Few questions

[killerinsidee]

I need some help with a few things I've ran into in the past few days.

1. In addition to "upon; after" meaning, can 上で mean "purpose"? I found the entry 「するため。「勉学を続けて行く―に必要な学費」」 in 大辞泉, but it uses に instead of で. Also, this usage seems to be used after the dictionary form, while "upon; after" is used after た past. Side question, can で be omitted from 上で in the "upon; after" usage?

2. About 念を押す and its definitions. I've seen this phrase used in many of the entries like ぞ、ぜ、よ. Example - ぜ: 「話の内容について軽く念を押す」. J-J entries「重ねて注意する。また、注意して確かめる。」;「間違いがないよう、相手に十分にたしかめる」. The J-E dictionary has 「相手に十分確かめる〕 tell emphatically; emphasize; underscore; call sb's (special) attention 《to…》; 〔重ねて注意する〕 remind sb of sth; make sure of… [that…].」. What I'm interested in is 「相手に十分確かめる」, no idea what this means and how does that translate to "emphasize, tell emphatically". The only thing I can think of is, lit. "Make sure (something)sufficient to the other party", which sounds a bit silly. Oddly enough, one of the usages dictionaries have for 押す is 「確かめる. Still, if I were to infer the meaning of 念を押す without any dictionaries, would 念を押す be something like "push (to) attention"?

3. 「上画面の赤い矢印を目標に家に帰ろう！」- from a DS game. This is that soft imperative thing again. Is して omitted after 目標に? 大辞林: そこに行き着くように、またそこから外れないように目印とするもの。「島を―にして東へ進む」. 目標に(して)家に帰ろう = "use (the red arrow) as a mark / aim for (the red arrow) and return home." I remember seeing this in sentences like - 「必ず杖を手に２画で描く。」

4.「「かばんメニュー」からの「セーブ」はできん。」 - 関西弁 and the speaker is old. I'm wondering if this できん can be ambiguous? In this case it means できない, but since できる→できん is possible in 関西弁, could it be affirmative? I'm not sure if the affirmative can stand on it's own or needs some extra particles after it. From 近畿方言 - Wikipedia - 「何するねん→何すんねん」「おくれなされ→おくんなはれ」

5. 良かろう. This seems to be some old-ish thing. From what I've figured out, it could be used as いいだろう. However, in the way I've seen it used, that doesn't really fit. It seems to be used more like validating requests or something. In sentences like 「よかろう, (something) てやろう/てあげよう」. Something like this - http://kaigo-honpo.jp/kiji.html&id=264 - 『良かろう。教えてあげよう。』. The only bit of info I've found is in 大辞林 - う(助動） 「当然・適当の意を表す。…のはずだ。…して当然だ。…のがよい。「行くが良かろ〈う〉」」, but if someone could provide some explanation, that'd be great.

The new forum design is awesome btw.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
"The present form + 上に" can mean "in order to~", as in the dictionary, but is rarely used nowadays. 上で is more common for that meaning.
Yes, for the omission of で.

2)
Can you show us which part refers to which word's definition more clearly?

3)
No. 目標に works by itself without して.

4)
It can't be affirmative since る never changes to ん at the end of a sentence/clause. Wikipedia clearly explains it. (FYI, this n-euphonic change occurs also in Kanto dialect, not only in Kansai dialect, as in the quotation below.)

関東方言などと同じく、「何するねん→何すんねん」「おくれなされ→おくんなはれ」のような語中のラ行音の撥音化が盛んである。

窶ｹﾃ溪?ｹE窶｢ﾃｻﾅ陳ｾ - Wikipedia

5)
You are correct. 良かろう is いいだろう. (いいだろう。教えてあげよう。 works perfectly fine, of course.)

 

[killerinsidee]

Thanks for the help.

2) 念を押す = 大辞泉:重ねて注意する。また、注意して確かめる。「必ず出席してくれるように―・す」
念を押す = 広辞苑:間違いがないよう、相手に十分にたしかめる。「口外しないよう―」
念を押す = 研究社:念を押す〔相手に十分確かめる〕 tell emphatically; emphasize; underscore; call sb's (special) attention 《to…》; 〔重ねて注意する〕 remind sb of sth; make sure of… [that…].
ぜ = 大辞泉: 1)親しみを込めて軽く念を押す意を表す。「一服しよう―」「うまくいった―」「明日までに頼んだ―」
よ = 大辞林: 1)詠嘆の気持ちをこめて断定したり念を押して確かめたりする意を表す。「ほんとうにきれいだった―」「早くしないと，遅れる―」
押す = 大辞泉: 5)確かめる。「念を―・す」「駄目を―・す」
確かめる = 大辞林: 調べたり，念を押したりしてはっきりそうだと納得する。「真偽を―・める」「辞書で―・める」
Guess I have a problem with 押す meaning 確かめる and in turn, 確かめる meaning "emphasize/call to attention" for some reason.

3)But 目標に means the same as して or is it some different meaning (than then meaning/translation I wrote above)? 目標に taking an object with を make me thing that some verb was omitted. 必ず杖を手に２画で描く。 is the same then? Working like that without anything omitted?

5)In that case, what meaning do よかろう and いいだろう have here? Conjecture "probably", to make the statement less blunt? Like in - 「見つければいいだろ(う)。」(Though I believe that the amount of certainty is different in informal speech.)

 

[Toritoribe]

2)
So, what is your main question?

3)
百万円を限度に融資を受けられる。
今日を限りにタバコを止める。

See the examples above. In these sentences, 限度として/限りとして is more common when して is attached to. に is not just the omitted version of にして, but has a function by itself, I suppose.

必ず杖を手に２画で描く is different. The function of 手 in this sentence is not the same as the function of 目標/限度/限り.

5)
よかろう/いいだろう means "OK", "alright" or something along the line. The speaker accepts the addressee's request/wish.

 

[killerinsidee]

2)Well, let me ask just this. What does "相手に十分確かめ" mean, literally? - It sounds a bit strange, though - "Make sure/confirm to someone (you're talking to)"?

3)Sorry for bothering you with my silly stuff, but this "omitted or not" thing has been on my mind for a while. I'm aware of the "限りに" thing, but oddly enough, I never noticed that the object before it is without a verb. This に is a bit hard to define, but I guess it could be kind of adverbial-ish. Anyways, last question - about the 必ず杖を手に２画で描く. Something omitted or not? The only other example I found was ﾂ湘ｱ窶堙ｰﾅｽﾃｨ窶堙俄?堙娯?ｰp窶禿ｳﾂ｜窶ｰpﾅｽﾂｫﾋ弸 on the WEBﾂ：ﾆ但ﾆ停?ｹﾆ誰 which didn't help much, there are dozens of を手に入れる/して/持つ, etc. examples, though.

 

[Toritoribe]

2)
Judging from your translation "Make sure (something)sufficient to the other party" in your initial post, is it the key that 十分 actually is an adverb 十分に "sufficiently", maybe?

3)
Sorry, I was wrong and you are correct. I remember that I myself answered it's considered して is omitted in that structure previously.

召すas an euphemism to "to die" and "を前に主のもとへ"
Translation confirmation

As for 杖を手に, yes, that's 杖を手にして or 杖を手に持って. Another example similar to 手に is 希望を胸に（抱いて）旅に出た. In this case, して can't be replaced with 抱いて, so the omitted verb is not always して, but anyway an idea that a verb is omitted after に would be correct. (And に still has some function in this structure as in the example 限度に vs 限度として.)

 

[killerinsidee]

2)Yeah, I'm aware of the 十分 adverb, I was more aiming to figure out に確かめる, usually it's を確かめる and I haven't seen it used much with に, a target of the verb "to (someone)".

3)It's fine, everyone makes mistakes, me especially . When in doubt, I guess something is usually omitted, especially in writing.

Thanks again for the help with all of these.

 

[Toritoribe]

Ah, I see. に indicates the person the speaker is talking to to make sure of the thing, and を is for the thing the speaker wants to make sure. Thus, your interpretation "make sure/confirm to someone (you're talking to)" is correct.

e.g.
彼に真偽を確かめた/確認した。
I asked him to make sure if that's true or not.

秘書に会議の日付を確かめた/確認した。
I asked my secretary about the date of a meeting to make sure.