Conjecture relating to the self

[Glenn]

I know that if I say これが分からないようだ it can only mean that I think someone else doesn't understand, so I had figured that the conjecture words all worked that way, but it seems that らしい can be used for yourself. For example, これが分からないらしい could mean "it seem I don't understand this," right? Just checking, because I'm pretty sure I've seen it used this way recently.

Also, could I use だろう for "I probably don't/wouldn't understand this?" I'm assuming はずだ is fine, but how about it? これが分からないはずだ --> "I'm sure I don't/wouldn't understand this." Actually, in these cases would the "wouldn't" interpretation be more natural?

I'm guessing that そうだ of conjecture, like ようだ, is out: *これが分からなそうだ。And I assume そうだ of hearsay has to be out: *これが分からないそうだ。Those are all of the ones I can think of at the moment.

So, to sum up the question, when referring to yourself only らしい, だろう, and はずだ are acceptable, and with だろう and はずだ the most natural interpretation is future tentative -- i.e., "would." Is this correct?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I know that if I say これが分からないようだ it can only mean that I think someone else doesn't understand,

I'm not so sure about that. I can think of instances where this might work referring to oneself. For example, if you thought you understood something, but you were just shown that you don't understand it as well as you thought, you could say that about yourself with a translation of, "It seems I don't understand this (after all.)

so I had figured that the conjecture words all worked that way, but it seems that らしい can be used for yourself. For example, これが分からないらしい could mean "it seem I don't understand this," right? Just checking, because I'm pretty sure I've seen it used this way recently.

I've seen this, too.

Also, could I use だろう for "I probably don't/wouldn't understand this?" I'm assuming はずだ is fine, but how about it? これが分からないはずだ --> "I'm sure I don't/wouldn't understand this." Actually, in these cases would the "wouldn't" interpretation be more natural?

How about something like, 私にこんなことが分かるはずがないだろう！ I'm pretty certain this is acceptable.

I'm guessing that そうだ of conjecture, like ようだ, is out: *これが分からなそうだ。

I think this is out, too.

And I assume そうだ of hearsay has to be out: *これが分からないそうだ。Those are all of the ones I can think of at the moment.

I can think of times you could use this, although it would either be ironic or some kind of joke involving extraordinary circumstances....

 

[Glenn]

I'm not so sure about that. I can think of instances where this might work referring to oneself. For example, if you thought you understood something, but you were just shown that you don't understand it as well as you thought, you could say that about yourself with a translation of, "It seems I don't understand this (after all.)[/quote]

Actually, I did use it with that intention, and I was corrected by two native speakers: one of them was my 文章表現 teacher.

How about something like, 私にこんなことが分かるはずがないだろう！ I'm pretty certain this is acceptable.

I believe so too. I guess that means that the inverse こんなことが分かるはずだぞ works when referring to yourself as well (as awkward as that sentence may be).

I think this is out, too.I can think of times you could use this, although it would either be ironic or some kind of joke involving extraordinary circumstances....

Ah, now that you mention it I could see that too, but I was mainly thinking about more normal situations.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Actually, I did use it with that intention, and I was corrected by two native speakers: one of them was my 窶｢ﾂｶﾂ湘坂?｢\ﾅ陳ｻ teacher.

Oh, well, I don't think I would use it in writing! Speach only!

 

[Glenn]

I see. Is this another of those joke situations, or just for use in casual conversation? For writing, how about これが分からない模様である?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I think it's just for casual conversation. It seems to me to have the nuance that you're not quite convinced that you don't understand it, but there is evidence to the contrary. Again, this could easily become ironic or sarcastic if one is not careful!

分からない模様である !! hahaha, I don't think I'Ve EVER come across something like this! It strikes me as funny...although I don't know why.

Or how about this expression:
この日本語の意味は、分かっているようで分かっていないような感じですね。大体分かると思いますが、まだつかめないニュアンスがあるらしいですよ。

 

[Glenn]

Glad I could entertain you.

That looks good to me, but what if instead of まだ摑めないニュアンスがあるらしいですよ it were まだ摑めないニュアンスがあるようですよ. Somehow the latter strikes me as unnatural at best.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

It seems like an awful lot of よう if you put three in a row like that, doesn't it? I think that the よう that you propose would be fine, but not in this context, if only because of よう overkill. You know how in English it's bad to be too repetitive? I think that the same dynamic works to a certain degree in Japanese.

 

[Glenn]

Good point.

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[Karamuucho]

It sounds to me like a situation where you would talk about yourself in the third-person, which even in English, is confusing to people that are listening to you and don't understand the situation.

 

[Glenn]

I'm assuming you mean the ようだ situation. ("Speaking of that, I was.")