earlier. Incomplete translation for the sake of the people affected.

All I can repeat is word for word what the article states as the information orochi, epigene and myself have already indicated -- which is that at various points the focus shifts from foreigners "staying long-term" to a more general "development/integration campaign" to get those on a work visa, students etc interested in the language and finally back to "long term residents" and workers again (drawn from the Canadian scheme).

Only the first sentence provides a specific link to the agenda the MOJ/MOFA study is set to undertake.
.
日本に長期滞在する外国人の入国や在留許可審査の際、(Foreigners staying long-term in Japan would presumably be tested at the time of entry (that's the "landing examination" -- obviously they are not applying for that status initially, so perhaps a test administered uniformly across all visa holders??) and again as part of the Residency Approval examination ?? --> ! Not to worry if it doesn't ring a bell term, this is I think either made up by the writer or MOJ/MOFA.

在留期間の更新、資格変更時 (Long term residents would be tested again for "improvement" in Japanese skills at the time of visa renewal or changes in status ??).

 

[Glenski]

All I can repeat is word for word what the article states as the information orochi, epigene and myself have already indicated -- which is that at various points the focus shifts from foreigners "staying long-term" to a more general "development/integration campaign" to get those on a work visa, students etc interested in the language and finally back to "long term residents" and workers again (drawn from the Canadian scheme).

And, as I have written, this is too vague especially with the next info below.

Only the first sentence provides a specific link to the agenda the MOJ/MOFA study is set to undertake.
.
窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堙俄?卍ｷﾅ?ﾃｺ窶佚伉催昶?堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾅ?Oﾂ坂?伉人窶堙娯?愿ｼﾂ坂?倪?堙｢ﾂ催昶?板ｯ窶ｹ窶凪?ｰﾃつ審ﾂ債ｸ窶堙個催崢、(Foreigners staying long-term in Japan would presumably be tested at the time of entry

Total B.S. or a horrible description by the MOJ and/or newspaper. (both of which I have already stated) It's B.S. because if you try to apply this description to all visa holders as you, epigene, orochi, etc. have suggested it means, then it's impossible to do. Simply put, nobody knows they are going to be a long-term resident upon their initial entry.

(that's the "landing examination" -- obviously they are not applying for that status initially,

What status? The article and you three people's interpretation is so wide-ranging and indiscriminate that there is no clear status.

so perhaps a test administered uniformly across all visa holders??)

Nope. Doesn't wash. A regular work visa holder on his first day does not know if he is a long-term resident. More than 90% of foreigners in Japan go home in 3 years.

and again as part of the Residency Approval examination ?? --> ! Not to worry if it doesn't ring a bell term, this is I think either made up by the writer or MOJ/MOFA.

Made up? Wonderful journalism if by the press, and even more B.S. if made up by the MOJ. Why are you people still insisting that even the Japanese translation has merit now?

ﾂ催昶?板ｯﾅ?ﾃｺﾅ?ﾃ披?堙個更ﾂ新ﾂ、ﾅｽ窶佛?i窶｢ﾃ渉更ﾅｽﾅｾ (Long term residents would be tested again for "improvement" in Japanese skills at the time of visa renewal or changes in status ??).

Oh, swell. Many work visas are only issued for one year. Even the official "long-term resident visa" can be issued for only 6 months. The B.S., ambiguities, and loopholes are piled so high you can see Mt. Fuji from them.

Let's stick a fork in this thread. It's done.

 

[pipokun]

...
The B.S., ambiguities, and loopholes are piled so high you can see Mt. Fuji from them.
...

What's wrong?
It is all ambiguous because they just started to consider necessity of the policies.

 

[Elizabeth]

Total B.S. or a horrible description by the MOJ and/or newspaper. (both of which I have already stated) It's B.S. because if you try to apply this description to all visa holders as you, epigene, orochi, etc. have suggested it means, then it's impossible to do. Simply put, nobody knows they are going to be a long-term resident upon their initial entry.

Yes, exactly. One possibility is that visa holders (excluding tourist, student etc). be routinely pre-tested and for those that don't end up appying for a long-term residency permit or getting a visa renewal -- whatever the status or criteria is set as -- no further follow-up examination is required. It isn't saying they are "long-term" at the time of entry. That would be absurd.

To me this sounds a lot fairer than a single pass/fail lose your job, take a pay cut, go home cut and dried standard for everyone...

Made up? Wonderful journalism if by the press, and even more B.S. if made up by the MOJ. Why are you people still insisting that even the Japanese translation has merit now?

Long term residency permit review process/exam could be referring to the test or a new class of measures or something already in place I'm not familiar with.

And by the way, please don't shoot the messenger on your rampage. Don't like it, then learn...