Gomen nasai or sumimasen ?

[JasonS]

There is a Japanese food cart where I've started buying lunch a couple times a week. The owner and I finally exchanged introductions a couple weeks back, but I have a terrible memory when it comes to names, and as usual, I've forgotten his name.

When I admit to him that I've forgotten his name, and ask for it again, should I use "gomen nasai" or "sumimasen"? Is one way of apologizing more appropriate or more common than the other for instances like this?

My Japanese tutor once made the comment that gomen nasai is more childish. I'm not quite sure what she means by "childish", and I didn't feel like pressing her on it. She's having me use sumimasen during lessons instead of gomen nasai. Is gomen nasai not used often by adults?
Thanks!

 

[epigene]

"Gomennasai" and "sumimasen" can be used interchangeably in most cases to apologize for a mistake committed.

I can't figure out why your Japanese tutor claimed that use of "gomennasai" is childish. Assuming that your tutor is a native speaker, I suspect that the claim of childishness is based on some set of circumstances that had been apparent when she was explaining it and that we have no knowledge of at this moment. So, I can't comment on that.

It must be noted, however, that overuse of "gomennasai" is frowned upon (especially by people with strong sense of pride like someone I know ) as conceding too easily to apologize when you're actually not at fault.

In your case, you can use both if you want to express apology for not remembering the lunch vendor's name. However, if you just want to attract the person's attention, "sumimasen" should be used.

Hope this answers your question! I've just written out my rambling thoughts on your inquiry!

 

[kenasto]

Sumimasen is formal, gomen nasai informal. In formal situation (like business) using "gomen nasai" would indeed sound childish or inappropriate. On the other hand, within a family or with your partner or friends, sumimasen sounds too formal. In many other situations of daily life, both are OK, but gomen nasai will always sound more informal. Please correct me if anyone knows anything else.

 

[epigene]

Sumimasen is formal, gomen nasai informal. In formal situation (like business) using "gomen nasai" would indeed sound childish or inappropriate. On the other hand, within a family or with your partner or friends, sumimasen sounds too formal. In many other situations of daily life, both are OK, but gomen nasai will always sound more informal. Please correct me if anyone knows anything else.

Sorry, but incorrect.

They cannot be separated into "formal" and "informal" as such. They can become "childish" or "inappropriate" depending on circumstances. They can be both be used in business as well, although there may be cases where they are inappropriate.

How they are used are learned from practice, and there are no absolute rules on when one is used and the other is not, except for the most obvious ones that I mentioned earlier.

 

[Elizabeth]

In your case, you can use both if you want to express apology for not remembering the lunch vendor's name. However, if you just want to attract the person's attention, "sumimasen" should be used.

OK, OK this is cheating of the worst kind...but seriously these are two ways I would think of phrasing it :

失礼ですが、お名前をもう一度お願いできますか？」「もう一度お名前をお聞かせ願えますか？」

 

[epigene]

OK, OK this is cheating of the worst kind...but seriously these are two ways I would think of phrasing it :

失礼ですが、お名前をもう一度お願いできますか？」「もう一度お名前をお聞かせ願えますか？」

Right, Elizabeth! But, here I was thinking of how to manage only with "gomennasai" and "suimasen."

 

[FrustratedDave]

失礼ですが、お名前をもう一度お願いできますか？」「 もう一度お名前をお聞かせ願えますか？」

Or you could go one step further,
申し訳ございませんが、もう一度お名前を頂戴頂けませ んか？

 

[Elizabeth]

Right, Elizabeth! But, here I was thinking of how to manage only with "gomennasai" and "suimasen."

I'm really not trying to evade it either, just expanding the pie a little before we divide it.


And anyway, it sounds good to me since isn't "shitsurei" often very appropriate in the context of asking a name ?

 

[JasonS]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I should have mentioned at the start that my hiragana and katakana knowledge is still pretty limited, and I can't read kanji at all. Gomennasai!

Epigene - Yes, my tutor is a native speaker. I had simply asked for more clarification on the difference between "gomennasai" and "sumimasen", and she said one was childish. I was a little surprised at that explanation, so I left it at that.

I do know of the phrase "shitsurei shimasu", but only as another way to say "excuse me". Is it more appropriate to begin with that phrase when asking someone to remind me what their name is?

Thanks again!

 

[FrustratedDave]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I do know of the phrase "shitsurei shimasu", but only as another way to say "excuse me". Is it more appropriate to begin with that phrase when asking someone to remind me what their name is?
Thanks again!

"Shiturei shimasu" or "shiturei desu ga" is probably one of the better ways to go, especialy when asking someone for their name. It is probably used over the phone a bit more. However it will depend on the situation as to what you use and as I pointed out earlier you can also enter a sentence when you could possibly offend the other party with "moushiwake gozaimasen".

 

[undrentide]

I do know of the phrase "shitsurei shimasu", but only as another way to say "excuse me". Is it more appropriate to begin with that phrase when asking someone to remind me what their name is?

If you want to say only "excuse me" then "shitsurei shimasu" is appropriate.
But if you want to say more than that, like "excuse me, but could you please..." then "shitsurei shimasu" sounds awkward - maybe because it is self-contained.

In that case, the one Dave suggested "shitsurei desu ga," is the most appropriate.
"Shitsurei desu ga" has connotation such as "I know I'm being rude, but..."

 

[kenasto]

>Sorry, but incorrect.
Isn't this statement a little exaggerated? Formal and informal might not be the 2 perfect categories to put them into, but sumimasen is indeed more often used in formal situations like business whereas gomen nasai is used more often in informal situations. For for me when I was a beginner this rule (which I was taught by Japanese natives) was helpful.

 

[FrustratedDave]

>Sorry, but incorrect.
Isn't this statement a little exaggerated? Formal and informal might not be the 2 perfect categories to put them into, but sumimasen is indeed more often used in formal situations like business whereas gomen nasai is used more often in informal situations. For for me when I was a beginner this rule (which I was taught by Japanese natives) was helpful.

No it is not.

Are you currently conducting business here in Japan? "Sumimasen" and "Gomenasai" can be equaly effect is a business situation and depending on the situation "gomenasai" can actualy be the word of choice, in no way does it sound childish. Of corse "sumimasen deshita" is another word used a lot is business dealings. What epigene said is entirely correct and these two words can not be seperated and lumped into a certain group.

Could you have possibly misunderstood what they were actualy trying to say? It is difficult to explain something to a beginner and have them understand correctly or completely. I know that I have looked back on my notes on more than one occasion only to find that at that time I had misunderstood what was being said. Also not everyone(in regards to Japanese) has had a lot of experience in the business world.

 

[nice gaijin]

"gomen" by itself can be a clipped apology, far less polite than gomen nasai or sumimasen, but the latter two seem to be nearly interchangeable.

 

[Elizabeth]

Thanks for the responses so far.
I should have mentioned at the start that my hiragana and katakana knowledge is still pretty limited, and I can't read kanji at all. Gomennasai!

Without knowing how names were given or introductions exchanged originally I can't say with certainty if "shitsurei desuga" is appropriate or not. From the perspective of a beginner with limited vocabulary and range of nuance asking the question with a grammatical but rather blunt "Mou ichi dou namae wa (nan desuka?/nan to iimasuka?) etc. it may be too polite for your needs.


"Shitsurei desuga, mou ichi dou onamae wo oshiete kudasai" (Oshiete itadakimasenka?) is formal enough that it would be no problem for relations with a food vendor.

Shitsurei desuga, onamae wo mou ichi dou onegai shimasu (onegai dekimasuka?) is even easier/more natural and appropriate in my judgement.

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

Sumimasen is a 'light' apology. It's for things like bumping into someone on a crowded train, or the like. It doesn't strike me as a 'real' apology so much as an 'excuse me'. 'Gomen Nasai' is an apology, but it's a pretty casual one. It's like 'begging your pardon' and isn't very business-esque. It depends on your relationship with the person, how bad you feel about it, and the like. I would recommend against 申し訳御座いません unless you somehow killed his cat and want to ask his name to write on the card to apologize for his forgiveness.

Perhaps, as has been mentioned, 失礼ですが… (shitsurei desu ga - 'I know this is rude, but...') is best.

If you want to go entirely overboard, then you can go with the aforementioned things, or something like 大変ご迷惑をかけますが、お名前を忘れてしまいました。申し訳御座いませんでした。 followed by a massively long and drawn out bow. It helps if your eyes look like you are saddened by your own failures, and take full responsibility with those few words.

Or, y'know, just refer to him as 店長 (tencho) or something instead. Y'know, so you don't need to worry about his name ever at all again.

I have about 40 acquaintances who are all (shockingly enough) named マスター. Go figure!

 

[FrustratedDave]

If you want to go entirely overboard, then you can go with the aforementioned things, or something like 大変ご迷惑をかけますが、お名前を忘れてしまいました 。申し訳御座いませんでした。 followed by a massively long and drawn out bow. It helps if your eyes look like you are saddened by your own failures, and take full responsibility with those few words.
Or, y'know, just refer to him as 店長 (tencho) or something instead. Y'know, so you don't need to worry about his name ever at all again.
I have about 40 acquaintances who are all (shockingly enough) named マスター. Go figure!

Firstly your sentence is how do you put it... very English and is wrong in the sense of speaking natural Japanese, not grammar.
If you were going for an effect of what you were implying, you would not use the words "I forgot your name", AT ALL. "大変失礼ですが、もう一度お名前を教えて頂きません か？""taihen shitsurei desu ga, mou ichido onamae wo oshiete itadakimasenka?" This would more appropriate than your sentence.
And it would also be more appropriate to use "大変ご迷惑をかけしますが" not "大変ご迷惑をかけますが" when using this line of words.
Asking for a name again can be an unpleasant experience, the main thing is that you show sincerity if you have not mastered the language and I don't think you will have any problems at all.

 

[kenasto]

About.com puts it this way:

# "Sumimasen" is a little more formal than "Gomennasai."

# When you apologize to the higher or the senior, "Sumimasen" is used in general.

# Among the family members or close friends, it is common to use "Gomennasai." "Gomen ne" or "Gomen" can be used in a more casual case.

#...when speaking with superiors or people with whom one is not very close, "Sumimasen" or "Moushiwake arimasen" are used instead, since "Gomennasi" can have a childish ring to it.

These Japanese Apology Words Come With Nuances

 

[FrustratedDave]

About.com puts it this way:

# "Sumimasen" is a little more formal than "Gomennasai."

# When you apologize to the higher or the senior, "Sumimasen" is used in general.

# Among the family members or close friends, it is common to use "Gomennasai." "Gomen ne" or "Gomen" can be used in a more casual case.

#...when speaking with superiors or people with whom one is not very close, "Sumimasen" or "Moushiwake arimasen" are used instead, since "Gomennasi" can have a childish ring to it.

These Japanese Apology Words Come With Nuances

What about this one Kensato... "suman" does not say anything on this or a few other informal appologies on that site. Why not ? If this site is indeed the be all to end all?

Why I am saying this is b/c you are treating that site as it is gospel, get out in the business world and see what is really used on a daily basis.

Oh and BTW, I hear many a person saying gomenasi to his/her senior or superior here at work all the time.

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

I do fully admit my keigo isn't up to par for becoming a JR announcer or the like, but my comment was fully in gest in regards to the super-formal apology. Did you really feel, by reading my post, that I felt that was a legitimate statement to make when you'd forgotten someone's name?

 

[FrustratedDave]

I did not know what your intentions were with the statement, I just pointed out that it is not the right way to say something like that. Some people do read these posts and take them literally, hense the reason for correction.

Off topic, sounds like you have an interesting Job.

 

[Elizabeth]

Oh and BTW, I hear many a person saying gomenasi to his/her senior or superior here at work all the time.

Yeah, I've been told by more than one Japanese friends that to them "gomen nasai" actually sounds heavier and more profound than "sumimasen (deshita)." Maybe because it is thrown around less casually and thus has preserved more of the originally intended sincerity.


Kensatosan : Just goes to show once again you should not believe everything you read -- especially Japanese learning materials on the internet....

 

[kenasto]

I cited the site because I was checking what others think about it, I didn't believe it a priori. In the two years that I have been working here in Tokyo (in a large Japanese corporation) I hear sumimasen more often in formal situations and gomen nasai more often in casual situations.

＞"gomen nasai" actually sounds heavier and more profound than "sumimasen I agree to that and use it this way. But I wouldn't use it in front of a client.

Quite a few people believe sumimasen is more formal than gomen naisai.
Using the Question Marker - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide

Interesting, that the concepts of these two expressions are so different among people.

 

[JasonS]

Many thanks to everyone who responded.

I went with Elizabeth's suggestion:

"Shitsurei desuga, onamae wo mou ichi dou onegai shimasu"

Pretty sure I got the whole sentence right, but at least he understood what I was asking if I did forget something.

Arigatoo gozaimashita!

 

[FrustratedDave]

I cited the site because I was checking what others think about it, I didn't believe it a priori. In the two years that I have been working here in Tokyo (in a large Japanese corporation) I hear sumimasen more often in formal situations and gomen nasai more often in casual situations.

ﾂ≫??gomen nasai" actually sounds heavier and more profound than "sumimasenﾂ I agree to that and use it this way. But I wouldn't use it in front of a client.

Quite a few people believe sumimasen is more formal than gomen naisai.
Using the Question Marker - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide
myhappinessproject.com

Interesting, that the concepts of these two expressions are so different among people.

I think the word you are looking for is "appropriate", like it has been said before it would be very hard to classify these two words in the sense of one being more formal than the other. There are situations that call for each word to be used and neither can considered in a general rule like is being suggested . You have to judge the situation and use what is appropriate.

And yes "sumimasen" can tend to be used more than "gomenasai" in an intial bussiness dealing, but that is not the point some us are trying to get across.

Use what you feel comfortable with and when you have more experience expand your vocabulary as you will be better from it.

Many thanks to everyone who responded.
I went with Elizabeth's suggestion:
"Shitsurei desuga, onamae wo mou ichi dou onegai shimasu"
Pretty sure I got the whole sentence right, but at least he understood what I was asking if I did forget something.
Arigatoo gozaimashita!

Good to hear everything went well. I hope after all that trying to remember the sentence in Japanese, that you remembered his name this time round!LOL