Confused over the で particle

T

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

4 Feb 2005

765

27

• 10 Oct 2005

• #1

I have just learnt (via Pimsleur III) that to say "Nara is famous for its old temples" you say:

奈良は古いお寺で有名です
nara ha furui otera de yuumei desu

What is the purpose of the で particle here? I thought it was suppose to mark the location of an action, or the means of doing something, but from what I can tell, there ain't no action or means taking place here.

 

Elizabeth

先輩

22 Apr 2003

9,839

135

• 10 Oct 2005

• #2

Just as you said, it translates best as "for," somewhat weak causal relationship, or "because of," due to. Sometimes you can substitue "no tame ni," but in this case not.

Ooyuki de (no tame ni), kono doa ha sotogawa kara shika akanai desu.ﾂ

Because of the heavy snow, we can only open this door from the outside.

All of the particles have at minimum 2-3 usages.

 

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

10 Nov 2004

4,354

179

• 10 Oct 2005

• #3

It's hard to explain the use of "de" for me, because I never studied Japanese grammar extensively...

But according to Tae Kim (Learn Japanese – Tae Kim's Guide to Learning Japanese ), "de" is translated best as "by way of."

So, the literal translation of the sentence is: Nara is famous "by way of" old temples. (This suggests "means")

Does this make sense?

 

T

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

4 Feb 2005

765

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• 10 Oct 2005

• Thread starter
• #4

Yep, I get it now!

As for Nara, by means of old temples it is famous.

Thanks Elizabeth, epigne.

 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Twenty-year veteran

15 Mar 2002

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2,298

• 10 Oct 2005

• #5

For goodness sake, please don't get into the habit of glossing Japanese into English like that. Understand it for what it is, as it is, where it is. If you absolutely must translate it into English, phrase it naturally.

 

T

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

4 Feb 2005

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• 10 Oct 2005

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• #6

mikecash said:

For goodness sake, please don't get into the habit of glossing Japanese into English like that. Understand it for what it is, as it is, where it is. If you absolutely must translate it into English, phrase it naturally.

Click to expand...

Fire up! To each their own, remember.

 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Twenty-year veteran

15 Mar 2002

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• 10 Oct 2005

• #7

Indeed, to each their own. I take no offense if you join the incredibly long line of people who ignore my advice.

 

T

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

4 Feb 2005

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• 10 Oct 2005

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• #8

Well, if making an exact translation is so bad, then why was I suddenly able to understand what was going on when it was translated that way? I don't know how long you've been studying Japanese for, but for people like me just starting out we need to know the purpose of all those pesky little particles so we can put together other similar sentences, otherwise we won't know to use them in that way.

 

Elizabeth

先輩

22 Apr 2003

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• 10 Oct 2005

• #9

Another function of で is to indicate a set period of time -- "奈良まで３０分で行けます。
which just has to be memorized, really. I don't think there's a good way to force think that into 'in' meaning place or 'by way of.'

And how about the slightly different sense of it in this sentence :

日本語の勉強（をするの）で、最も難しい事は何でしょうか？

or for that matter で as used in 中で ? ....

 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Twenty-year veteran

15 Mar 2002

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• 10 Oct 2005

• #10

Bucko said:

Well, if making an exact translation is so bad, then why was I suddenly able to understand what was going on when it was translated that way? I don't know how long you've been studying Japanese for, but for people like me just starting out we need to know the purpose of all those pesky little particles so we can put together other similar sentences, otherwise we won't know to use them in that way.

Click to expand...

Doing it when first learning a new item isn't harmful. Notice that I suggested you not get in the habit of doing it....not that you not do it at all.

Once you do have it, though,..."Understand it for what it is, as it is, where it is." ...without translating it. Think about it: In order to translate it, you have to understand it. If you understand it, why translate it?

Use translations sparingly as a learning tool. Otherwise the translation process becomes a habit and needlessly interferes with producing your own speech in Japanese and in understanding that of others.

 

T

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

4 Feb 2005

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• 10 Oct 2005

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• #11

mikecash, I will take your advice, but when I feel ready for it. I've only been studying this language for 10 months or so and have only recently been able to have semi-decent conversations with people. I'm hoping by this time next year I won't be translating. I understand where you're coming from, it's just that, yeah, I'm not quite at that stage yet.

 

Damicci

先輩

4 Nov 2003

2,479

52

• 11 Oct 2005

• #12

mikecash said:

Indeed, to each their own. I take no offense if you join the incredibly long line of people who ignore my advice.

Click to expand...

I like your advice mike.
Like you bucko I have developed bad habits that I am trying to break. But if you can learn it by viewing your mistakes that is a great tool also.

as they say to error is human or something like that.

 

S

studyonline

後輩

2 Jul 2005

84

2

• 11 Oct 2005

• #13

Mastering the use of 助詞 is one of the hardest for foreigners. It is also hard for me to explain as well. The best way to do is to memorize each occasion of those usages.

で can be for, at, in, among, within, to, etc. It's also for time or location.

good luck

 

Elizabeth

先輩

22 Apr 2003

9,839

135

• 11 Oct 2005

• #14

The most difficult part of で for me is when it isn't required, but only used for emphasis limiting your discussion to a particular time frame or group.
Such as 最近では instead of just 最近 or as a subject marker, after personal referents (自分では、若い人で).

 

S

studyonline

後輩

2 Jul 2005

84

2

• 12 Oct 2005

• #15

難しいな・・・。 文法解説書的な説明は、私にはできませんが、幾つかの例を挙げてみようと思います。

最近は、とても暑い。

最近では、とても暑い。

The difference between them is one thing. The second sentence has omitted some info that the first one doesn't have; thus で can indicate something specific. The first sentence is "It's very hot lately (these days)." The second one is "Among the recent days, it's very hot today."

最近では indicates the comparison of other days in this case.

--------------------------------------------------------------
自分は、それをする事ができない。

自分では、それをする事ができない。

The first is "I can't do it." The second is also the same meaning, but it's possible that you can imply that "someone may be able to do it."

Elizabeth さん, I hope that was your question. In any case, the meaning should not change so much. Such a subtle thing can be carefully treated in a thesis at a college or university. To those Japanese who didn't learn how to write 小論文, small cases like this is easily overlooked.