COVID-19 Coronavirus: general discussion

[Lothor]

Another oddity is that the chinese markets dropped 8-9% today, but the rest of asia didn't.

I think that was because the Chinese market was trading for the first time after the Chinese new year and had been closed for 8-9 days beforehand, so it tanked as soon as it opened to reflect the losses that other stock markets had experienced while it was closed.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

Another oddity is that the chinese markets dropped 8-9% today, but the rest of asia didn't. And the US market futures are actually pointing up pretty strongly.

China's markets have been closed for the lunar new year and then some (extended lunar new year because of the virus).
As a result, they haven't had a chance to react until today, and of course, the Chinese economy is where the biggest
impact is right now. Many companies hit their daily maximum drop and were frozen from further trading until
tomorrow (or, well, today really. I'm pretty sure the markets are open already on that side of the world) and will
probably drop further.

American markets sold off hard on Friday, today was a "bounce", people buying stocks that they believe were
hit too hard by Friday's selling. America is also much less affected - America is cut off from travel to China, while
China is cut off from the world.

In any case, the American exchanges are down for the year, and have been falling since the 17th with coronavirus
fears being a large reason for that. Even so stocks will probably be up and down through the week and sell off hard
again on Friday -- short term traders don't want to risk being caught holding too many shares in case bad news breaks
over the weekend.

Both markets are behaving reasonably for their situation, and both are pricing in coronavirus fears.

 

[nice gaijin]

For updated numbers, check WuFlu.live

Something to consider is that the fomites (infectious particles) can cause infection for 5 days from a contaminated surface, and that infected individuals can be shedding the virus during the 5-7 day incubation period, during which that individual would be asymptomatic. People who think they're healthy are going to spread way more virus, so that's a pretty heinous attribute. I don't want to see any panics either, but i'm also a little surprised by how polarized the responses have been.

 

[johnnyG]

For some reading on the 1918 flu. Both the initial link and many of the comments are good:

 

[Deibiddo]

My conference in Seoul next week was cancelled on orders of the Korean education ministry (no gathering in educational institutions or something). It's been put back to June now.

The eikaiwa I work for is treating it like the plague and anyone who has even travelled with a Chinese airline has to report to HR and take two weeks off work. They've banned all travel to China as well and asked for any students to inform the company if they've been

 

[Eigo]

It'll all be over by March. Just use your common sense and go about your life as you usually would.

 

[yamcha]

This is what I am hearing from a friend whose family living right in Wuhan through some app called QQ. They have been quarantined in their own houses and that the Authorities are too busy picking up corpses on the street to even care about an accurate death count. And that this virus could be manmade. It is all hard to think about.

However, if Corona is made in a lab as some kind of bioweapon then this seriously violates international law and all tourism to and from China must be stopped and trade embargos must go up.

I personally, felt that when they announced that they would have a hospital up within 10 days that it is manmade. You can't build a full-service hospital in 10 days unless you have already had it in the plans. It needs a lot of planning from the blueprints to the contractors to assembling medical teams and hospital staff, etc.

The Coronavirus is not just another cold or flu bug, it responds to HIV medication...

What does that tell you?

 

[Deibiddo]

It could have been a modified virus they were using to experiment with, America has also done it from I've read. And it could be a bioweapon, but it has screwed up China a lot more than everyone else. It does seem less deadly than SARS at least.

Funny how you talk about contractors etc this is China we're talking about though, they can just order people around and threaten them with all sorts of things if they don't do what they're told. As for the blueprints, they could just copy another hospital? I also wouldn't want to be in there if there was an earthquake! I doubt it'd take more than a 4.0 without collapsing in on itself...

Also, having one disease respond to treatments used for another disease is nothing new and is done all the time. It seems to even be preferred as the side effects etc have already been studied somewhat and saves time compared to developing something completely new. HIV drugs has been used to treat alzheimers, what does that say about either disease?

- Alzheimer's may soon be treated with HIV drugs
- Drug Repositioning - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

We'll find out more as time goes on but it's not even anywhere near bad as ebola and maybe not even worse than the normal flu. Just take precautions and don't go to China, you'll most likely be fine

 

[yamcha]

My point with the hospital is that they already knew there would be an outbreak, obviously. Your links just show speculations about treating Alzheimer's and the definition of off-label drugs. Show me another flu that has responded to with HIV meds or any other kind of meds. There are no medicines to treat the flu, including vaccination.

Of course, no one will be going to China, you can't even get a flight in there now. The problem is those who are in other countries that a have already contracted the virus but are still within the incubation period.

 

[Deibiddo]

We're both just speculating about the hospital, but would you be so kind as to post the evidence for the use of HIV drugs? Those links I included were just for illustration if the point I was making that reusing drugs for other purposes is nothing unusual

 

[yamcha]

Here you go:

Flu and HIV Drugs Show Efficacy Against Coronavirus

Combining the medications improved conditions in patients with severe 2019-nCoV infections, say doctors in Thailand.

www.the-scientist.com

Cocktail of flu, HIV drugs appears to help fight coronavirus: Thai doctors - Physician's Weekly

By Panu Wongcha-um BANGKOK (Reuters) - Thai doctors have seen success in treating severe cases of the new coronavirus with combination of medications for flu and HIV, with initial results showing vast improvement 48 hours after applying the treatment, they said on Sunday. The doctors from...

www.physiciansweekly.com

Coronavirus: Thailand doctors use HIV plus flu drugs for treatment

Doctors at Rajavithi Hospital in Bangkok, Thailand have used a combination of HIV and flu drugs to treat patients infected with the new coronavirus.

www.pharmaceutical-technology.com

 

[Deibiddo]

If you look, the specific 'HIV drugs' being used now have been used to treat the coronavirus family for ages anyway

Role of lopinavir/ritonavir in the treatment of SARS: initial virological and clinical findings | Thorax

The point I'm making is that it appears to just be a coincidence

 

[yamcha]

You know that they also refused American and UN specialists asking to come in to help them too right?

I do not trust the Chinese. Human life is very cheap there. For them, saving face at the cost of a few hundred thousand or a million lives is a bargain.

 

[Deibiddo]

Well, I'm not surprised. I heard a rumour that there was actually a warning about this last year but they tried to sweep it under the rug... I wouldn't trust any government really. The Japanese government is trying to use this as an excuse to rewrite the constitution to overrule individual rights as well, that's why they were making a big show of how 'people can't be forced to be tested'

 

[yamcha]

I am not familiar with what you are saying as I don't live in Japan or follow their politics too much. I am American and though we have a much different constitution, our government also cannot be trusted.

Every government, including China and North Korea, allows its citizens the right to free speech and the right to protest and demonstrate. However, America is the only country that allows you to protest those rights with the right to bear arms but even this is being taken away.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I don't know about this theory of the novel coronavirus being bio-engineered as a weapon and escaping the lab...but I am pretty sure attempts to keep a virus in the lab are very easy to fail...all it takes is one moron and the human race is full of them...some wondering around with degrees and clearance levels they never really earned....but papa was rich so...

Anyway, keeping a virus in a lab is tough. Keeping one in a city is impossible. And so we have seen the virus travel around the world. What is interesting is that the deaths haven't. So far only two deaths outside of China. How to explain this?

I have a theory...and its just a theory. The theory is that, as with the Spanish Flu, the actual deaths are being caused by secondary bacterial infection....and it may be a particular bacteria in this case. And that bacteria may have spread around Wuhan hospitals as they overcrowded and patients got transferred around the city...as well as doctors and nurses working between different hospitals. But it has not managed to travel abroad because no one who had signs of the primary lung infection was allowed out, so the secondary infection could not be contracted and thereby spread.

Now that may sound a bit conspiracy-ish because one might ask why the authorities would not don't know it. Well, everyone must understand that most humans are not geniuses and even those with top degrees are usually just people who memorized information other people discovered. So, realizing there might be a particular bacteria flowing around Wuhan on top of the virus is going to take a special kind of person. And further, the person will have to be further special to actually go to the trouble of trying to isolate and thereby prove the concept. But, they will have to be EVER MORE special after the Chinese authorities punished the doctor who saw this all beginning and was threatened with punishment for "spreading rumors". I think my odds of winning the lottery might be better than such a person stepping up to the plate...and I don't even buy lottery tickets!

We will see...though it might take years to get the truth.

 

[johnnyG]

...

I have a theory...and its just a theory. The theory is that, as with the Spanish Flu, the actual deaths are being caused by secondary bacterial infection...

You call it a "theory", I call it BS internet posting.

The problem with attributing anything to the 1918 flu is that medicine was comparatively primitive then when considering both viruses and bacteria.

I'd suggest you read up on cytokine storm, which is a likely factor in the 1918 flu killing what was one of the otherwise healthiest parts of the population.

 

[yamcha]

The incubation of the Coronavirus is 2 weeks and there was a 10 days period of free travel before the whole area was quarantined. That means that cases should be popping up in most of the major Chinese cities like in a couple of days or maybe even now. The Chinese usually hide their numbers. If it is a secondary bacterial infection then that might be a good thing since antibiotics can treat bacteria and not viruses.

 

[yamcha]

You call it a "theory", I call it BS internet posting.

The problem with attributing anything to the 1918 flu is that medicine was comparatively primitive then when considering both viruses and bacteria.

I'd suggest you read up on cytokine storm, which is a likely factor in the 1918 flu killing what was one of the otherwise healthiest parts of the population.

BS internet posting, great. People are not allowed to voice their theories now? Cytokines do not have much to do with the Coronavirus as inflammation is not listed as one of the symptoms. Show me where excessive cytokine production is found. I suggest you settle down.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

The problem with attributing anything to the 1918 flu is that medicine was comparatively primitive then when considering both viruses and bacteria.

Get a clue. The point is the pneumonia and viral pneumonia is well known to be a risk for secondary bacterial infection since before and after 1918. I spoke about that earlier.

Anyway, 1918 is not quite gone. Research with samples continues even today. Spanish flu research - Wikipedia

I'd suggest you read up on cytokine storm, which is a likely factor in the 1918 flu killing

Likely? And you call my theory BS based on what you think is "likely" about something that was only part of the evidence I cited? What about everything else I cited?

And even if cytokine storm is an issue, it could be triggered by either a viral or bacterial infection. But once again I point out the mass deaths are only happening in Wuhan only despite the virus having traveled nationally and internationally. And all you have done is cite an effect where I was citing a cause and that is your basis for calling BS on what I clearly defined as my own theory?

The BS posting was yours. You might have a sand infection somewhere. Jesus.

 

[thomas]

Gentlemen, can you please keep it civil and refrain from personal attacks? There is no need to get emotional over microbes.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

If it is a secondary bacterial infection then that might be a good thing since antibiotics can treat bacteria and not viruses.

Anti-biotics are not guaranteed to work plus treating both a viral and a bacterial infection at the same time is never a good thing AFAIK. Plus I think treating a bacterial infection in the lungs is about the worst place to try and treat one, but that is based only my recognition of the lungs being a bunch of hollow cavities within a hollow cavity rather than a solid mass.

And I just had a thought....fungal infection. I will have to look into that. Never heard of a lung fungal infection but I do know fungal infections are especially nasty.

Edit: Yup. Its a thing. Fungal Lung Infections | Symptoms and Treatment

 

[yamcha]

Well, they are using HIV medicine to treat it so it makes me wonder just what the hell it really is.

 

[Deibiddo]

I posted a link to a scientific publication where they also used HIV medication to treat SARS, it's nothing new for the coronavirus family

 

[yamcha]

Anti-biotics are not guaranteed to work plus treating both a viral and a bacterial infection at the same time is never a good thing AFAIK. Plus I think treating a bacterial infection in the lungs is about the worst place to try and treat one, but that is based only my recognition of the lungs being a bunch of hollow cavities within a hollow cavity rather than a solid mass.

And I just had a thought....fungal infection. I will have to look into that. Never heard of a lung fungal infection but I do know fungal infections are especially nasty.

Edit: Yup. Its a thing. Fungal Lung Infections | Symptoms and Treatment

I did find out something fascinating though. Sugar helps some antibiotics to work much better:
Sugar Helps Antibiotics Trick and Kill Deadly Bacteria

Someone I know was battling prostatitis for months with minimal effect but after taking Bactrim with a tablespoon of sucrose every morning and night, he started feeling a difference after the first day and his symptoms almost completely cleared up very in 72 hours and have not come back. Bactrim, by the way was the original antibiotic he was prescribed. The prescription was changed at least 3 times.

Edit: Even though adding sugar worked, he did finish the 28-day prescription even though he felt super after a week.