Elizabeth-san, 3 years later...

GoldCoinLover · 22 Jan 2006

Elizabeth san says in 2003:
I suppose because sensible explanations of it may not even exist, but untranslatable and or illogical grammar has always been the most frustrating personally -- particularly things like creating noun phrases for reference something (no, koto, tokoro, to iu no wa), sentences that seem to have two topics ("Kore wa shuchou wa....") or an abstract topic and subject "Sore wa kono koto ga"), the use of "nan" at the end of a phrase or sentence I still have no idea about....and I'm sure other things will spring to mind after reading everyone elses headaches .

===============================

Even I know nan means 'what'. And koto means, stamps. etc. Sore refers to something that is closer to the listener.

My, my, Elizabeth. You sure have improved in only 3 years. Incredible.

Keep it up.

Now, I just wish this website would change the dates. The year is always at the end, not used to this.

GoldCoinLover · 22 Jan 2006

Quote: "Well, nan da or nan desu. One instance I recently came across would be "Sensei nan da" translated by a non-native English speaker as "He was [is] a teacher" and assumed the "nan" was mainly for emphasis, something to the effect "and what a teacher he was." I wasn't sure, though, if maybe if "n da" could also be a contraction for "no" -- it wouldn't make sense in this case. But after an adjective like sukina nanda? To make a long story short, it has somehow gotten entangled in my mind with "....irun'desu" as in "it is that thing" or "it is that way.""

Wow.

Da is the particle, "Gaijin da!" "Look, a foreigner!"

Nan desu. "What it is." (I think?) Nan desu ka? (What is it?)

Etc

I got a new CD program

KrazyKat · 22 Jan 2006

GoldCoinLover said:
Quote: "Well, nan da or nan desu. One instance I recently came across would be "Sensei nan da" translated by a non-native English speaker as "He was [is] a teacher" and assumed the "nan" was mainly for emphasis, something to the effect "and what a teacher he was." I wasn't sure, though, if maybe if "n da" could also be a contraction for "no" -- it wouldn't make sense in this case. But after an adjective like sukina nanda? To make a long story short, it has somehow gotten entangled in my mind with "....irun'desu" as in "it is that thing" or "it is that way.""
Wow.
Da is the particle, "Gaijin da!" "Look, a foreigner!"
Nan desu. "What it is." (I think?) Nan desu ka? (What is it?)
Etc
I got a new CD program

Just to clear this up.
n'desu is used in a similar way to desu, but when giving an explaination. There is often no difference in translation. Sometimes I like to think of it as meaning 'it is that ...' but I wouldn't really translate it as that - it sounds stupid

n'desu is an abbreviation of no desu. A 'na' will come before n'desu if following a noun instead of a verb. ie 'sensei na n desu' vs 'iku n desu'. hence nan desu. This nan is different from nan/nani (what) however just being an abreviation of the particles na and no. (It is like the na in na adjectives btw)

That was the main point I wanted to make but a few extras:
da is the plain form of desu, like suru vs shimasu. Your example is right, looks like you have got that one down.
koto means thing. Not to be confused with mono. However it certainly will be confused with mono. I think I'm slowly getting when to use each

Elizabeth clearly knew what all those words mean, she was commenting on how the japanese use those words in 'funny ways' and how it can be hard to translate sentences properly. Sorry, if I've put myself where I'm not wanted here but I just wanted to make everything clear. gomen ne

Katherine

Gaijinian · 22 Jan 2006

Well, I'm sure Elizabeth knows "nan=na no" now.

GCL, your Japanese is not yet advanced enough to understand Elizabeth's post, which is clearly demonstrated in your reply.
(Don't take offence to that; it is just the fact of the matter)

Anyway, good luck with you new program!
(Oh, and if you study hard, you could be fluent in a few years, trust me!)

KrazyKat · 22 Jan 2006

Gaijinian said:
Well, I'm sure Elizabeth knows "nan=na no" now.

Yeah, I figured. Elizabeth-san's Japanese seems quite impressive from what i've seen so far. This wasn't really adressed to Elizabeth-san but any beginners reading the forums, inc GCL, since ndesu can be a bit hard to grasp. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I just felt that if its left with 'incorrect' explainations people might get the wrong idea.

Elizabeth · 22 Jan 2006

Even I know nan means 'what'. And koto means, stamps. etc. Sore refers to something that is closer to the listener.

I tried to keep the Japanese here relatively simple and accessible, Kevin. Thanks everyone else above for the more detailed explanations.
こんにちわケヴィンさん。
支援してくれてありがとうございます。(Thanks for your support).
私の成功は、私の勤勉さと関係があります。My success is due to studiousness.
私を手本にしてみてください。 Please follow this example.
恥ずかしくて以前、書いた日本語文章を読み返すことがあまり出来ないですよね。
問いのことじゃなかったですが。。。日本語で、同じ発音をしても、
意味が違うことがたくさんありますね。(In Japanese there are a lot of words that have similar pronunciations with different meanings).
その場合には、「なん」と「何」の書き方が違うし、これらの言葉は何の関係もないとおもいます。
つまり、その二つの単語には、二つの意味がありますよ。(In this case two words pronounced "nan" (なんと何) are usually written differently and I don't think are related at all.)
ひらがなで書く「なん」と漢字の「何」の言葉の意味が全然違うでしょう。
その古いポストから判断すると、そのとき、[What]という意味で使われる「何」
がわかったのに、これ以外は何もよく知らなかったそうです。
In that post 3 years ago I understood 何, which means what ; but not
how to use なん very well -- the one that is a contraction of "na no" and used conversationally for emphasis at the end of sentences.

Gaijinian · 22 Jan 2006

Ah, I see...
Good point.
(Elizabeth posted before me, I was addressing KK...Well, everyone, but it could be confusing since I posted this after E-san.)

To add to your teisei, da is not a partial, but a copula. It is the informal way of saying, "desu." So, "gaijin da"= (It is a) gaijin（もちろん、この言葉を翻訳しなくてもいいですね）.

Elizabeth · 22 Jan 2006

And koto means, stamps. etc.

Stamps だと意味がわかりませんね。(I don't understand the meaning of "stamps" here). Koto means "thing" but abstract things like your activities
(Donna koto ga dekimasuka? - What kinds of things can we do?), ways of using language, ideas etc. For physical things they generally use the word "mono"
(物), which I think you also know ?

kumo · 22 Jan 2006

Elizabeth said:
こんにちわケヴィンさん。

危ない！『こんにちわ』撲滅委員会に捕まっちゃうよ！
Ok, sorry to interrupt you guys.
And Kevin, I have a really good scanned grammar book if you want (I can send to you through msn). Send me a PM if you're interested.

The7thSamurai · 22 Jan 2006

Elizabeth said:
Stamps だと意味がわかりませんね。(I don't understand the meaning of "stamps" here). Koto means "thing" but abstract things like your activities

Am I wrong to say that 'koto' is like adding '~ing' to a verb to change it into a noun, as in "I like playing soccer", where 'playing soccer' is the noun. サッカーをすることが好きだ。 Is that right? I also read that you can use の to change a verb to a noun. So how about サッカーをするのが好きだ。?

KrazyKat · 22 Jan 2006

Bucko said:
Am I wrong to say that 'koto' is like adding '~ing' to a verb to change it into a noun, as in "I like playing soccer", where 'playing soccer' is the noun. サッカーをすることが好きだ。 Is that right? I also read that you can use の to change a verb to a noun. So how about サッカーをするのが好きだ。?

That's pretty much right, although here I would just say サッカーが好きです。

Elizabeth · 22 Jan 2006

Bucko said:
Am I wrong to say that 'koto' is like adding '~ing' to a verb to change it into a noun, as in "I like playing soccer", where 'playing soccer' is the noun. サッカーをすることが好きだ。 Is that right? I also read that you can use の to change a verb to a noun. So how about サッカーをするのが好きだ。?

Both are possible depending on the context. For 好きです the standard phrase is のが。ことが好き I'm not exactly sure what implication it would have but anyway it is much rarer if correct at all. Just remember that の is more emotive and concrete and often used for talking about your feelings, things you like or dislike or perceptions. If you want to say something more objective like "I sometimes play soccer" that would be サッカーをすることがあります。

If you're not positive (or even if you are) and it is clear you're talking about playing not watching soccer, as Katherine mentioned, leaving the suru part out entirely is often the most natural course.

Elizabeth-san, 3 years later...

GoldCoinLover

後輩

GoldCoinLover

後輩

KrazyKat

先輩

Gaijinian

Sempai

KrazyKat

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Gaijinian

Sempai

Elizabeth

先輩

kumo

絶望と共に散りゆく者

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

KrazyKat

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

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