Do transitive verbs always need 窶堙ｰ

[letslearn]

Hi guys,
Do you need to use the object marker を when ever you use a transitive verb.

For Example in the following sentence. Should it use it!
I'm trying to say. That team is responsible for communication network faults and maintenance between tokyo and Nagano.

これチームは東京と長野の間で通信網の故障や整備が引き受けます.


よろしくお願いします

 

[Toritoribe]

What made you use が?

 

[Morphling]

Do transitive verbs always need を

Same as English. You don't but you will be missing information.

I killed vs
I killed the cat

Grammatically I killed is fine but you don't know what the person killed.

As for 引き受ける, the subject is the person taking responsibility and should be marked by が and the job they are taking responsibility for is the object and must take を.

 

[letslearn]

What made you use が?

Because I wasn't sure if it needed to be physical object

 

[Toritoribe]

What do you think about the functions of が and を, in the first place? "I wasn't sure if I can use を here, well, then, I'll try to use が instead!"?? (Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, but it seems like so to me.)

 

[letslearn]

What do you think about the functions of が and を, in the first place? "I wasn't sure if I can use を here, well, then, I'll try to use が instead!"?? (Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, but it seems like so to me.)

I was using が to mark the subject of "maintenance and faults etc in the communications network"

My uncertainty was with the "maintenance and faults etc in the communications network" not being a simple tangible object.

When you have a sentence like 彼はボールを蹴った he kicked the ball it is a physical object getting acted on.

But as you and Morphlingsan have highlighted, the responsibility is being transferred or taken for the "maintenance and faults etc in the communications network"

 

[Toritoribe]

You might not understand the meanings/definitions of subject and object correcty. If 'が marks the subject of "maintenance and faults etc in the communications network"', the sentence MUST be ～が通信網の故障や整備（だ）.

BTW, 故障や整備を引き受ける doesn't have a nuance of "responsibility" well. I would use 責任を持つ instead. Try again. (There are another obvious grammatical error and a better-to-revise thing in your translation.)

 

[letslearn]

I'll try again.

これテームは (This team)
東京と長野の間に ( between Tokyo and Nagano )
通信網の故障や整備が (communication network faults and maintenance etc.)
責任を持つ (takes responsibility)

 

[Toritoribe]

通信網の故障や整備が (communication network faults and maintenance etc.)
責任を持つ (takes responsibility)

This clearly shows that my presumption "You don't seem to understand the meanings/definitions of subject and object" is correct. 故障や整備が責任を持つ means "faults and maintenance take responsibility". Read more carefully Morphling-san's explanation.

"Another obvious grammatical error" is the demonstrative at the beginning of the sentence.

 

[letslearn]

このテームが (This team)
東京と長野の間に ( between Tokyo and Nagano )
通信網の故障や整備を (of communication network faults and maintenance etc)
責任を持つ (takes responsibility)

 

[Toritoribe]

When the verb is 引き受ける, 整備を is correct. But, as for the verb 持つ, the object 責任 is already stated. You can't use two をs, thus, you need to use another paticle for 責任を持つ. Look up dictionary.

 

[letslearn]

When the verb is 引き受ける, 整備を is correct. But, as for the verb 持つ, the object 責任 is already stated. You can't use two をs, thus, you need to use another paticle for 責任を持つ. Look up dictionary.

When looking up 責任 in the dictionary it usually used 責任がある has responsibility so I take it the particle should be が in

このテームが (This team)
東京と長野の間に ( between Tokyo and Nagano )
通信網の故障や整備を (of communication network faults and maintenance etc)
責任が持つ (takes responsibility)

 

[Toritoribe]

責任がある has the same meaning as 責任を持つ, so there's no problem to use it, but you have to realize the obvious fact that ある and 持つ are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT verbs. 責任がある literally means "responsibility exists". As you can see, 責任 is the SUBJECT of ある, therefore the particle が is used here. Whereas 責任を持つ means "the subject has responsibility". 責任 is the OBJECT of 持つ, therefore the particle を is used in this case. You can't use 責任が持つ since it means "responsibility has something". Makes sense? Try again.

 

[letslearn]

I do understand what you are saying about the differences between 責任がある and 責任を持つ
But I got confused when you said I needed a different particle. Hence I wrote 責任が持つ。 just replacing the particle.

But I now understand that 責任が持つ would Need an object as in 責任が褒美を持つ responsibility has rewards....

Thank you for your patience it is greatly appreciated.

 

[nekojita]

Hint: in 通信網の故障や整備を責任を持つ it is the first を that needs changing. (second hint: there's a very common particle not yet discussed on this thread).

 

[Toritoribe]

Third Hint:
The same particle is used in both 責任を持つ and 責任がある. It indicates the target the subject has responsibility about.

 

[letslearn]

I think you could change that first を into the の possessive,
通信網の故障や整備の責任を持つ

 

[Toritoribe]

Yeah, の is not the best but acceptable. Another one?

 

[letslearn]

Yeah, の is not the best but acceptable. Another one?

に for target ?

 

[Toritoribe]

That's it! So, the translation is?

 

[letslearn]

Hopefully
このテームが東京と長野の間に通信網の故障や整備に責任を持つ
Thanks

 

[Toritoribe]

Very close. The particle after 間 should be で as in your initial translation. This で indicates the location where the action/movement is done.

Few more tips.
Both は and が are correct. The nuance is different, though.

東京長野間[かん] can be used instead of 東京と長野の間.

In your translation, 東京と長野の間で modifies 責任を持ちます as in "That team is responsible between tokyo and Nagano". This is not incorrect, but I think 東京長野間の通信網 "communication network between tokyo and Nagano" is more natural. And this is the reason why I use 東京長野間 here(to avoid using の repeatedly).

故障や整備 has no problem, but 保守管理 is the most common word faults and maintenance or like that.

～ている form should be used since the sentence expresses the present situation.

In conclusion, my translation is このチームは東京長野間の通信網の保守管理に責任を持っている。

 

[letslearn]

Toritoribe san,
ありがとうございます
also 通信網の保守管理に flows a lot easier when you are speaking.