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Confusion on 見つける and 見つかる, indicative and potential

ravenlynn

後輩
22 Jun 2013
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Hi,

I am trying to say I can't find my book. I thought 見つけられない would be correct (active, potential, negative). However, Denshi Jisho is giving it as 見つからない (passive, indicative, negative). How can this be? Also, how would I then say, "the book is not found".?


Find sentences - Denshi Jisho

Thanks for any help.
 
見つからない is not passive. It's a negative form of an intransitive verb 見つかる.
本を見つけられない and 本が見つからない are both correct. The former focuses more on the existence of the person who is looking for the book or inability to find the book, comparing to the latter one.
 
Sorry, but I am more confused now. How can an intransitive indicative be the same as a transitive potential? Also how can "find" take an indirect object?

This is how I learned verbs before:
見つける to find
見つけない to not find
見つけられる can find
見つけられない can not find
見つける事ができない can not find

見つかる to be found
見つからない to not be found
見つかれる can be found
見つかれらない can not be found
見つかる事ができない can not be found

Which part is wrong?

Thanks
 
This is how I learned verbs before:
見つける to find
見つけない to not find
見つけられる can find
見つけられない can not find
見つける事ができない can not find

見つかる to be found
見つからない to not be found
見つかれる can be found
見つかれらない can not be found
見つかる事ができない can not be found
The last three. Where did you learn those? We native speakers never say those in any situations.
 
Sorry, but I am more confused now. How can an intransitive indicative be the same as a transitive potential? Also how can "find" take an indirect object?

This is how I learned verbs before:
見つける to find
見つけない to not find
見つけられる can find
見つけられない can not find
見つける事ができない can not find

見つかる to be found
見つからない to not be found
見つかれる can be found
見つかれらない can not be found
見つかる事ができない can not be found

Which part is wrong?

Thanks
見つかる is a non-volitional unaccusative verb(非対格動詞 in Japanese grammar), so it can have neither the potential form nor the passive form. (The negative potential form should be 見つかれない, if it exists, since the potential form of a verb conjugates as an ichidan verb.) As in the wiki page I linked above, the subject of 見つかる is equivalent to the direct object of the transitive counterpart 見つける semantically. 見つかられない is the negative passive form, but this doesn't exist, either.
In contrast, 見つける is a volitional verb, so the negative form 本を見つけない expresses the speaker's will not to find the book, something like "I'm not going to find the book". 本を見つけられない, on the other hand, expresses a state "not being able to find the book". This is almost the same as 本が見つからない. (本が見つからない is also a state.)
 
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The last three. Where did you learn those? We native speakers never say those in any situations.

These are some of the places where I was sending her for help with verb conjugation. They all list mitsukeru as "to find" and mitsukaru as "to be found" and give passive and potential conjugations for both of them. I am amazed and saddened to find that they are all wrong. :(

Conjugation of Japanese verb mitsukaru - to be found

Japanese verb inflecter

見つかる,mitsukaru,be foundjapanese sentence patterns |sayinjapanese.somee.com

Conjugations for みつかる [mitsukaru] - Tanoshii Japanese

Japanese (romaji) verb mitsukaru conjugated in all tenses.

Kanji Dictionary

見つかる - LingWiki

Also the following print dictionaries list mitsukeru as "to find" and mitsukaru as "to be found" :

Kodansha's English-Japanese Dictionary (Kodansha Int. 1996, page 215)

Super Review Japanese Verbs (REA, 2002, page 89)

501 Japanese verbs 2nd ed (Barron's, 1988 pages 306, 307)


見つかる is a non-volitional unaccusative verb(非対格動詞 in Japanese grammar), so it can have neither the potential form nor the passive form. (The negative potential form should be 見つかれない, if it exists, since the potential form of a verb conjugates as an ichidan verb.) As in the wiki page I linked above, the subject of 見つかる is equivalent to the direct object of the transitive counterpart 見つける semantically. 見つかられない is the negative passive form, but this doesn't exist, either.
In contrast, 見つける is a volitional verb, so the negative form 本を見つけない expresses the speaker's will not to find the book, something like "I'm not going to find the book". 本を見つけられない, on the other hand, expresses a state "not being able to find the book". This is almost the same as 本が見つからない. (本が見つからない is also a state.)

Do you know of a link to a list of other Japanese verbs that are like that, and how they conjugate? Or is there an easy rule to spot them? Because I would have never guessed that conjugating mitsukaru as an intransitive indicative would actually have a meaning of a transitive potential.

Thanks!

edit note: fixed typos, added additional defective print references.
 
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Those sites just output the conjugation forms automatically whether it really exists or not, or, makes sense or not.

見つかる is not passive IN JAPANESE, but it's equivalent to "to be found" IN ENGLISH.

Some linguists propose several ways how to check whether an intransitive verb is unaccusative or unergative, but I think there is no list of the verbs or something like that.
 
Ah, that explains it., and clears up the confusion. I'll dig more into unaccusative or unergative. Thanks!
 
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