Consecutive は usage in the same clause/subclause

UsoToChinmoku · 29 Jan 2016

OK, so I realize that there are sentence structures where you can use は consecutively without any issues. For example:

原稿の仕上げは今日は無理だけど、明日は絶対間に合う。

In this case the first は is the topic marker, and the other two are used for 区別/対比的に取り立てて示す。

But what if you chain several はs that act purely as topic markers? For example, I was talking to an acquaintance today (we were discussing "soul searching") and she said to me (in English): "I wish I could do that like you..."
My intention was to ask why does she only "wish", so: 「I wish」って純子は自分探しするのが怖いからしようともしないというわけなの？ But then I realized that the "って" stands for "というのは", so what happens is that there are two consecutive topic markers:
1) 「I wish」というのは、純子は、自分探しするのが怖いからしようともしないというわけなの？
Is this grammatical? I mean there are other ways to reword it, which I actually did since I wasn't sure whether it's correct, for example 2)「I wish」という言葉遣いによれば、純子は自分探しするのが怖いからしようともしないというわけなの？
But I'm just curious in general can I chain topic marker はs like in 1). Should I avoid this syntax?

Toritoribe · 29 Jan 2016

Those rewordings don't work well. I would say 「I wish」を使うってことは. As for two はs in a sentence, see the following thread (thus, 純子は has a contrastive nuance such like "unlike me").

この机は私にはちょっと低い。 Help, please. | Japan Forum

UsoToChinmoku · 29 Jan 2016

I read the whole thread you linked to. You really had your fun with the number of examples xD
Well, I hadn't heard the grammatical concept of "副題" so I learned that, but as I illustrated with my first example, I'm aware that contrastive markers can be chained together with topic markers.

The problem is whether we are able to have, for example, a 主題 within 主題 within a 主題, which I assume we can't since other two particles will be interpreted as contrastive?
F.E.: 「I wish」を使うってことは、純子は、自分探しするのは怖いからだろう。
The first one is a 主題 marker, the others are automatically interpreted as contrastive markers (副題？), even if, for arguments sake, I never intended for them to be contrastive?

By the way, why doesn't the 「I wish」という言葉遣いによれば～ work well? (or という言い方によれば)

Toritoribe · 31 Jan 2016

「I wish」を使うってことは、自分探しをするのが怖いからしようとしないってことなの？ is the most common way to say it. You add 純子は, which is not necessary, so 純子 is emphasized just by this. Similarly, 自分探しするのは automatically gives the contrastive nuance, since you intentionally use は instead of the most common が.

～ということは/～ってことは is a structure for explanation/definition there. The rest of the sentence 純子は自分探しするのが怖いからしようともしない is the explanation why she used "I wish".

UsoToChinmoku · 31 Jan 2016

Toritoribe said:
「I wish」を使うってことは、自分探しをするのが怖いからしようとしないってことなの？ is the most common way to say it. You add 純子は, which is not necessary, so 純子 is emphasized just by this. Similarly, 自分探しするのは automatically gives the contrastive nuance, since you intentionally use は instead of the most common が.

OK, so what it ultimately boils down to is that, you can use はs consecutively in the same clause/subclause, but you can only have one true topic marker (主題)? The rest are always contrastive 副題? Although, according to the wording, both are some sort of 題. So from a linguistic perspective, even the contrastive ones are (sub)topic markers? They simply have a different nuance?

Toritoribe said:
～ということは/～ってことは is a structure for explanation/definition there. The rest of the sentence 純子は自分探しするのが怖いからしようともしない is the explanation why she used "I wish".

I understand why your example is good, I just wasn't sure what was wrong with mine. My version is still natural/usable though? Yours is just more fitting, no?

Toritoribe · 31 Jan 2016

UsoToChinmoku said:
OK, so what it ultimately boils down to is that, you can use はs consecutively in the same clause/subclause, but you can only have one true topic marker (主題)? The rest are always contrastive 副題? Although, according to the wording, both are some sort of 題. So from a linguistic perspective, even the contrastive ones are (sub)topic markers? They simply have a different nuance?

Yes, those are the topic marker. は can be the contrastive marker just by a single は.
e.g.
日曜日はよく雨が降る。（＝ほかの曜日はそうでもないけど。）

UsoToChinmoku said:
I understand why your example is good, I just wasn't sure what was wrong with mine. My version is still natural/usable though? Yours is just more fitting, no?

「I wish」という言葉遣い is just the basis of your guess about her, not your guess itself. 「I wish」という言葉遣いからすると works fine.
cf.
天気予報によれば、この後雨が降るらしい。
雲の動きからすると、この後雨が降るらしい。
(It's close to "according to" vs. "judging from". You don't say "according to the wording 'I wish'" in this context, right?)

UsoToChinmoku · 31 Jan 2016

Toritoribe said:
Yes, those are the topic marker. は can be the contrastive marker just by a single は.
e.g.
日曜日はよく雨が降る。（＝ほかの曜日はそうでもないけど。）

So, to reiterate: There can only be one main topic marker (主題) and it can be both non-contrastive, or contrastive if it's the single topic marker in the sentence as used in the above example.
All secondary topic marker (副題) はs have a contrastive function.

Toritoribe said:
「I wish」という言葉遣い is just the basis of your guess about her, not your guess itself. 「I wish」という言葉遣いからすると works fine.
cf.
天気予報によれば、この後雨が降るらしい。
雲の動きからすると、この後雨が降るらしい。
(It's close to "according to" vs. "judging from". You don't say "according to the wording 'I wish'" in this context, right?)

Damn. That didn't even cross my mind. I've been using those without thinking too much about the nuance.

UsoToChinmoku · 1 Feb 2016

Lol what the hell, your last post disappeared. I still have the notice that was sent to my e-mail with all the content though. I'll just paste it here for reference:

Yes. What the speaker emphasized is one of the 副題, and it's determined by the context, not the order of the 副題. For instance, I think what you wanted to say would be "純子 was afraid of soul searching unlike you or other people", and not "純子 was afraid of soul searching, but she was not afraid of other things" in your context. Thus, 純子 has the stronger contrastive nuance.

Here's another example.
1)
彼は週末は仕事はしないらしい。その分平日深夜まで働いている。
2)
彼は週末は仕事はしないらしい。
朝から晩まで釣りばかりしている。

In #1, "週末 vs. 平日" is the main contrast, and 週末は仕事以外のことをする is not what the speaker wants to say. Similarly, "仕事 vs. 釣り" is the main contrast, and not 平日仕事する in #2.

I'm a bit confused.

>it's determined by the context, not the order of the 副題.
Yeah, this I knew. But,

>What the speaker emphasized is one of the 副題
Which sentence are you referring to here? Because 日曜日はよく雨が降る" only has a 主題 marker, although it's contrastive. Or do linguists always call contrastive はs 副題 even if it's the main and only marker？And...

>1)彼は週末は仕事はしないらしい。その分平日深夜まで働いている。
2)彼は週末は仕事はしないらしい。朝から晩まで釣りばかりしている。

1) - "週末 vs. 平日" is the main contrast, but 仕事（は） still has a contrastive function as well?
2) - "仕事 vs. 釣り" is the main contrast, but 週末(は） still has a contrastive function as well?
It's just the matter of which has a STRONGER contrastive nuance? Since there can only be one non-contrastive topic marker, but there's no limit to the amount of contrastive markers?

mdchachi · 1 Feb 2016

UsoToChinmoku said:
Lol what the hell, your last post disappeared

Yes we had a database issue and had to restore and a few posts were lost in the process. Sorry.

Toritoribe · 1 Feb 2016

UsoToChinmoku said:
Which sentence are you referring to here?

I'm talking about the cases of two or more 副題, thus, 「I wish」を使うってことは、純子は、自分探しするのは怖いからだろう。 and my two examples in my disappeared post.
週末は仕事以外のことをする is not what the speaker wants to say in #1, but this is suggested by 仕事は. The same goes to #2. 平日は仕事する is not the main issue, but suggested by 週末は.

UsoToChinmoku · 1 Feb 2016

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thanks for everything.

Consecutive は usage in the same clause/subclause

UsoToChinmoku

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

UsoToChinmoku

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

UsoToChinmoku

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

UsoToChinmoku

後輩

UsoToChinmoku

後輩

mdchachi

Moderator

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

UsoToChinmoku

後輩

Similar threads