ECC Defrauding Applicants?

[Glenski]

Armand,
I have been on discussion forums for about 10 years. Everyone there seems to know that there is an exam that ECC and certain other employers want candidates to take. I can't imagine why you didn't know. This piece of information is very widely talked about. Go to the best place (the place you should have been researching) for this sort of info -- ESL Cafe (a place I always tell people to visit) -- and you'll get a huge number of threads in response to a search on just the keywords "ECC test". Boatloads of information! Moreover, with just the words "Japan ECC interview" (not test), I got this lovely little link on the second hit: Teach in Japan with ECC. Tips to Survive ECC's Grammar Test The test is mentioned right there, so ESL Cafe is not the only place you have to go.

And on the ESL Cafe job ad posted on 15 January 2008, it clearly states the test is there! International Job Board - ESL It's listed as required for Toronto and Australia, not any other location, but it's mentioned and should give you a heads-up that one exists. This was the 6th hit item on that same search.

Even for their puny little ECC Junior slot a few years ago, there was a heads-up announcement of that in the interview materials.

Whether you fail the test or not does not mean you fail the whole interview. According to some people, they bombed the test and were actually asked to repeat it because they did so well in other parts of the process. (Some of the threads on the ESL Cafe describe in intimate detail what the special EFL terms are that you need to know in that last, most difficult section. I had to keep from laughing when someone actually asked what the word "elicit" means, though! Makes you wonder how far he got in the interviewing process.)

You snidely wrote

You know more than a practicing California attorney who reviewed their documents?

Well, I can pretty much say that in some respects, yes, I do know more simply because I've gone through the process. In another aspect, no, simply because I didn't have the documents that you did. Fair enough?

As for your copy/paste, what exactly is that? It looks like the outline/agenda only for the presentation of ECC to candidates. It is nothing about the whole interview. For example, I don't see where it says you do a demo lesson or have a panel interview or take a lunch break. Please clarify what this copied info really is. To say "Contents" at the top is pointless. Contents for what? You only said "what is to be covered". As I just wrote, that could mean only what is covered in the 1-hour presentation they plan to give which covers what they want to describe about the company.

As for this statement

The transactions involving recruitment took place in California, not in Japan. Accordingly, they are subject to California law.

I think that is also due to interpretation. After all, the interview may have taken place in the USA, but the outfit itself is based in Japan, and all complaints should be directed there anyway. I suggest you file one there. I'm serious. I really think it behooves you to make that much effort just to see if they reply with some apology, or if they explain their policy, even if that means a policy of not announcing a test which IMO anyone who strives to teach EFL should be able to pass. (I say this last part only because at least one other person who took it said that the EFL terms could easily enough be figured out largely through the process of elimination. I guess that doesn't include the doofus who didn't know the meaning of the word "elicit".)

Not really upset, Armand? Could have fooled me. You talk to a lawyer (friend or not, it's still a big move) and you write half of the 26 posts on this thread in just one day!

 

[Mike Cash]

Not really upset, Armand? Could have fooled me. You talk to a lawyer (friend or not, it's still a big move) and you write half of the 26 posts on this thread in just one day!

And contacted two District Attorneys' offices.....

 

[JimmySeal]

Sorry for getting a little off topic, and I know this is vastly different from your situation, but...

The head of a little Seattle startup just happened to be passing through my town and in the same cafe as me about 2 hours ago. I told him I was looking for a programming job in Japan, and he asked me to write a binary search algorithm on paper, so I did, and then he asked me to write a non-recursive one, and I did that too. Now the guy is seriously considering hiring me at some point in the not-too-distant future because I showed, on the spot, that I can write code.

The moral of the story is, if you're looking for a job (or even if you're not), always be ready to have your knowledge tested, even if you're not given advance notice.

 

[Mike Cash]

My long-standing policy exactly. Knowledge you have to cram for is not knowledge. I have always had a firm belief that studying for a test is the same thing as cheating on it.

 

[ArmandV]

Armand,
I have been on discussion forums for about 10 years. Everyone there seems to know that there is an exam that ECC and certain other employers want candidates to take. I can't imagine why you didn't know. This piece of information is very widely talked about. Go to the best place (the place you should have been researching) for this sort of info -- ESL Cafe (a place I always tell people to visit) -- and you'll get a huge number of threads in response to a search on just the keywords "ECC test". Boatloads of information! Please clarify what this copied info really is. To say "Contents" at the top is pointless. Contents for what? You only said "what is to be covered". As I just wrote, that could mean only what is covered in the 1-hour presentation they plan to give which covers what they want to describe about the company.
As for this statement I think that is also due to interpretation. After all, the interview may have taken place in the USA, but the outfit itself is based in Japan, and all complaints should be directed there anyway. I suggest you file one there. I'm serious. I really think it behooves you to make that much effort just to see if they reply with some apology, or if they explain their policy, even if that means a policy of not announcing a test which IMO anyone who strives to teach EFL should be able to pass. (I say this last part only because at least one other person who took it said that the EFL terms could easily enough be figured out largely through the process of elimination. I guess that doesn't include the doofus who didn't know the meaning of the word "elicit".)
Not really upset, Armand? Could have fooled me. You talk to a lawyer (friend or not, it's still a big move) and you write half of the 26 posts on this thread in just one day!

Glenski, since I was unaware of the websites you mentioned, I could not peruse them. As for whether ECC's testing was "widely talked about" here, I don't look at every single thread.

The agenda thing I posted is exactly what was sent to me. I cannot clarify it further than that. They put the word "contents" in there, not me. As for the number of posts, I was responding to the other posters besides yourself. This seems to be a "popular" thread considering the hits and responses in one day. I must ask you, you made two extensive posts on this thread, what is your interest in this (do you have stock in ECC)? Yet you criticize me. I find that interesting.

Perhaps I should have mentioned it here before going and you learned people would have told me what to expect. Hindsight is always 20/20, right?

It is all well and good that there are sites that you mentioned, but the crux of the matter is, if their own website does not spell everything out, then one would take it that what is listed is all there is to it. It is their responsibility to spell out their procedures. Maybe I've been in claims too long where the rule is, "If it ain't in the file, it doesn't exist." I took it under good faith (maybe I am too trusting) that what was given to me from the get-go was all there was too it.

As for talking to a lawyer, we talk all the time. No biggie there. I felt it necessary to get his opinion before going forward. He felt it was misrepresentation rather than fraud, but actionable. If he felt there was nothing to my concerns, he would have said so and advised me to drop it.

As for my "snide" remark, you have a snide manner yourself (whether you realize it or not) and I was responding accordingly. If you took offense, then I apologize.

Mike Cash, bless his heart, seems to take issue about reporting this to the D.A.s. Well, since what occurred seems unethical and possibly illegal (almost akin to a "bait & switch" tactic), they should look into this. ECC dangled a carrot to people without providing the full details on what is expected, and then people travel distances to attend their session only to find out there was more to it than was advertised. If the D.A.'s offices feel that there was a violation of statute, then they will pursue this if they choose. (Maybe you guys have been out of the country too long.)

The jurisdiction for this is California. I have no doubts about this as the meeting took place in San Francisco and was handled by their Los Angeles office in which their USA representative is based in Torrance, in Los Angeles County. Therefore, this is subject to California law.

Perhaps this experience will help others in the future or forces ECC to be more explicit about their hoops and jumps. Then some good will come out of this.

Mikawa Ossan wrote:

Regarding the test, I applied for a job at ECC some years ago, but I did it so here in Japan. There was no paper test as you took, but there was a mandatory mock lesson that we had to "teach" to the other applicants.

I am curious about when this written test was started since he didn't have to do it. A mandatory mock lesson was also part of the session in the afternoon. But I was advised about this before leaving L.A. I was actually looking forward to it.

 

[ArmandV]

The moral of the story is, if you're looking for a job (or even if you're not), always be ready to have your knowledge tested, even if you're not given advance notice.

I agree with you. But this came up on short-notice (about a week or so ago) and I had to determine if I even had the funds to even make the trek.

This boils down to "shoulda, woulda, coulda." I have to deal with the situation as it stands.

 

[Glenski]

Glenski, since I was unaware of the websites you mentioned, I could not peruse them.

It's obvious you were unaware of them, but did you even take the time to do a simple search as I did? No. That's all it would have taken.

As for whether ECC's testing was "widely talked about" here, I don't look at every single thread.

Not here. On the ESL Cafe. Bet you haven't even gone there yet.

This seems to be a "popular" thread considering the hits and responses in one day.

It is, and most of us are trying to show how ill-informed you were/are, and how small your chances are at getting any sort of money out of ECC.

I must ask you, you made two extensive posts on this thread, what is your interest in this (do you have stock in ECC)? Yet you criticize me. I find that interesting.

No stock in any school. My reasons are purely altruistic, as they have been for the past 11 years of posting on this and half a dozen other sites. I offer accurate information for free to help out the misinformed and the uninformed. Look at the FAQ in the Practical section of this site alone. General advice re: moving to Japan See what I contributed? I have a boatload of info on one 2-Mbyte file alone that I used to pass out to people to give them a head start on job hunting. Since then, I edit one teachers' organization blog, I serve as a moderator on a discussion forum (and have turned down offers for 2 others), and have written many FAQs for other forums on teaching. Why do I spend the time? Some days, like now, it just doesn't seem worth it, but essentially I do this to help people. I was in the same position myself when the Internet was in its infancy, so I had to do things the hard way a lot to get my information before coming here for my first teaching job. Now I try to make it easier for people. Some posters prefer to write only the rosy view of life and work here, so I also show a balanced POV. For that, I get slammed by some people. I don't care.

Perhaps I should have mentioned it here before going and you learned people would have told me what to expect. Hindsight is always 20/20, right?

Don'T get sarcastic with that "learned" crack. We are more experienced than you, and the first thing I'd have done is tell you exactly what I've done so far. Get off this site first and go to one that is devoted to EFL (the ESL Cafe is the most well-known). You'd have learned about the test immediately.

It is all well and good that there are sites that you mentioned, but the crux of the matter is, if their own website does not spell everything out, then one would take it that what is listed is all there is to it.

Where did you hear of ECC? If it was a friend, he should have mentioned it, too. If it was an ad like the one on ESL Cafe, it shows the exam. I would like to know where you missed out.

It is their responsibility to spell out their procedures.

Not necessarily. As people have been trying to explain to you here, and as is written in some of those ESL Cafe posts, the test exists, it is widely known by others, and there is essentially no practical way of studying for it, but ECC chooses to use it to screen people.

Answer me this. Do you know what part(s) you failed? I'm guessing no, because nobody I know has ever been told. Regardless, if you did indeed fail part of it, it would probably be that EFL terminology section, but we don't know how good your other sections were! Who knows how much was botched there, as well?

Maybe I've been in claims too long where the rule is, "If it ain't in the file, it doesn't exist."

I was in a customer service group once myself, and that sort of rule is bogus. Files get lost, misplaced, or accidentally destroyed/deleted. Sounds like a government bureaucracy answer to me.

As for talking to a lawyer, we talk all the time. No biggie there. I felt it necessary to get his opinion before going forward. He felt it was misrepresentation rather than fraud, but actionable. If he felt there was nothing to my concerns, he would have said so and advised me to drop it.

Can I ask if his specialty is in contract law or in Japanese law?

As for my "snide" remark, you have a snide manner yourself (whether you realize it or not) and I was responding accordingly. If you took offense, then I apologize.

My hide is thick enough to take a certain level of indignities. Your remark was far from that. I only responded the way I did because I, not your lawyer friend, have been around this business and seen what he has not.

Let us know what you plan to do and how it turns out if you go ahead with legal proceedings.

 

[ArmandV]

It's obvious you were unaware of them, but did you even take the time to do a simple search as I did? No. That's all it would have taken.
Not here. On the ESL Cafe. Bet you haven't even gone there yet.

I checked the sites you posted earlier in this thread. Yes, it would have been helpful to have seen the one outlining what to expect. I did notice this line on the one about ECC schedules: "(a face-to-face interview, teaching demo and grammar test will be required in Toronto)." That implies that the demo and grammar test is just required in Toronto. It says nothing about this in the Los Angeles/San Francisco section. I would contend that they need to be just as specific in the LA/SF section, otherwise, it would be misleading. But this is not an official ECC website from what I could tell. Misleading as this one may be, still, ECC needs to tighten up their own site and the materials that are sent out so that people aren't being misrepresented. Besides that, it would be in ECC's own interests to do so to protect themselves.

Don'T get sarcastic with that "learned" crack.

Sorry, I didn't intend it that way. It was an admission that you know way more about the ins and outs of this than I do.

Where did you hear of ECC? If it was a friend, he should have mentioned it, too. If it was an ad like the one on ESL Cafe, it shows the exam. I would like to know where you missed out.

I first heard of it in Japan 4 years ago through an actor (in Japan) friend.

Answer me this. Do you know what part(s) you failed? I'm guessing no, because nobody I know has ever been told. Regardless, if you did indeed fail part of it, it would probably be that EFL terminology section, but we don't know how good your other sections were! Who knows how much was botched there, as well?

No, they didn't tell us. I can only say that the spelling, grammar correction sections seemed to go okay. I would agree that the EFL terminology section was most likely the killer. Many of the terms were completely unfamiliar to me. A lot of the mix and match section I did the best I could with the process of elimination. Obviously, I didn't do well enough.

I was in a customer service group once myself, and that sort of rule is bogus. Files get lost, misplaced, or accidentally destroyed/deleted. Sounds like a government bureaucracy answer to me.

I beg to differ. It may not be the case in the customer service business you were in, but it is a reality in the insurance claims business. We are governed by statutes and the Department of Insurance regulations and claim files are both hard files (paper) and electronic which contains notes and scanned documents. There is no such thing as an "accidentally destroyed/deleted file." There are safeguards in place as quite often the file is subpoenaed for trials. If a file does not contain something, whether it is a document or even a note, then it does not exist. I do take very meticulous notes as I have nailed many people for insurance fraud. One company gave out $1,000 bonuses for convictions. I garnered several from that company.

Can I ask if his specialty is in contract law or in Japanese law?
My hide is thick enough to take a certain level of indignities. Your remark was far from that. I only responded the way I did because I, not your lawyer friend, have been around this business and seen what he has not.

He is in personal injury and contract law. He's been in business for about 25-30 years. As stated previously, this is under California's jurisdiction as ECC has to be licensed by the state to do any kind of business here. Japanese law is not applicable. You may disagree.

Let us know what you plan to do and how it turns out if you go ahead with legal proceedings.

It really depends upon the response by ECC. What would you say if I did proceed and actually won a judgment?

 

[Mike Cash]

I don't "take issue" with you reporting it to anyone you like, D.A. or otherwise. I only mentioned it as one of the points which makes it hard to believe you weren't upset by this, as you claimed.

 

[ArmandV]

I don't "take issue" with you reporting it to anyone you like, D.A. or otherwise. I only mentioned it as one of the points which makes it hard to believe you weren't upset by this, as you claimed.

I admit being mad, but not frothing mad.

 

[Glenski]

Armand,
Did your actor friend work for or apply to ECC? I'm guessing not.

It's nice that you had such a nice error-free business in insurance claims, but to say that "There is no such thing as an "accidentally destroyed/deleted file" is stretching it. People make mistakes, fires happen, storms blow circuits, disks get lost, etc.

What would you say if I did proceed and actually won a judgment?

I would say good for you, and hope to use the information to help others. I'm not above that sort of thing. Please keep us informed of any actions you and ECC take.

 

[ArmandV]

Armand,
Did your actor friend work for or apply to ECC? I'm guessing not.
It's nice that you had such a nice error-free business in insurance claims, but to say that "There is no such thing as an "accidentally destroyed/deleted file" is stretching it. People make mistakes, fires happen, storms blow circuits, disks get lost, etc.
I would say good for you, and hope to use the information to help others. I'm not above that sort of thing. Please keep us informed of any actions you and ECC take.

Before the advent of the Internet, etc., lost/destroyed files did happen. As I said, there are now safeguards in place to prevent the loss of any file. They are periodically uploaded and stored away from the premises. You would not believe the layers of safeguards. Many storage sites are Internet sites.

I don't know if he applied at ECC. They only thing I remember him saying was that he met with one of them about a possible position and they told him that they teach "the proper English." He asked if they meant the Queen's English, and they said no. Then he asked where do they find this "proper English." "Michigan" was the response.

 

[Glenski]

The fact that safeguards exist doesn't mean that everyone uses them. We're veering way off topic here anyway. You were mostly concerned with information that wasn't on the ECC web page, not data that was lost.

Michigan, eh? I hope that wasn't from Da Yoopers' section of the state!

 

[JimmySeal]

Michigan, eh? I hope that wasn't from Da Yoopers' section of the state!

Or Detroit. The adult literacy rate there is barely over 50%.

 

[epigene]

They only thing I remember him saying was that he met with one of them about a possible position and they told him that they teach "the proper English." He asked if they meant the Queen's English, and they said no. Then he asked where do they find this "proper English." "Michigan" was the response.

Meaning University of Michigan, Ann Arbor?
I'm asking because a lot of books on English language education I've seen in the past were published by UM Ann Arbor...

 

[ArmandV]

Meaning University of Michigan, Ann Arbor?
I'm asking because a lot of books on English language education I've seen in the past were published by UM Ann Arbor...

He meant the area in general.

After they told him "Michigan," his response was, "What?! Who told you that?"

 

[Iron Chef]

I once applied to ECC in 1998 after my initial stint as an ALT in Sapporo had expired. I filed the necessary forms and was contacted to come in for an interview. I made the mistake of going with a female friend of mine at that time who accompanied me and waited paitently in the lobby. My language skills weren't up to snuff yet and she knew the area better than I did at the time. During the course of my interview I was videotaped and told this was normal and perfectly routine as part of the hiring process. I didn't mind really, no biggie. What I DID mind though was:

1) I was told I would have to grow my hair out and immediately shave my goatee if I were hired. The interviewer stressed the reason for this was that they wanted to maintain a professional image for their teachers and apparently I didn't fit their image lol. My immediate response was of course the length of my hair or the fuzz on my chin had no bearing on my ability to teach in class. And that his time interviewing me would be better spent on more substantive issues. Of course, that got me off on the wrong foot simply because I chose to contest his proposal. Like he expected me to just say "Yes sir! Right away sir! Whatever you want, I will freely comply." Puhleeze...

2) During the videotaped session the interviewer made an excuse that he needed another battery for the camera and politely excused himself. I did not know at the time but learned after the fact that the man had then went into the lobby, introduced himself to my friend who had been waiting for me, and then abruptyly proceeded to ask her questions. Things like "Is he your boyfriend?" "How long have you known him?" etc etc. Things that were frankly none of his damn business and should have had no bearing on my interview. What a rude little ****.

So yeah, needless to say even though I was eventually offered the position I turned them down without regret. That about sums up my experience with ECC.

 

[ArmandV]

I once applied to ECC in 1998 after my initial stint as an ALT in Sapporo had expired. I filed the necessary forms and was contacted to come in for an interview. I made the mistake of going with a female friend of mine at that time who accompanied me and waited paitently in the lobby. My language skills weren't up to snuff yet and she knew the area better than I did at the time. During the course of my interview I was videotaped and told this was normal and perfectly routine as part of the hiring process. I didn't mind really, no biggie. What I DID mind though was:
1) I was told I would have to grow my hair out and immediately shave my goatee if I were hired. The interviewer stressed the reason for this was that they wanted to maintain a professional image for their teachers and apparently I didn't fit their image lol. My immediate response was of course the length of my hair or the fuzz on my chin had no bearing on my ability to teach in class. And that his time interviewing me would be better spent on more substantive issues. Of course, that got me off on the wrong foot simply because I chose to contest his proposal. Like he expected me to just say "Yes sir! Right away sir! Whatever you want, I will freely comply." Puhleeze...

One could argue that your rather unorthodox (to them, anyway) style would be an asset as the students' attention would definitely be focused on your head. Apparently they thought the same since they made you an offer.

This appears to counter Mike's theory on the the kind of candidate they're looking for as stated on page 1. ;-)

 

[epigene]

One could argue that your rather unorthodox (to them, anyway) style would be an asset as the students' attention would definitely be focused on your head. Apparently they thought the same since they made you and offer.
This appears to counter Mike's theory on the the kind of candidate they're looking for as stated on page 1. ;-)

I think the interviewer saw something great about his teaching capability despite everything else (appearance, female companion, etc.). Although there are "basic requirements" that the candidate must satisfy, there is always margin of discretion that the interviewer can exercise in screening applicants. Appearance is a "must" for some; others see value in other aspects and see "appearance" as "correctable."

I confess that I had been an interviewer for an English language school (not one of the major ones but a relatively small school) and things were up to me to decide who to hire. If I were Iron Chef's interviewer, I probably would have hired him if he did great in other areas.
(Disclaimer: This was more than two decades ago before I got married... )

ArmandV,
This is totally conjecture, but I have a sneaking suspicion that ECC had been looking for young people fresh out of university? This is something a school wouldn't say at an interview but something discovered usually after you are hired.

Edit: I know it's too late now, but I'll still add that the comment above (about ECC probably only recruiting young ones) was made because, if I were an interviewer, I would find you very promising, shown by the sense of humor you show in your posts.

 

[ArmandV]

This is something a school wouldn't say at an interview but something discovered usually after you are hired.

If their feet were totally set in concrete on hiring only recent grads, then one would conclude that said discovery could not possibly be made by someone more advanced in years.

 

[epigene]

If their feet were totally set in concrete on hiring only recent grads, then one would conclude that said discovery could not possibly be made by someone more advanced in years.

So true!

So, that's the reason why you need to gather info at ESL Cafe, etc., as Glenski recommends...

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

I'm not necessarily siding with Armand here. If he can get away with the lawsuit, more power to him. Personally, I've applied to ECC, but I'm not sure I want to spend the serious dough it would take to get from New Jersey to Toronto, just to flunk because I don't know ESL terms like:

"dialogues, role-playing, TPR, chain sentence formation etc."

Dialogues, role-playing, easy. What the hell is TPR and "chain sentence formation"? I work in ESL for Pete's sake, and I haven't encountered these terms before. I can guess at "chain sentence formation" but the acronym escapes me. And if that segment is the killer, well, I see how it functions as an effective tool in the weed-out process, I'm not sure they are weeding out exactly who they should be. There are no guides or lists of terms online that ECC will put on the test. I'm confident I'll ace everything else on the test, but I'd hate to flunk it based on one segment like that.

 

[JimmySeal]

TPR is Total Physical Response. I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't been in EFL for the last 2 years, and I admit it's a bit sucky that Armand only found out about the session a week in advance and didn't know he would be tested on that stuff, but I don't see what the big deal is with learning some terminology to apply for a job. How hard could it be? Use an SRS and it will be effortless.

Count yourselves lucky that you're not Japanese ﾂ新窶伉ｲ and don't have to take a ﾂ湘ｭﾅｽﾂｯﾅｽﾅｽﾅ陳ｱ or the SPI.

 

[Glenski]

Jimmy,
Don't help him. If he works in EFL and doesn't know those terms, it's a lost cause. He seems to have a terribly negative attitude anyway. That alone, not a test score, would cause him to fail the interview.

 

[ArmandV]

After I've spent most of this morning going over things with the adjusting company that am doing work for, I decided to drop this matter. As it is a new position, I need to concentrate on that as the first priority and not be distracted by any legal battles which may cause me to lose time from work. That's not a wise thing to do when starting out with a new company.

Since my total expenses were under $180, it isn't worth the hassle. I've got bigger and better things to do.

Still, ECC does need to be explicit to applicants on what their hiring procedures are, for their own protection as well as for applicants.