Easy to Forget?

Mandylion · 25 Mar 2004

Granted you might have more first hand contact with things on the ground in China. But what is the government doing? That is where the rubber meets the road. A little spat between prime ministers doesn't mean war. All the signs point to the Chinese government gaining power in the region through trade and commerce.

Soviet Soldier said:
China can invade Taiwan now. They are just being halted because Americans could interfere with this Taiwan issue.

Last time I checked from US congressional testimony before the House Foreign Affairs Committee, a few years ago, China did not possess the amphibious machines necessary to invade Taiwan. Hence all the missiles pointed at it. Granted they could have developed/bought the technology, but why undertake such a destabalizing action when the government is so keen on fostering trade?

Reducing something to ashes does not go well towards economic expoliation. Even the US in Iraq was careful to try and avoid destroying infrastructure that had possible economic benefit.

Sovet Soldier said:
And the chinese or US surely doesn't want to have a war over this issue.

Which is why I think they won't do the same to Japan - even if the US takes away its bases in the region. The last war in Iraq, though now is falling to pieces, did showcase to North Korea and China just what the US can do with only a portion of their forces. Arguably it brought North Korea closer to the table on issues about nuclear reactors.

Soviet Soldier said:
By the way, Chinese soldiers did not stayed in North Korea after the non agression pact of korean war, because

1) Chinese only helped North Korea because Americans and NATO forces were pretty closed to border of China when the NATO/US forces pulled North Koreans from the south. China were there to help North Korea in same time to secure their border from possitive offense from NATO/US forces. Chinese surely didnt stay in North Korea because Mao was not interested in having his PLA on his allies soil, in same time he did not wished to abosorb his fellow communist country into China.

The current Chinese government is much more liberal than Mao. If Mao didn't want to expand, why would a more international and trade minded government want to expand into Japan?

Soviet Solider said:
2) If the chinese PLA would ever had stayed in North Korea, there could've possible threat from North Korea. And Chinese learned that North korea is formidible opponent when they ever declared war on North korea.

It is generally accepted that the North Koreans got their hinders whipped and would have lost if China and the Soviet Union hadn't stepped in. Perhaps with the right equipment NK could have been a "formidable opponent" but they clearly didn't have any and had noway of maintaining or developing their fighting force without outside help.

Soviet Soldier said:
I was just pointing out which it could be possible. I don't really care if serious people care or dont give a jack about it. I just felt like sharing my view with other people.

When I asked "for what purpose" I was asking why would China want to invade Japan not what you hoped to show by posting your ideas. Your views are very welcome here. Thank you for taking the time to add to the thread. I thought some might like seeing both sides of the issue. I think it is important to distinguish between what is possible and what is in reality probable (in the sense of the word that - it is possible to send manned spaceships to Planet (something) but the realities involved make it highly improbably) Same thing for China invading Japan.

Golgo_13 · 25 Mar 2004

Should China apologize for invading and annexing Tibet?
I'm sure they killed more than a few people to do it.

Soviet Soldier · 25 Mar 2004

Tibet was a part of China for long time until they declared independent then again got abosorbed by China. Go read more about history of China and you would find out just how long Tibet has been part of China even before the Tang dynasty.

nikki_the_insane · 16 Jul 2004

This is a very interesting thread and I feel horrible that I don't have the time to read it out thourghly. I think I learned more about Japan's actions during WWII in the first few post then I ever did in 8th grade. I feel deprived that my school did not teach me anything about this. All the hype was about Germany and the holocaust. The Diary of Anne Frank is a book that 8th graders are 'required' to read but I don't see us being 'required' to read a book about the actions of Japan during this time. I do admit that the reason I was initially into Japan was because of Anime and Manga, but it's culuture, history, art, and beliefs has kept me hooked. I want to learn more about Japan's present and past. I'm shocked that my school never taught us anything about this issue. My God, my teacher was in the navy for crying out loud yet he never taught us any of this.

I compeled to go out and get a book about this issue. Does anyone know of any good ones that explain this in a straight mannered way and isn't too one-sided?

Golgo_13 · 16 Jul 2004

"My God, my teacher was in the navy for crying out loud yet he never taught us any of this."

He also didn't teach you much about all the atrocities committes against the Native Inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere after the white Europeans arrived.

Maybe he should teach you what happened in his own country before he teaches about another.

canadian_kor · 16 Jul 2004

Wow, what a thread...

Anyhow, here is my two cents on this matter.

As someone above pointed out, atrocities happen all over the world. If you delve into world history you'll see that one ethnic group or state always commits horrible crimes against a neighbouring ethnic group or state. Yes, we should condemn this and do something to prevent things like these to take place again, but we should never just pick on one particular group (i.e., Germans and Japanese) as the really bad apple. Look at what the Mongols did during the middle ages. Raping, pillaging, and leaving wanton destruction all over Eurasia. Why aren't people from Europe and Asia seething in anger against them? (Is it perhaps because the Mongolians are not as prosperous now?) It seems that there is also a sense of jealousy when a group condemns another group for a past atrocity. I have to admit that though a LOT of terrible things did happen to my people (Koreans) during the colonization period, the Japanese did help create a more modern infrastructure. I remember hearing one time that when a person does a hundred good things to you, you will likely forget it, but when the same person does one bad thing to you, you will remember it forever. Just remember this when discussions like these pop up.

bossel · 16 Jul 2004

Soviet Soldier said:
Tibet was a part of China for long time until they declared independent then again got abosorbed by China. Go read more about history of China and you would find out just how long Tibet has been part of China even before the Tang dynasty.

I read more about the history of China & me seems before Tang Tibet was once in a while quite a strong empire itself. Even invaded China & conquered the capital Chang-An. I think, it was incorporated into the Mongolian empire later, but never was really part of China until the Manchurians built their empire around 1700. Even then it had always some sort of autonomy, if I remember correctly.

nikki_the_insane · 21 Jul 2004

Golgo_13 said:
"My God, my teacher was in the navy for crying out loud yet he never taught us any of this."

He also didn't teach you much about all the atrocities committes against the Native Inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere after the white Europeans arrived.

Maybe he should teach you what happened in his own country before he teaches about another.

I don't have him as a teacher anymore. That was back in 8th grade. (going into my sophmore year) I think either the public school system is corrupt or they just don't have the time and 'budget' to teach us all this.

Wang · 4 Aug 2004

Watcher, I see you are an "American". You're probably so proud of your ancestors who stole the whole continent called North America from the natives who lived there long before your ancestors came and killed them all and put them in reservations.

According to members of the Native American Holocaust Museum:
Over 300 million indigenous peoples were brutally tortured or murdered by an invasion of foreign forces in an act to exterminate the indigenous people so as to steal their land and resources. Those who were not exterminated were forcibly removed from their land (either at gunpoint, bayonet point, or forced treaties) and driven off to federal camps called reservations. (Native American Holocaust Museum, pg. 2)

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/v/w/vwf101/con.html

nikki_the_insane · 4 Aug 2004

Wang said:
Watcher, I see you are a "American". You're probably so proud of your ancestors who stole the whole continent called North America from the natives who lived there long before your ancestors came and killed them all and put them in reservations.

According to members of the Native American Holocaust Museum:
Over 300 million indigenous peoples were brutally tortured or murdered by an invasion of foreign forces in an act to exterminate the indigenous people so as to steal their land and resources. Those who were not exterminated were forcibly removed from their land (either at gunpoint, bayonet point, or forced treaties) and driven off to federal camps called reservations. (Native American Holocaust Museum, pg. 2)

So we should have just left them there on their own little continent by themselves. Living their old ways while the rest of the world can surround them with technology. The times change, the world changes and grows in population and in technology. At some point, we would have invaded North America anyway because it's a vast land that could hold more people. Yea, it's sad that we forced them into reservations at gunpoint, but I'm sure the evil ones are paying for it in hell now.

jeisan · 4 Aug 2004

Watcher said:
I am American, but here is the twist: I am also of Japanese descent, a sansei if you will.

I, myself, am a Japanese American...

wang, she's ABJ...

nikki read this book

Amazon.com: The Story of B (Ishmael Series) (9780553379013): Quinn, Daniel: Books

www.amazon.com

Glenn · 4 Aug 2004

Not to mention that he was pretty much making the same point as Wang. Read his post again. He isn't advocating the taking of land from the Native Americans; he's using it as a way to show poor logic on the part of another poster.

bossel · 4 Aug 2004

Wang said:
...the natives who lived there long before your ancestors came and killed them all and put them in reservations.

According to members of the Native American Holocaust Museum:
Over 300 million indigenous peoples were brutally tortured or murdered by an invasion of foreign forces in an act to exterminate the indigenous people so as to steal their land and resources.

300 million? Highly doubtful. At the time of Columbus' arrival there may have been around 75 million indians in North/Meso/South America combined. Most probably died from European diseases. In what is now the USA may have lived up to 5 (one estimate goes even up to 18) million indians.

In Watcher's profile she states that he is Asian American, how do you know that any of her ancestors were involved in any atrocities?

Wang · 4 Aug 2004

There isn't really an accurate number of Native Americans that got killed by the colonists.

In this other source for instance they talk about 100 million:
For four hundred years--from the first Spanish assaults against the Arawak people of Hispaniola in the 1490s to the U.S. Army's massacre of Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee in the 1890s--the indigenous inhabitants of North and South America endured an unending firestorm of violence. During that time the native population of the Western Hemisphere declined by as many as 100 million people. Indeed, as historian David E. Stannard argues in this stunning new book, the European and white American destruction of the native peoples of the Americas was the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world.

HistoryWiz Books: American Holocaust:

Anyway you turn it it were still hell of a many Native Americans!

Golgo_13 · 5 Aug 2004

One major difference between the Japanese invading Korea and the Europeans invading the Western Hemisphere.

The Koreans have their land back. The Indians don't.

canadian_kor · 6 Aug 2004

Golgo_13 said:
One major difference between the Japanese invading Korea and the Europeans invading the Western Hemisphere.

The Koreans have their land back. The Indians don't.

Also, the Japanese did help modernize the Korean infrastructure and economy to a degree. In North America you have many poor Natives living on reserves or out in the streets without a home. Here in Canada, Natives do not have to pay taxes and they are welcome to use the modernize infrastructure, but for some reason they do not and most of them just reside in the reserves. I read that only 1 % of the Canadian population is pure blooded Native.

stupidumboy · 10 Aug 2004

Korea and Japan newly opened diplomatic relationship to each other officially after Korean independence in 1945.

Both had reached an agreement and one of the substance was 対日資金請求権.
Instead Korea never asking about the past issue against Japan in government stand ,Japan agreed to support Korean economy developement plan directed by the admin of president Park Jung hee.
Both had different opinions to make the agreement because Korea wanted to claim damages under the Japanese reign and Japan wanted to consider that Korea was just part of Japan for 36 years.

Well both opinions were right actually.
Many Koreans had damages by harsh treatment such as foceful draft and ban of language but in different point of view, Japan constructed modern infrastructure and system in Korea.
While many Korean people had damages forcefully ,there were many numbers of korean people who benefited from Japan in different place ,they were mostly pro japanese people. and they are still remained in most influencial part of korean leaders in business,politics,education and medias.

for example,the current female head of korean conservative political party-hannara-is the daughter of ex korean president Park jung hee.
Park junghee served for japanese army as an officer in manchu.

The biggest Korean dailynewspaper-chosunilbo has a history to enchante tenno hirohito and encouraged young koreans to join the japanese military.

The biggest korean company-SAMSUNG-its former self was just 三星物産 that made a good surplus through the products intermediation between korean cheap labourers and japanese military.

Korea failed to punish these people after independence but they become the higestclass leaders and its too late to punish them now because they are practically move Korea at the moment.

Even the leftty roh administration cannot do anything easily without big enterprises support in korea.

TOO late.Its not the affair to ask Japan now but it became Korean domestic affair now.
Even the current biggest political party-woori - leader "chon jong bae" agreed with this idea when he had an interview with NHK recently.

It would be just very complicated as we are saying about the past things continuously.

*I never support Japanese reign or invasion of Korea and other Asian countries,but just want to avoid continusous tiring debates stick in the past .

nikki_the_insane · 11 Aug 2004

nikki read this book The Story of B

May I ask what it's about?

jeisan · 11 Aug 2004

its about catholic priest having to chase down the antichrist, but he ends up being converted so to speak. theres lots of reviwes on the amazon page. either way, B had a good point about native cultures in the book and i just didnt feel like typing it out. plus its just an interesting book, that i think people should read.

nikki_the_insane · 12 Aug 2004

jeisan said:
its about catholic priest having to chase down the antichrist, but he ends up being converted so to speak. theres lots of reviwes on the amazon page. either way, B had a good point about native cultures in the book and i just didnt feel like typing it out. plus its just an interesting book, that i think people should read.

I'll see if I can check it out next time I go to the library. Sounds interesting. ^_^

shiroma · 13 Aug 2004

金完燮

dsk_oz said:
KenUmedaira said:

One Korean writer Kim Wangsop published a book which tells the bright side of Japanese occupation

Click to expand...

What's the book name and publisher, I'd be interested in reading it

Title: 친일파를 위한 변명
Author: 김완섭

He is the defendant of a few criminal charges and civil cases now.

shiroma · 15 Aug 2004

dsk_oz said:
Everybody knows that the treaty exists .. but it wasn't done with the consent of the people, which is one reason a fairly large proportion of the population see Park as a traitor in that sense.

stupidumboy said:
Both had reached an agreement and one of the substance was 対日資金請求権.

KBS Unveils Classified Documents on S.Korea-Japan Normalization Talks

According to the records, Tokyo had proposed providing compensation to South Korean war victims per individual while Seoul counter-proposed it would accept a lump-sum payment, which was later found to be improperly distributed.

It seems to bash Park's military government is the recent trend, but using it as an excuse for asking Japan for further reparations would result in violation of the Agreement on the Settlement of Problem Concerning Property and Claims and on Economic Cooperation Between Japan and the Republic of Korea, Article 2 Section 1.

yutaka kaneshiro · 24 Sep 2004

you got a problem with my country?

Watcher said:
To Hanada Tatsu:

I see that you are from the US as well. Here is a message for you: Why are you so proud of Japan? Judging by your profile, you are one of those anime or video game otaku. Do you wish to be Japanese also? I cannot believe you base all your opinions about Japan and life on such things. I'm a big fan of Italian food, but would I base my opinions and life about Italy just because I am a fan of their food? Certainly not! There are far more aspects than just anime and video games, and those that can separate themselves from their hobbies in life and opinion are far more educated.

Dai Nihon, Great Japan, you say? I wonder if you are even aware of the sacrifice of your servicemen and women. Many died at the hands of the Japanese in an inhumane manner. I hope you know that you disdain those who sacrificed their lives and service members like me who protect your freedom day by day so you can live in peace in the US. Also, keep in mind that it doesn't matter how much you appreciate, love, and learn about Japan; the Japanese will never accept you as one of them, and you will always be a gaijin.

As an American, who lived in both Japan and Korea for quite some time, please allow me to share my viewpoints. What is interesting here is the fact that most people don't regard the Japanese colonization as a really terrible ordeal. They do not believe it was as bad as the Holocaust, which happened in Europe, due to the West's media influence. The Western World knows almost nothing about what truly happened in Asia at that period. Those who think that the Colonization is a "ho-hum yeah it was bad, but let's move on" is radically misinformed.

Firstly, Japan was responsible for the deaths of over 15 million people, almost three times the number of people who perished in the Holocaust. This included not only the people of the Japanese conquered territories but also the Prisoners of War. The inhumane acts were just as terrible if not worse than those committed by the Nazis: Medical experiments, massive murder, beheading for sport, use of comfort women, etc...Germany got what it deserved, and the Nazi criminals of war were tried and hanged at Nuremberg.

Many American, European, Australian, Asian, and other prisoners of war were treated inhumanely. To this day, many of the veterans who were POWs in the Japanese camps will forever hate the Japanese and never forgive them. I spoke with quite many veterans, and I do not blame them in some sense. Japanese soldiers, under the order of their commanders, killed POWs for spite. They loved to practice cutting heads with their swords, and their favourite targets were POWs of tall stature. Also favoured for "targets" were redheads, blondes, and anything other characteristics that were deemed "foreign". Very little, if any, food was given to POWs. They were also laboured to death, forced to endure torture, all for the Japanese's amusement.

At the end of the war, what punishment did Japan receive? Not much, really. Many were allowed to return to their lives without getting tried, and a lot of countries didn't care enough to make this a full matter; India dismissed the incident saying nothing really happened. Thus, though stripped of power, Emperor Hirohito was not really charged with war crimes, which is like Hitler being pardoned for the Holocaust.

The fact of the matter is that Japan as a nation has never repented to those it has wronged. Actions speak louder than words; simply saying "I'm sorry" doesn't mean one repents. If Japan really was regretful of its past, would it have allowed history books to cover up issues such as comfort women, the Rape of Nanjing, the science experiments on human beings, etc.? Wouldn't the nation think twice about paying tribute to war criminals at the Yasukuni Shrine? One cannot help but notice these are RECENT incidents.

Does Germany censor anything about Hitler and the Holocaust? Do they pay respects to war criminals? Are human rights violations against foreigner tolerated? Ask any German citizen today, and he/she will flatly state that their country has committed unforgivable atrocities during that era.
Thus it is easier for the Jews to forgive and forget the incident than those the Japanese conquered. It also doesn't help that the Western world and its media have only concentrated on the European aspects of WWII. Asia and the incidents there were clearly under the shadow.

Why do you believe it is mostly Korea's fault for not forgiving Japan? Certainly, through the actions, Japan has never repented. Why is such human rights violation being allowed against Koreans after the North Korean kidnapping incidents: threatening phone calls, screaming at, physical abuser, etc...
I can assure you that though there is racism in Korea against the Japanese, cases against human rights violations like those occurring in Japan seldom occur. I can provide many articles detailing the human rights violations against Koreans (also Americans and any other gaijin...or to be more polite...gaikokujin....yeah whatever) in Japan. How many can you provide me with such human rights violation incidents against Japanese and other foreign groups in Korea?

Though I believe that there are faults both of Japan and Korea, placing most of the blame on Korea is not the answer. Japan has clearly wronged many nations as well as their POWs.
Yes, I agree that the nations under Japanese occupation (namely Korea and China) can be hard-hearted when it comes to forgiving, but people of these nations have a valid reason to complain. Japan may have apologized in words, but definitely not through actions...as Germany has done. What is also interesting is that Japan blames its Asian neighbours for being stubborn about past mistakes. However, when North Korea wronged it on Japanese citizens' issues being kidnapped, Japan is the one being stubborn to forgive.

Take a look at the information and pictures of the following websites:

Permanent Exhibit on Japan's Aggression

Wayback Machine

War Disaster and Genocide

Japanese War Crimes Trials

Is this something easily forgivable? Are there any real differences between those pictures on the second website and those taken at the concentration camps in Europe? Was justice really served upon Japan? It clearly seems not.

Yet it seems Japan constantly reminds the world of their wrongdoings in history, and are quick to point the finger, IE the atomic bombs dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is also interesting that Japan blames its Asian neighbours for being stubborn about past mistakes. However, when North Korea wronged it on kidnapping Japanese citizens, Japan is the one being stubborn to forgive. No country is free of wrongdoings, but it becomes an issue when it will not admit to them.

While these were horrible acts, it pales compared to the number of atrocities the whole Empire of Japan committed during its occupation in Asia. Japan wants to forget and move on when it refers to its past actions. But it will not forgive and will be quick to point the wrongs of other nations and their histories.

Yeah, the nukes get over it, it been what over 60 years now, Japan and the u.s.are allies ok, and since you say you are military,
what division are you from the:u.s.a.f./u.s.m.c./u,s,n,/u.s.a./u,s,s,f,
if you don't like my country, then leave and don't come back ever; jeez, the rest
Here are nice and friendly people of your American military, even though here, they don't hate or resent us. Speaking of nice jeez, the ******,u.s.marines, the most deadly, most hateful and most powerful of the American military, loves us. Also, we Japanese people have changed. Would you like it if japan hated America for nuking us don't think so? You wouldn't want me to hate or kill your people over a 60-year-old war plus after your people have changed, plus an old regime is gone, you want someone to blame blame

Emperor Hirohito started ww2 with America and made us do those terrible things.

cicatriz esp · 24 Sep 2004

There are these old (and some not so old) guys in the U.S.' south that are still fighting the Civil War. A lot of people in this thread remind me of those guys.

yutaka kaneshiro · 25 Sep 2004

cicatriz esp said:
There are these old (and some not so old) guys in the U.S.' south that are still fighting the Civil War. A lot of people in this thread remind me of those guys.

Wow, a civil war between two countries,
and your off-topic gaijin!

Easy to Forget?

Omnipotence personified

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Kongming

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