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Function of と

Yoshie

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Could somebody please explain me the usage of と in the following sentence. It's a bit of vague for me, maybe it is conditional?

カフェインを摂取したいんなら自販機で買ってこい。うちの学校の自販機は一杯五十円とリーズナブルだぞ。

Context: Speaker was invited to go drink for a coffee after school, however he didn't want to go anywhere, and that's what he answered.
 

mdchachi

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Could somebody please explain me the usage of と in the following sentence. It's a bit of vague for me, maybe it is conditional?

カフェインを摂取したいんなら自販機で買ってこい。うちの学校の自販機は一杯五十円とリーズナブルだぞ。

Context: Speaker was invited to go drink for a coffee after school, however he didn't want to go anywhere, and that's what he answered.
I believe it's a simple AND in this case.
Our school vending machine is Y50/cup and reasonable.
 

Yoshie

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I thought it was an adjective... Or it could be both?
 

Mike Cash

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I believe it's a simple AND in this case.
Our school vending machine is Y50/cup and reasonable.
That would be more like で

カフェインを摂取したいんなら自販機で買ってこい。うちの学校の自販機は一杯五十円と {言う} リーズナブル {な価格} だぞ。

I'm not sure of the technical explanation or name for this usage.
 

mdchachi

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I didn't know you could drop the と言う in this usage. I thought it was the simple NOUN と NOUN case. Yes, リーズナブル is a na-adjective but these behave as nouns too; they are also called adjectival nouns. In other words, my vote is still for my interpretation.
Somebody needs to turn on the Toritoribe-signal and call him here so we can find the true answer.
 

Mike Cash

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@mdchachi

Would you say ポチは犬と可愛いです for "Pochi is a dog and he's cute"?

Or ポチは犬で可愛いです ?

道子は綺麗と親切です or 道子は綺麗で親切です ?
 
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mdchachi

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Dang I shouldn't have taken that bet.
Would you say ポチは犬と可愛いです for "Pochi is a dog and he's cute"?
Certainly not.
道子は綺麗と親切です or 道子は綺麗で親切です ?
That was the question and I wasn't sure because I don't find myself stringing together na-adjectives like that much. Since I didn't realize you could optionally drop the と言う, by process of elimination I came up with my wrong justification.
Anyway that's one reason I like hanging out here. Kaizen'ing my nihongo.
 

Mike Cash

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Anyway that's one reason I like hanging out here. Kaizen'ing my nihongo.
A little kaizen can't hurt any of us.

The trick in this case was a matter of considering what is not there in the English translation you carne up with, which is essentially a collapsed construction.

Consider:

Coffee is 50 yen. Coffee is reasonable.
Coffee is 50 yen and coffee is reasonable.
Coffee is 50 yen and [coffee is] reasonable.
Coffee is 50 yen and reasonable.

As you can see, semantically this isn't a matter of simply joining two items with a conjunction; it is a matter of dropping the duplication of the subject and the modal verb. This is why if you wanted the equivalent of this in Japanese you wouldn't join them with と serving as "and" but instead would need to join them with the conjugated copula (だ (な) ー> で) serving the same function as the dropped modal verb in English.

You can easily see the same thing at work in the example sentences I made up. I hope this gives a little better idea why 〜な adjectives work the way they do and why they aren't strung together with と.
 

WonkoTheSane

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...This is why if you wanted the equivalent of this in Japanese you wouldn't join them with と serving as "and" but instead would need to join them with the conjugated copula (だ (な) ー> で) serving the same function as the dropped modal verb in English.
Is this a different で than the particle indicating location/use of?

It feels entirely different but maybe I've just been misunderstanding で this whole time.
 

Mike Cash

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Is this a different で than the particle indicating location/use of?

It feels entirely different but maybe I've just been misunderstanding で this whole time.
Have you learned about "na" adjectives yet?
 

WonkoTheSane

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Have you learned about "na" adjectives yet?
Only of their existence, and if they come up during a lesson on another grammar point what to do with them.

For example, i-adj.くて~ vs. na-adj.で~ when expressing a cause and effect relationship (心配で眠れない). Nothing more comprehensive, though, and I thought the くて was the strange one and the で was really just a form of 'by the use of (the preceding)' like 電車で会社に行きます.
 

Toritoribe

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For example, i-adj.くて~ vs. na-adj.で~ when expressing a cause and effect relationship (心配で眠れない). Nothing more comprehensive, though, and I thought the くて was the strange one and the で was really just a form of 'by the use of (the preceding)' like 電車で会社に行きます.
The -te form of a verb/an adjective can express the cause/reason.
e.g.
疲れすぎて眠れない。
頭が痛くて眠れない。
不安で眠れない。

Noun + で has the same function.
e.g.
疲れすぎで眠れない。
頭痛で眠れない。
不安で眠れない。

As you can see above, the two interpretations, "the -te form of na-adjective" and "noun + で", are both possible for the -te form of a na-adjective such like 心配で.

As for 電車で会社に行きます, で indicates the means.
 
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