Gomen nasai or sumimasen ?

[Pierrot le Fou]

The almighty www.alc.co.jp gave us the following tidbits of marvelous insight:

• # すみません、お名前は何とおっしゃいましたっけ？
  I'm sorry, what was your name again?
  # すみません、お名前を失念してしまって。
  I'm sorry. I've forgotten your name.
  # すみません、お名前を忘れてしまって。
  I'm sorry. I've forgotten your name.

All with sumimasen.

As for gomen nasai...

• # ごめんなさい
  sorry 'bout that

Giving some food for thought to those of you saying that gomen nasai sounds childish (I agree).

Then again, they also have name-asking with 失礼ですが

• # 失礼ですが、お名前は？
  Excuse me, may I have [ask] your name, please?
  # あなたのお名前は？／どちら様でしょうか？／失礼ですが、お名前を頂けますでしょうか。
  May I have your name(, please)?

And if that weren't enough, they even have the final word to this conversation:

• # こう言っては失礼ですが、この会話は少し奇妙になっています。
  If you don't mind my saying so, this conversation is getting a little strange.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Better read the thread again... No one is saying that in the OP situation that "gomenasai" should be used???

# すみません、お名前は何とおっしゃいましたっけ？
I'm sorry, what was your name again?
# すみません、お名前を失念してしまって。
I'm sorry. I've forgotten your name.
# すみません、お名前を忘れてしまって。
I'm sorry. I've forgotten your name.

Great examples... I wouldn't recomend useing one of them for the OP's situation ,but thats just me.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Th
こう言っては失礼ですが、この会話は少し奇妙になって います。
If you don't mind my saying so, this conversation is getting a little strange.

Great stuff Pierrot le Fou!

That would be a comment based on what you have told them right?

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

If I were the OP, I'd simply ask 名前は何やったケ？ because I don't care much for formality, and it's a bento guy (presumably) overseas. Actually, I'd probably just speak to him in English. Politeness is boring.

(save at work where you have to be polite, with shopkeeps or the like, you get to be the customer and don't have to be agonizingly polite -- only politely polite)

 

[FrustratedDave]

If I were the OP, I'd simply ask 名前は何やったケ？ because I don't care much for formality, and it's a bento guy (presumably) overseas. Actually, I'd probably just speak to him in English. Politeness is boring.

(save at work where you have to be polite, with shopkeeps or the like, you get to be the customer and don't have to be agonizingly polite -- only politely polite)

Always good to go with politeness, especially when the OP is obviously concerned about it and if he wanted to ask in English I doubt he would have posted here. And yes I know Hyogo ben well.

Personally I would would say "ごめん、名前をもう一度教えてくれへんか？" but unfortunately Hyougo ben or Osaka ben is used every where. So I suggest you at least make an effort to understand that.

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

Frustrated Dave, what are you talking about? You give a Kansai-ben response as what you would say, but then say that unfortunately it's spoken everywhere? And that I should understand that? And that my response was Hyogo-ben? Huh?

There is no 'right answer' to the OP's question. There are a thousand different ways to ask, each carries a different connotation, and regardless of which he uses, he gets leeway because he's not Japanese and doesn't understand the social conventions and relative hierarchy involved in the Bento-business.

I've presented a bunch of different options, both serious and joking, and tried to address the question. What exactly are you getting passive aggressive about here?

 

[FrustratedDave]

If you could see past your attitude you could possibly see by the context that there supposed to be a "not" in this sentence, especially with unfortunately in the sentence

but unfortunately Hyougo ben or Osaka ben is used every where.

I was implying that YOU living in Hyougo ken were using the dialect that is spoken there and that is , kansai ben and has a very heavy influence on that dialect. And just for the record it is "名前は何やったっケ？" not how you said it as
"名前は何やったケ？" , so if you are going to insist that there are hundreds of ways of asking, get off your high horse realise that I am only trying to help. Or should I just keep on fixing your mistakes in grammer in your statements and then have you make an excuse that is was a joke and you weren't being serious?
The other problem is ,when is what you are saying a joke and when is it serious? I for one did not see your sentence "大変ご迷惑をかけますが、お名前を忘れてしまいました。申し訳御座いませんでした。" as a joke, and I find it very hard to believe if a beginer would too. posting in this section is about learning, not to make jokes to possibly confuse the OP or others who are reading the thread.

This is not a problem in reagards to a single bento operator ,but more so a question towards how to ask people in nice way or the hierarchy involved in the in the real world not necessarily the bento business. Sure if the OP didn't give a crap about what the guy thought of him ,would he go to the trouble of asking for help? I don't know , only the OP would know that. And with the "he is a gaijin" , all is forgiven attitude ,how is anyone suppossed to be taken seriously. Politeness goes a long way , Especially over here as it is seen ,or should I say you can be judged by what you say even if the other party does not say so.

So whats my problem?

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

If you could see past your attitude you could possibly see by the context that there supposed to be a "not" in this sentence, especially with unfortunately in the sentence I was implying that YOU living in Hyougo ken were using the dialect that is spoken there and that is , kansai ben and has a very heavy influence on that dialect. And just for the record it is "名前は何やったっケ？" not how you said it as
"名前は何やったケ？" , so if you are going to insist that there are hundreds of ways of asking, get off your high horse realise that I am only trying to help. Or should I just keep on fixing your mistakes in grammar in your statements and then have you make an excuse that is was a joke and you weren't being serious?

The other problem is ,when is what you are saying a joke and when is it serious? I for one did not see your sentence "大変ご迷惑をかけますが、お名前を忘れてしまいましあ ｽ。申し訳御座いませんでした。" as a joke, and I find it very hard to believe if a beginner would too. posting in this section is about learning, not to make jokes to possibly confuse the OP or others who are reading the thread.

This is not a problem in regards to a single bento operator ,but more so a question towards how to ask people in nice way or the hierarchy involved in the in the real world not necessarily the bento business. Sure if the OP didn't give a crap about what the guy thought of him ,would he go to the trouble of asking for help? I don't know , only the OP would know that. And with the "he is a gaijin" , all is forgiven attitude ,how is anyone supposed to be taken seriously. Politeness goes a long way , Especially over here as it is seen ,or should I say you can be judged by what you say even if the other party does not say so.

So whats my problem?

First the facts.

My original post was pretty obviously in gest. If you'd read it again you'd likely realize that.

"I would recommend against 申し訳御座いません unless you somehow killed his cat and want to ask his name to write on the card to apologize for his forgiveness."
Is that the mark of a serious post?

"If you want to go entirely overboard, then you can go with the aforementioned things, or something like 大変ご迷惑をかけますが、お名前を忘れてしまいました 。申し訳御座いませんでした。 followed by a massively long and drawn out bow. It helps if your eyes look like you are saddened by your own failures, and take full responsibility with those few words."
Does this sound like I'm taking myself too seriously or as an authority?

Furthermore, I learned my Japanese in Kyoto prefecture between Kyoto and Osaka -- not in Hyogo as you assumed. You also assume that Osaka-ben/Kansai-ben is not understood across the country despite it being very prevalent on TV. Do I need to provide a list of TV personalities from Kansai for you to prove it? Or will you perhaps take my word on it?

Why do you decide to be condescending to others? Did I fail to show you the proper respect? Did I not include enough qualifiers into my original posts to satisfy you? What makes you assume that やったっケ vs. やったケ isn't a regional difference or a typo? Do you regularly see it written across the various dialects and take notes to critique people?

Were I being snotty, or trying to insult you, or otherwise being rude to you, then perhaps I could understand your response. As it is, it seems to me like you have a chip on your shoulder that has little to do with anything I said.

 

[nhk9]

Firstly your sentence is how do you put it... very English and is wrong in the sense of speaking natural Japanese, not grammer.
If you were going for an effect of what you were implying, you would not use the words "I forgot your name", AT ALL. "大変失礼ですが、もう一度お名前を教えて頂きませんか？""taihen shitsurei desu ga, mou ichido onamae wo oshiete itadakimasenka?" This would more appropriate than your sentence.
And it would also be more appropriate to use "大変ご迷惑をかけしますが" not "大変ご迷惑をかけますが" when useing this line of words.
Asking for a name again can be an unpleasent experience, the main thing is that you show sencerity if you have not mastered the language and I don't think you will have any problems at all.

If you were going for an effect of what you were implying, you would not use the words "I forgot your name", AT ALL. "大変失礼ですが、もう一度お名前を教えて頂きませんか？""taihen shitsurei desu ga, mou ichido onamae wo oshiete itadakimasenka?"

I know you are frustrated, Dave. For your record, instead of お名前を教えて頂きませんか? it should be お名前を教えて頂けませんか。 (fyi, the ? mark is not used in standard Japanese)

This would more appropriate than your sentence.
And it would also be more appropriate to use "大変ご迷惑をかけしますが" not "大変ご迷惑をかけますが" when useing this line of words.

I am afraid that you are incorrect, Dave. 大変ご迷惑をかけしますが should be 大変ご迷惑をおかけしますが。 But even then it would not be natural, since usually this phrase ends with a ました、or しています・しております

大変ご迷惑をおかけしてしまいましたが would sound better, don't you think so?

 

[FrustratedDave]

I know you are frustrated, Dave. For your record, instead of お名前を教えて頂きませんか? it should be お名前を教えて頂けませんか。 (fyi, the ? mark is not used in standard Japanese)

Onviously a typo on my part, refer to one of my first posts below where it was written correctly.

Or you could go one step further,
申し訳ございませんが、もう一度お名前を頂戴頂けませんか？

As for the ?, it is used to emphasize the fact that it is a question for the pure and simple fact that people are learning Japanese, Just like using the "quote" marks.

I am afraid that you are incorrect, Dave. 大変ご迷惑をかけしますが should be 大変ご迷惑をおかけしますが。 But even then it would not be natural, since usually this phrase ends with a ました、or しています・しております
大変ご迷惑をおかけしてしまいましたが would sound better, don't you think so?

No, I am afraid it is not. In this instance " 大変ご迷惑をかけしますが" is more natural and appropriate. The other way is "大変ご迷惑をかけしておりますがが" and is used far more than "しています" ,but "大変ご迷惑をかけしておりますがが" has the same intentions as "大変ご迷惑をかけしますが". But you are very much wrong if you think this phrase usually ends in "ました". It will depend on the situation at hand as to which is used and cannot be said that one way is used more than the other (In regards to しますor ました).If you don't believe me I guess you better check with a native speaker.

 

[FrustratedDave]

First the facts.
My original post was pretty obviously in gest. If you'd read it again you'd likely realize that.
"I would recommend against 申し訳御座いません unless you somehow killed his cat and want to ask his name to write on the card to apologize for his forgiveness."
Is that the mark of a serious post?
"If you want to go entirely overboard, then you can go with the aforementioned things, or something like 大変ご迷惑をかけますが、お名前を忘れてしまいました。申し訳御座いませんでした。 followed by a massively long and drawn out bow. It helps if your eyes look like you are saddened by your own failures, and take full responsibility with those few words."
Does this sound like I'm taking myself too seriously or as an authority?
Furthermore, I learned my Japanese in Kyoto prefecture between Kyoto and Osaka -- not in Hyogo as you assumed. You also assume that Osaka-ben/Kansai-ben is not understood across the country despite it being very prevalent on TV. Do I need to provide a list of TV personalities from Kansai for you to prove it? Or will you perhaps take my word on it?
Why do you decide to be condescending to others? Did I fail to show you the proper respect? Did I not include enough qualifiers into my original posts to satisfy you? What makes you assume that やったっケ vs. やったケ isn't a regional difference or a typo? Do you regularly see it written across the various dialects and take notes to critique people?
Were I being snotty, or trying to insult you, or otherwise being rude to you, then perhaps I could understand your response. As it is, it seems to me like you have a chip on your shoulder that has little to do with anything I said.

Now , what I said was that it was not used everywhere, don't go and put words in my mouth ,I never said it was not understandable by most people. Sure Kansai ben is spoken on TV and in general it is understood to a certain degree that is(hense the reason for subtittles), but the fact remain that when someone is learning Japanese that hyoujyun go is the prefered dialect to be learning. That is what I asked you ,(empasize the ask part), to consider b/c of that reason.

From you statement of 名前は何やったケ shows that you are using kansai ben, whether you reside in hyougo ken now or spent your early years in Kyoto, the fact remains that both those places use kasai ben( along with dialect that is unique to that area) . I do regulary do business in both Hyougo and Kyoto so I am very familiar with the expressions in both places. As やったっケ vs. やったケ, I will leave that up to you to figure out, b/c if I say something I must be trying to put you down.

As for you little joke, I forgot I was suppossed to read the sarcasim in that statement, I maybe have been here too long ,but I just didn't get it. Sorry for that.

You said "Why do you decide to be condescending to others?" hhhhmmmmm..... correcting someone when they make a mistake must be condescending, if that were in fact the case then how would anyone know when they are wrong. Or could it possibly be that it was you who was not happy with my corrections or answers? I have stayed in the same line of thinking and have not gone out of my way to try to make you feel bad, however you seem to have taken it that way.

Anyway I will it up to you guys, as I don't really care what anyone thinks of me, if I helped someone out than thats all I wanted to do. I may even have helped you Pierrot le Fou, but only you will know that .

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

Correcting someone when they make a mistake is a-okay with me. I invite it.

Correcting someone does not involve "You're wrong" and "That's too English" and "This is how you should say it" without an explanation. Correcting someone does not involve "I will leave that up to you [to figure out]" and "I'm right because I do business both places regularly."

You are being pompous and condescending, and refuse to concede as much. When someon disagrees (as nhk9 did), you insist that they discuss it with a native speaker rather than explaining why it's incorrect.

Perhaps if you spent as much time on your English as your Japanese, you wouldn't come off like someone tooting his own horn and bolstering his image at the expense of others'.

 

[JasonS]

Good to hear everything went well. I hope after all that trying to remember the sentence in Japanese, that you remembered his name this time round!LOL

I probably repeated his name about 30 times before my food was ready, so yes, I should remember it this time.


As to the intent of my original post.... I would like to spend a couple weeks in Japan next year, and the more I can learn the better. The bento guy is one of the few people I know (other than my tutor) who I can practice Japanese with, so I think it'd be nice to greet him by name when I talk to him.

I've always tried to be polite to everyone, whether they run a food cart or own the company I work at. If I can be polite to people in their own language when I'm a visitor in their country, great! If I don't know the right way to handle a situation, I'll probably be excused because I'm a gaijin, but I'll still try.

So all of the posts have been helpful to an extent. (Even if I can't read kanji and it takes 5 minutes to translate a few words in hiragana )

 

[FrustratedDave]

Correcting someone when they make a mistake is a-okay with me. I invite it.
Correcting someone does not involve "You're wrong" and "That's too English" and "This is how you should say it" without an explanation. Correcting someone does not involve "I will leave that up to you [to figure out]" and "I'm right because I do business both places regularly."
You are being pompous and condescending, and refuse to concede as much. When someon disagrees (as nhk9 did), you insist that they discuss it with a native speaker rather than explaining why it's incorrect.

And have I not given explanations? From your example with Nhk9, Is the writting in Bold below not an explanation, before I suggested him to check with a native?

No, I am afraid it is not. In this instance " 大変ご迷惑をかけしますが" is more natural and appropriate. The other way is "大変ご迷惑をかけしておりますがが" and is used far more than "しています" ,but "大変ご迷惑をかけしておりますがが" has the same intentions as "大変ご迷惑をかけしますが". But you are very much wrong if you think this phrase usually ends in "ました". It will depend on the situation at hand as to which is used and cannot be said that one way is used more than the other (In regards to しますor ました).If you don't believe me I guess you better check with a native speaker.

If it is not than I don't know what else I have to provide, please inform me. Here is that post in full that you speak of, I explained clearly why it was not suitable for the situation at hand, please read again below.

Frustrateddave
Firstly your sentence is how do you put it... very English and is wrong in the sense of speaking natural Japanese, not grammer.
If you were going for an effect of what you were implying, you would not use the words "I forgot your name", AT ALL. "大変失礼ですが、もう一度お名前を教えて頂きません か？""taihen shitsurei desu ga, mou ichido onamae wo oshiete itadakimasenka?" This would more appropriate than your sentence.
And it would also be more appropriate to use "大変ご迷惑をかけしますが" not "大変ご迷惑をかけますが" when useing this line of words.
Asking for a name again can be an unpleasent experience, the main thing is that you show sencerity if you have not mastered the language and I don't think you will have any problems at all.

If you did indeed accept that the fact I was helping you, you may have asked your self why it is not appropriate to say that you have forgot someones name in certain situations.

Perhaps if you spent as much time on your English as your Japanese, you wouldn't come off like someone tooting his own horn and bolstering his image at the expense of others'.

Ha,Ha,Ha... I am trying to bolster my image? LOL Where did you get that one from. Buddy its the internet, there are no prizes or competions, I don't care what you or anyone thinks, like I said I am only posting to help those like I was helped when I was starting out.


BTW, what area are you talking about that uses this やったケ expression, I would love to know.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I probably repeated his name about 30 times before my food was ready, so yes, I should remember it this time.
As to the intent of my original post.... I would like to spend a couple weeks in Japan next year, and the more I can learn the better. The bento guy is one of the few people I know (other than my tutor) who I can practice Japanese with, so I think it'd be nice to greet him by name when I talk to him.
I've always tried to be polite to everyone, whether they run a food cart or own the company I work at. If I can be polite to people in their own language when I'm a visitor in their country, great! If I don't know the right way to handle a situation, I'll probably be excused because I'm a gaijin, but I'll still try.
So all of the posts have been helpful to an extent. (Even if I can't read kanji and it takes 5 minutes to translate a few words in hiragana )

Sorry for the derail Jason and all the kanji, sometimes it can be easier to write that way. It sounds like you have a plan and I admire you wanting to study before comming here, I know it helped me out a lot, as I was able to have a more fun when I got here ,b/c I was able to understand a little bit of Japanese to get me by. Goodluck.

 

[nhk9]

Onviously a typo on my part, refer to one of my first posts below where it was written correctly.

As for the ?, it is used to emphasize the fact that it is a question for the pure and simple fact that people are learning Japanese, Just like using the "quote" marks.

No, I am afraid it is not. In this instance " 大変ご迷惑をかけしますが" is more natural and appropriate. The other way is "大変ご迷惑をかけしておりますがが" and is used far more than "しています" ,but "大変ご迷惑をかけしておりますがが" has the same intentions as "大変ご迷惑をかけしますが". But you are very much wrong if you think this phrase usually ends in "ました". It will depend on the situation at hand as to which is used and cannot be said that one way is used more than the other (In regards to しますor ました).If you don't believe me I guess you better check with a native speaker.

You see, I wasn't saying having "masu" ending in this phrase is wrong, just that for me, it's not heard as often. We will have to consult a third party on this, since both you and I are not native speakers.



But what's important is the fact that you missed out the key point of what I was trying to say. I wrote,

I am afraid that you are incorrect, Dave. 大変ご迷惑をかけしますが should be 大変ご迷惑をおかけしますが。

It seems like you had this error in more than one of your posts.

 

[nhk9]

I know you are frustrated, Dave. For your record, instead of お名前を教えて頂きませんか? it should be お名前を教えて頂けませんか。 (fyi, the ? mark is not used in standard Japanese)

Onviously a typo on my part, refer to one of my first posts below where it was written correctly.

Or you could go one step further,
申し訳ございませんが、もう一度お名前を頂戴頂けませんか？

Dave,

I know you are trying to be helpful in trying to point out the mistakes of others that you think are mistakes. I have seen several "typos" in your messages, especially in your examples or in your demonstration of your knowledge of the language. I know that nobody is perfect and I myself make mistakes often too. But if you are gonna claim that others are "plainly wrong" etc., then obviously others expect you to be an authority on this matter. However, if you are to constantly include 'typos' and/or errors in your examples and posts, then your credibility will be questioned.

Just imagine a beginner reading your posts and they see both "itadakimasenka" and "itadakemasenka" in your posts, what do you think they would think?

 

[Charles Barkley]

Just imagine a beginner reading your posts and they see both "itadakimasenka" and "itadakemasenka" in your posts, what do you think they would think?

A beginner? He'd probably wonder why dave finished eating two different meals. Anyway, doesn't some of this kind of stuff seem doable over PM, rather than in a beginner's thread about apologizing for forgetting a vendor's name?

 

[FrustratedDave]

It seems like you had this error in more than one of your posts.

Yes I was thinking of this when I was writting it, "大変ご迷惑を,おかけしますが" I wasn't paying attention. Thanks for the pickup.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Just imagine a beginner reading your posts and they see both "itadakimasenka" and "itadakemasenka" in your posts, what do you think they would think?

The point is this stuff should be pointed out, everyone makes typos.
And if they would say so much instead of arguing trhe point, there would be no problem at all.

You see that is the problem, everyone is too quick to reject criticism and think that it is their ability being questioned. I am not perfect and I won't pretend to be, but I will bring something to someones attention if needs be.

 

[Elizabeth]

"Gomennasai" and "sumimasen" can be used interchangeably in most cases to apologize for a mistake committed.
I can't figure out why your Japanese tutor claimed that use of "gomennasai" is childish. Assuming that your tutor is a native speaker, I suspect that the claim of childishness is based on some set of circumstances that had been apparent when she was explaining it and that we have no knowledge of at this moment.

I am not aware of "gomennasai" being used any more by women or children than men (although it may be regionally or have been true in the past). On the other hand, it isn't a word likely to be heard in a purely masculine environment like a construction site or at a sporting match, etc.

Treating your superiors to their due respect in Japanese is never a straightforward call. In this case, there are also a wide range of intonations and inflections that can sound right with "gomennasai" "sumimasen desuga" or "shittsurei desuga" depending on the circumstances that are practically impossible to convey well online.

The situation with the vendor, sidetracked for most of this discussion, could comfortably accomodate any of the above three suggestions.

 

[Elizabeth]

Many thanks to everyone who responded.

I went with Elizabeth's suggestion:

"Shitsurei desuga, onamae wo mou ichi dou onegai shimasu"

Pretty sure I got the whole sentence right, but at least he understood what I was asking if I did forget something.

Arigatoo gozaimashita!

Douitashimashite. Yoku dekita ! (Job well done ! )

If you want to practice also asking them to write down their name that would be : Shitsurei desuga, kaite itadakemasenka.

Ganbattene!

 

[Elizabeth]

The almighty www.alc.co.jp gave us the following tidbits of marvelous insight:

• # すみません、お名前は何とおっしゃいましたっけ？
  I'm sorry, what was your name again?
  # すみません、お名前を失念してしまって。
  I'm sorry. I've forgotten your name.
  # すみません、お名前を忘れてしまって。
  I'm sorry. I've forgotten your name.

These are probably from a class reunion towards someone the speaker hadn't seen for ten years. After a few days or couple weeks it obviously doesn't quite transmit the same intended sense of interest and mutual good will -- not to mention bode well for the obento order.

As for gomen nasai...

• # ごめんなさい
  sorry 'bout that

Giving some food for thought to those of you saying that gomen nasai sounds childish (I agree).

So this is a concession that rude=childish ?? Could as easily have subsituted すみません！

 

[michaelkane]

kore forum-wa daisuki desu.

 

[SushiShin]

so sumimasen and gomen nasai and shitsurei shimashita? are those correct? if you are nervous for example you are an actor and you forgot your line, whats the best word to say? Sumimasen or gomen gomen or shitsurei...

i always use sumimasen, althoug i never stood still why i say it