China Discovers the New World...?

stupidumboy · 26 Sep 2004

1492: The Prequel

Chinese blood? Some inhabitants of the African island of Pate believe they're descended from Chinese sailors.

1492: The Prequel

Decades before Columbus, Zheng He sailed from China with 300 ships and 28,000 men. His fleet got as far as Africa and could have easily reached America, but the Chinese turned back. What happened?

Maciamo · 26 Sep 2004

stupidumboy said:
Chinese blood? Some inhabitants of the African island of Pate believe they're descended from Chinese sailors.

It could have been from more recent immigration, such as the Indians in South Africa or Malaysia.

However, I also heard of this story that the Chinese had huge ocean-faring ships which reached Africa about 500 years ago.

That link explains how demesurely big he largest Chinese ship (400 feet long, or 4,5 times longer than Columbus's) was, although I can't believe the proportions on the picture (especially the size of the sails and depth of the hull, compared to Columbus' ship - just nonsense, it would be as high as a skyscraper !) :

1492 the Prequel said:
The sophistication of Zheng He's fleet underscores just how far ahead of the West the East once was. Indeed, except for the period of the Roman Empire, China had been wealthier, more advanced and more cosmopolitan than any place in Europe for several thousand years.

Except the Roman empire, and until the 16th century ? That only leaves 1000 years, which are called the Middle Ages (or Dark Ages) in Europe. No wonder. I also doubt that China was more cosmopolitan, with the Arabs in Spain, the Turks in South-Eastern Europe, and otherwise a mix of Latin, Germanic, Celtic, Slavic and Finno-Hungaric Europeans.

1492 the Prequel said:
Hangzhou, for example, had a population in excess of a million during the time it was China's capital (in the 12th century), and records suggest that as early as the 7th century, the city of Guangzhou had 200,000 foreign residents: Arabs, Persians, Malays, Indians, Africans and Turks. By contrast, the largest city in Europe in 1400 was probably Paris, with a total population of slightly more than 100,000.

Maybe, but Rome also had one million inhabitants between the 1st and 4th or 5th century. Even cities like Sparta or Athens in the 5th or 4th century BC has about 200,000 inhabitants. That shows how parcelled Europe was during feudal times.

Interesting article nevertheless.

stupidumboy · 26 Sep 2004

Maciamo said:
It could have been from more recent immigration, such as the Indians in South Africa or Malaysia.

But if it was the more recent planned notable sized immigration ,They must have been living with making more prominent ethnical group and the majority local people should know about the root of their history much better than the interview.

Maciamo · 26 Sep 2004

stupidumboy said:
But if it was the more recent planned notable sized immigration ,They must have been living with making more prominent ethnical group and the majority local people should know about the root of their history much better than the interview.

Yes, so that is possible. That is what I said when I admitted the possibility of the Chinese reaching Africa at that time.

stupidumboy said:
Decades before Columbus, Zheng He sailed from China with 300 ships and 28,000 men. His fleet got as far as Africa and could have easily reached America, but the Chinese turned back. What happened?

I have found this regarding the Spanish Armada about 150 years after Zheng He's fleet.

The fleet numbered over 130 ships, making it by far the greatest naval fleet of its age. According to Spanish records, 30,493 men sailed with the Armada, the vast majority of them soldiers.

By comparing the number of men (30,500 Spaniards vs 28,000 Chinese), I doubt that Chinese ships were really so large, because they had over twice more of them and a bit less men. So in average Spanish ships (like Columbus' caravelle, except that they were bigger man-o-wars or converted merchant ships). Anyway, the comparison between Columbus's first and cheap Caravelle (an exploration ship) with military or merchant ships is pointless. Even if Zheng He's biggest ship was really bigger than any man-o-war, frigate or whatever, it probably wasn't that much bigger (certainly not like on the drawing, which reminds me of that map where China is huge and the rest of the world tiny - just propaganda).

stupidumboy · 26 Sep 2004

stupidumboy said:
今日的科倫坡只是一個小海港。當時錫蘭科提王國的首都就在這里。鄭和登上了錫蘭海岸，當地官員、僧侶、商人（包括中國商人）在碼頭歡迎中國船隊的到來。鄭和對錫蘭佛寺進行布施，并立下碑記。碑文中寫道：窶?#35641;以金銀織錦、紡絲寶幡、香爐花瓶、表里燈燭等物，布施佛寺以充供養，惟世尊鑒之。窶?#20107;隔500余年后，該碑在錫蘭島加里鎮發現，現保存于斯里蘭卡博物館中。碑文是用漢文、泰米爾文及波斯文所刻。它不僅是中斯兩國友好交往的珍貴文物，而且是鄭和登上錫蘭海岸，并在錫蘭佛寺進行布施的見証。鄭和的第四至第七次下西洋遠航中，最遠航行至非洲東海岸。途經主要國家及地區有滿刺加、爪哇、占城、蘇門答臘、阿魯、錫蘭、柯枝、古里、甘把里、阿丹、刺撒、南渤利、彭享（今馬來西亞彭京河口）、急蘭丹（今馬來西亞哥打巴魯）、加異勒、忽魯漠斯（今霍爾木茲海峽格什姆島）、比刺、淄山（馬爾代夫群島）、孫刺、木骨都束（今摩加迪沙）、麻林（今肯尼亞的馬林迪）、仆刺、蘇祿、沙里灣泥、竹步（今索馬里）等。鄭和歷經艱險，在28年（1450－1433）年航海生涯中到達東南亞、南亞、伊朗、阿拉伯、非洲東海岸和紅海沿岸共三十多個國家和地區。鄭和第六次出使，曾到榜葛刺（今孟加拉）訪問。榜葛刺國王帶著官員及迎賓的禮儀用品,騎著馬,排起長長的隊列歡迎鄭和上岸。鄭和與國王一起,在身穿盔甲的軍士護衛下,向王宮走去。王宮大殿前設孔雀翎傘蓋百余,又有百余頭大象列隊,歡迎的場面降重而又熱烈。鄭和宣讀明成祖的詔書,國王拜接,并叩頭謝恩。隨后國王舉行盛大宴會款待鄭和。鄭和船隊的訪問在亞洲、非洲沿海國家產生了廣泛的影響，也激起這些國家對明朝的強烈想往。他們想看一看中國，想見一見明成祖。當時，渤泥（今加里曼丹）和滿刺加的國王和王后都到過我國南京，明成祖盛情接待了他們。東非的麻林國王哇頓親自率眾訪問中國，不幸在福州病逝。另外，在明永樂十九年（1421年），有十六國的使臣抵達南京。鄭和第六次下西洋的主要使命就是護送忽魯漠斯等十六國使臣返回各自的國家。

鄭和第七次下西洋時，還特地到伊斯蘭聖地麥加朝聖。鄭和七下西洋加強了中國與亞、非沿海各國的聯系和交流，亞、非許多國家的人民都非常懷念中國友好的使者三寶太監鄭和。至今，一些亞、非沿海國家還保留著許多有關鄭和的遺跡。在印度尼西亞的爪哇島上有三寶市和三寶公廟。在泰國有三寶廟和三寶塔。在斯里蘭卡首都科倫坡的博物館里還珍藏著鄭和當年建立的石碑。

當時，中國以南海為界，把通往各國的海路划分為東洋和西洋。鄭和七次出使航海都是走的西洋航線，到達的國家大都是西洋國家，所以人們稱他的航行為窶?#37165;和下西洋窶?#12290;鄭和是明成祖永樂皇帝信任的太監，人稱窶?#19977;保太監窶?#65292;佛家語音轉為窶?#19977;寶太監窶?#12290;因此窶?#37165;和下西洋窶?#22312;史書上又稱窶?#19977;寶太監下西洋窶?#12290;

從1405年到1433年的几十年里，鄭和先后七次下西洋，共訪問了30多個國家，加強了中國人民與亞非人民的友好關系，顯示了中國人在造船、航海等方面的高超技朮，証明在當時，中國在世界航海事業中居于領先地位。同時也反映了當時中國作為一個封建大一統的國家在政治經濟文化上所取得的成就。
鄭和下西洋是世界航海史上的壯舉，代表了當時世界航海事業的最高峰。

Zheng He (1371-1435 AD), an eunuch in Ming dynasty, built a total of 1622 ships and made at least 7 major excursions between 1405 AD and 1430 AD, reaching Somalia and probably Europe (France, Holland and Portugal). In each trip, he led a troop of 27,800 people on more than 300 ships. In each trip, 62 major ships of this fleet were employed, each about 475 ft long and 193 ft wide, holding 1000 people per ship, dwarfing Columbus窶 Santa Maria (75 ft x 25 ft) more than 6-fold.

The countries and territories covered and recorded in the official Ming history includes Java, Sumatra, Vietnam, Siam, Cambodia, Philippines, Ceylon, Bangladesh, India, Yemen, Arabia, Somalia, Mogadishu. As a clear demonstration of his travel to Africa, among the souvenirs he brought back to China were the giraffes and lions, indigenous animals of Africa.

The official history also mentioned 窶廡ranca窶 (which was the territory to describe today窶冱 France and Portugal) and Holland. The Hollanders were described as tall people with red hair and beard, long nose, and deep eye sockets. If he did meet with the Europeans in their native countries, then the only way would be to navigate around the Cape of Good Hope before the Suez Canal was a throughway.

In Africa near Kenya today, there are tribes that are clearly Asian-looking. They also consider themselves as the descendants of Zheng He窶冱 crew.

http://science.yam.com/ocean/exploit/index.html

Maciamo · 26 Sep 2004

stupidumboy said:
Zheng He (1371-1435 AD), an eunuch in Ming dynasty, built a total of 1622 ships and made at least 7 major excursions between 1405 AD and 1430 AD, reaching Somalia and probably Europe (France, Holland and Portugal). In each trip, he led a troop of 27,800 people on more than 300 ships. In each trip, 62 major ships of this fleet were employed, each about 475 ft long and 193 ft wide, holding 1000 people per ship, dwarfing Columbus窶 Santa Maria (75 ft x 25 ft) more than 6-fold.

The more you post, and the more I come to believe that this story is a real scam. Do Chinese people have problem with calculation or what ? Each trip had 27,800 people and 300 ships; 62 of these ships held 1000 people per ship. That is already 62,000 people, and there are 238 ships remaining. What does this mean ?

The countries and territories covered and recorded in the official Ming history includes Java, Sumatra, Vietnam, Siam, Cambodia, Philippines, Ceylon, Bangladesh, India, Yemen, Arabia, Somalia, Mogadishu.

Do any of these countries have records of the Chinese passage to their country ? Countries like India or Arabia should.

As a clear demonstration of his travel to Africa, among the souvenirs he brought back to China were the giraffes and lions, indigenous animals of Africa.

I seriously doubt that a giraffe or lion would have survived the trip from Africa to China 500 years ago. Do you know how many kilograms of food a giraffe eats a day, and how many liters of water they drink a day, and what space all that takes on a ship ? I checked on the web and it says they eat up to 75kg and drink in average 12 liters daily.
Then it takes a few months to cross the Indian ocean, which makes it impossible (would need 13,500 kg of food and over 2000 liters of drinking water for a single giraffe for 6 months !!).
Already with modern ships and technology (refrigeration, etc.) it is hard for such a huge animal as a giraffe to make such a journey on a ship. As for lions, there are/were lions in Asia too (nowadays only in few hundreds in Western India).

The official history also mentioned 窶廡ranca窶 (which was the territory to describe today窶冱 France and Portugal) and Holland.

How wonderful. If only France and Portugal didn't have that big mass of land called Spain in the middle, that could have made sense... (well, actually no, as Portugal has never been part of France or vice versa).

In Africa near Kenya today, there are tribes that are clearly Asian-looking. They also consider themselves as the descendants of Zheng He窶冱 crew.

It is also said that a group of Indonesians reached Madagascar by chance several centuries ago, and that many people there still have Indonesian blood.
So why not Chinese, but how to know if that is not only one of these two ?

stupidumboy · 26 Sep 2004

I found a good news that tells well about the story of this book

stupidumboy said:
Gavin Menzies originally intended to write a book about the significance of the year 1421 around the world. While researching it in Venice, he was shown a planisphere, dated 1459, which included southern Africa and the Cape of Good Hope.

Yet the Cape was not "discovered" as a sea route by Vasco da Gama until 1497. On the planisphere was a note in medieval Phoenician about a voyage round the Cape to the Cape Verde Islands in 1420 - and a picture of a Chinese junk.

Menzies felt he was on to something.

Using Chinese star charts and maps that pre-date the expeditions of Cook, Magellan, de Gama and Columbus, he has reconstructed what he believes is the epic voyage of Zheng He.

He says his knowledge of astro-navigation helped him to work out that the Chinese, using the brilliant star Canopus to chart their course, had sailed close to the South Pole.

He determined their latitude and went on to find literary and archaeological evidence to show that the Chinese had effectively circumnavigated the world.

He said: "When I started, I was terrified people would think I was a crank. But although my claim is complicated and stands history on its head, I am confident of my ground.

He added: "What nobody has explained is why the European explorers had maps. Who drew the maps? There are millions of square miles of ocean. It required huge fleets to chart them. If you say it wasn't the Chinese, with the biggest fleets and ships in the world, then who was it?"

Chinese ocean-going supremacy in the first half of the 15th century is not in question.

The expeditionary junks were three times the size of Nelson's Victory and dwarfed the 16th century ocean-going European caravels. Under his patron, the Yong-le Emperor Zhui Di, Zheng He made seven great voyages to bring foreigners into China's tribute system.

When he returned in October 1423, China was in political and economic chaos. The treasure fleet, now considered frivolous, was mothballed, admirals pensioned off and shipyards closed.

Although most of the records of Zheng He's voyage were expunged, a few maps and star charts survived.

Menzies believes they were taken to Venice by a merchant traveller, Nicolo da Conti, who had joined one of the Chinese junks in India. In his travel book published in 1434, da Conti claims to have sailed to China via Australia - 350 years before Captain Cook.

Menzies argues that, on his way through Venice in 1428, the King of Portugal's eldest son obtained the salvaged maps and incorporated them into a map of the world.

The most controversial part of his theory is that copies of parts of this mappa mundi were used by da Gama, Magellan and Cook. Some of these still survive in museums: Patagonia (1513), North America (1507), Africa (1502) and Asia and Australia (1542).

The letters and logs of the European explorers - including Columbus - certainly acknowledge that they had maps, says Menzies. "They knew where they were going before they set out."

But Some controversial questions like these followings.

stupidumboy said:
"It is possible that Chinese geographical knowledge had reached Europe before the Age of Discovery. But Mr Menzies is absolutely certain of it, and that makes it difficult to separate evidence from wishful thinking."

"I had always wondered where the Mappa Mundi came from and why the explorers set off so confidently. Gavin has done a hell of a lot of homework. But trust him to get himself into a controversy."

"What about these Chinese wrecks? Where are they? What state are they in?"

News

News

@Maciamo,

You still misunderstanding something-the trip was not only accompanied by the people but they needed many things from Food,Water,Tools etc etc.
I can easily understand why they needed such many ships for one trip.

And I highly belive that they sucessfully carried Giraffs and Lions,consider the size of the ships and the number of the ships accompanied for the trip,I think that did not matter how much of the amount of what Giraffee ate -Plus the grass weighs very lightly.They did not need to carry hundreds or tens of Giraffes.

Giraffee can be often found in Chinese traditional architectural sculpture and pieces of handicraft.
Also if you read Korean version of this book-you can find an illustration that is showing a person who is holding the rope on the Giraffee's neck -the illustration was drew in the Ming dynasty period.

seasurfer · 27 Sep 2004

Maciamo said:
The more you post, and the more I come to believe that this story is a real scam. Do Chinese people have problem with calculation or what ? Each trip had 27,800 people and 300 ships; 62 of these ships held 1000 people per ship. That is already 62,000 people, and there are 238 ships remaining. What does this mean ?

Some of these ships were not used to carry men. It is used to carry foods and weapons. Some of it were use to camouflage.

You can't say this is a scam, because I have seen those historical sites before. And it is clearly recorded in the chiense history. Evidence of absent is not absent of evidence. Countries like India and Arab has undergone many turmoils since that period till today, those records could have been destroyed. We just don't know it.

India and Arab has a long history with China even before Zheng He. So it won't be anything new if they see a chinese man coming to their place. If it is not something new or special you wouldn't pay much attention to it right?For Africa, do they have any written language at that time?

Do any of these countries have records of the Chinese passage to their country ? Countries like India or Arabia should.

Yes. Zheng He came to Malacca. Which is now part of Malaysia. Malaysia has a very clear record about his arriving. Those places that he visited even become a tourist destination in Malaysia. You can come to Malaysia and see it yourself. There is even a street name after him. This year, Malaysia government is also planning to shoot a movie with China about him. Hope this answer your doubt. Malaysia has been a peaceful country, so a lot of historical sites are being well preserved.

I seriously doubt that a giraffe or lion would have survived the trip from Africa to China 500 years ago. Do you know how many kilograms of food a giraffe eats a day, and how many liters of water they drink a day, and what space all that takes on a ship ? I checked on the web and it says they eat up to 75kg and drink in average 12 liters daily.
Then it takes a few months to cross the Indian ocean, which makes it impossible (would need 13,500 kg of food and over 2000 liters of drinking water for a single giraffe for 6 months !!).
Already with modern ships and technology (refrigeration, etc.) it is hard for such a huge animal as a giraffe to make such a journey on a ship. As for lions, there are/were lions in Asia too (nowadays only in few hundreds in Western India).

As I said earlier, they brought along many ships, a lot of them were actually used to store food. And most of their ships were huge.

It is also said that a group of Indonesians reached Madagascar by chance several centuries ago, and that many people there still have Indonesian blood.
So why not Chinese, but how to know if that is not only one of these two ?

You have to know that the objective of Zheng He was not to send people and settle there. His objective was to promte the Ming Dynasty to the world. More importantly, Chinese don't like to die in a foreign land, so they will not choose to stay there unless something happen in their country, but during the Ming Dynasty period, China was very posperous, so staying in a foreign country was not their choice.

Maciamo · 27 Sep 2004

In his travel book published in 1434, da Conti claims to have sailed to China via Australia - 350 years before Captain Cook.

And how did he call that place ? Not Australia, as the name is quite recent. The Dutch are believed to be the first European to reach Australia around 1650 and they called it "New Holland" (and the next big islands "New Zealand", both Holland and Zealand being provinces of the Netherlands). When Captain Cook set up the first British colony there in Botany Bay in 1788, the whole British territories there became known as "New South Wales", while the Dutch territories in the West were still New Holland. The name Australia came only in the 19th century. So how did da Conti explain where he had been (a place without name) and how can we prove it was really Australia ? I am not saying it is not possible he and the Chinese had been there. It's so near from Indonesia that even Australian Aborigenes and Papu from New Guinea can trade together with primitive boats. I just want some hard facts.

You still misunderstanding something-the trip was not only accompanied by the people but they needed many things from Food,Water,Tools etc etc.
I can easily understand why they needed such many ships for one trip.

No, even if all the remaining 238 ships had not a single man aboard (which is impossible), they said there were 62 ships of 1000 men each, but the total was 28,000, which is why I can't trust these sources. :auch:

And I highly belive that they sucessfully carried Giraffs and Lions,consider the size of the ships and the number of the ships accompanied for the trip,I think that did not matter how much of the amount of what Giraffee ate -Plus the grass weighs very lightly.

What difference does that make that grass is light or not ? I said a giraffe eats 75kg a day, so if it's light t will just take more volume.

Then, giraffes are so tall, they would easily fall off the ship, or suffer some injuries during a storm, no matter how big is the ship.

Giraffee can be often found in Chinese traditional architectural sculpture and pieces of handicraft.
Also if you read Korean version of this book-you can find an illustration that is showing a person who is holding the rope on the Giraffee's neck -the illustration was drew in the Ming dynasty period.

So what ? There has been scupltures of lions in China for thousands of years, but there are no lions in China. There has been representations of lions, elephants, crocodiles or whatever in Europe since ancient times (over 2000 years ago), but there aren't any in Europe. It's not because a child has never seen a real giraffe that they can't draw one. Knowledge can be communicated more easily than things, throughout the world and through the ages. Even better, dragons don't exist but there has been images of dragons both in Europe and China for thousands of years. Why ? Who thought it up first ?

seasurfer · 27 Sep 2004

Maciamo said:
No, even if all the remaining 238 ships had not a single man aboard (which is impossible), they said there were 62 ships of 1000 men each, but the total was 28,000, which is why I can't trust these sources. :auch:

Why not? I really don't understand how you calculate. Those ships were very big.

What difference does that make that grass is light or not ? I said a giraffe eats 75kg a day, so if it's light t will just take more volume.

Then, giraffes are so tall, they would easily fall off the ship, or suffer some injuries during a storm, no matter how big is the ship.

Fall off the ship? That is too exagerated...the ship was very big...holding a giraffe is not a problem...but i wonder where they put the giraffe after they went back to china? Can giraffe survive in china's climate? Or may be there just draw a picture of giraffe when they saw and didn't actually bring it back.

]
So what ? There has been scupltures of lions in China for thousands of years, but there are no lions in China. There has been representations of lions, elephants, crocodiles or whatever in Europe since ancient times (over 2000 years ago), but there aren't any in Europe. It's not because a child has never seen a real giraffe that they can't draw one. Knowledge can be communicated more easily than things, throughout the world and through the ages. Even better, dragons don't exist but there has been images of dragons both in Europe and China for thousands of years. Why ? Who thought it up first ?

Are you sure that China got no lions? There is a kanji for lion, 獅. If Chinese people never seen a lion, probably there wouldn't be a kanji for that animal. Chinese never see giraffe before, so there is no one kanji word for giraffe....chinese never seen a penguin before too, so there is no one kanji word for penguin...I guess lion must had been one of the most common animals seen by chinese, that is why there is a kanji for it...

stupidumboy · 27 Sep 2004

@Maciamo,

I have no professional knowledge about veterinary or animal things -but I am sure there must have been some efficient methods to carry animals on the ship for long time navigation. I need to check it.I think its not that much different from the method of carrying other animals by a ship during european discovering age for the American continent.
Probably only some more little application required for giraffee.

I highly doubt If one giraffe eats that much amount 75 kg in a day despite of the fact that one masai male giraffee weighs less than 1.1 ton ,I think the giraffee what Chenghe carried was "Amime giraffe" that weighs much less than the "Masai Giraffee",anyways I will look for the information.

The Dragon was just imaginary animal but the lion and giraffee were sucessfully introduced to China by Chenghe's campaign-I need to check of the sotry what animals the Chinese emperors had on their garden. -I have a memory of reading a book that told about the animals on the palace garden. Most of them were difficult breed found in China,but Since China had many tribunal states abroad,the palace had many kind of foreign breeds of animals.

I will look for the informations about that.

OK now I have to go now and will be back after one week later since Korea is now having a thanksgiving holidays for the next coming week.

@Everybody

Have a nice weekdays !

bossel · 27 Sep 2004

mad pierrot said:
What exactly are you looking for? Coins and artifacts left behind? Alien flora and fauna? DNA evidence? Documents in China telling about the voyages? Linguistic coincidences? Little plastic dinosaurs with "made in China" written on them? Any one of these things on it's own could be suspect, but disregarding all of it seems impulsive at best. I think all of the aforementioned indicates that it is highly probable that Chinese Junks reached as far as the New World. Granted, yes, his book should not be read as fact, but rather as theory. A very likely theory.

Nope, it's a hypothesis. The evidence is far too weak for a theory. There is absolutely no evidence that Zheng He reached America. Maybe some Chinese came to America, that's possible, but Zheng He? Highly improbable.

Funny that you cite documents in China. On the website they claim that (nearly) all records have been destroyed. Which makes it obvious that Menzies didn't do much research in China. For what I heard, Zheng He's voyages are well documented, namely in the "Ming shi" and the "Ming shi lu".

The cited DNA evidence is highly dubious. I haven't heard of any DNA research that showed East Asian DNA in America, beyond that from the times when America was originally settled (& that of recent immigrants).

Coins & artefacts (which I haven't seen yet), flora & fauna (which I'm not too well-informed about), if they exist, are no evidence for Zheng He's "discovery". At best they are evidence for some form of contact in ancient times. Linguistic coincidences are just that: coincidences.

For the rest of it, I think, Senseiman has pretty well summed up the mess Menzies made.
I will read the book anyway, but I definitely won't buy it. Once it becomes available in a local library I'll have a look at it.

stupidumboy said:
Zheng He (1371-1435 AD), an eunuch in Ming dynasty, built a total of 1622 ships and made at least 7 major excursions between 1405 AD and 1430 AD, reaching Somalia and probably Europe (France, Holland and Portugal). In each trip, he led a troop of 27,800 people on more than 300 ships. In each trip, 62 major ships of this fleet were employed, each about 475 ft long and 193 ft wide, holding 1000 people per ship, dwarfing Columbus窶 Santa Maria (75 ft x 25 ft) more than 6-fold.

@ Seasurfer: This is what Maciamo pointed out: if 62 ships carry 1000 people, you have already 62000, how then do we get the number of 27800 for the whole fleet of 300?

What's more, don't you think a fleet of that size wouldn't have made the news back then? If Zheng He reached Holland, people would have noticed.

Not only that, 30000 (or 60000) people need provisions. Where to get that, if you sail into unknown territory? It is not only hard to get the provisions on the way but, if you find a harbour, also very expensive.
Columbus' little fleet with 87 crewmen was just the right size.

Oh, Columbus! If he had such good maps, why was he so convinced to have found a way to India? Either his maps were not as good as some people claim or he must have had very bad eyes to overlook this big blot between Europe & Asia.

Maciamo · 27 Sep 2004

seasurfer said:
Are you sure that China got no lions? There is a kanji for lion, 獅. If Chinese people never seen a lion, probably there wouldn't be a kanji for that animal. Chinese never see giraffe before, so there is no one kanji word for giraffe....chinese never seen a penguin before too, so there is no one kanji word for penguin...I guess lion must had been one of the most common animals seen by chinese, that is why there is a kanji for it...

There are kanji for dragon (竜 or 龍) but dragons son't exist. In Japanese at least, there are kanji for rhinoceros (犀), giraffe (麒麟) and leopard (豹), but I don't think any of them live in East Asia. As for lions, there could have been some in China in ancient times (the same way there were tigers in both Japan and China). But new kanji can be made easily. There were no kanji for "turkeys" which are birds from the American continent, but now there are (七面鳥), and the same is true for Hippopotamus (河馬), although they are just combination of existing kanji.

bossel said:
The cited DNA evidence is highly dubious. I haven't heard of any DNA research that showed East Asian DNA in America, beyond that from the times when America was originally settled (& that of recent immigrants).

I agree. They should be especially caeful that "native Americans" are also descended of East Asian Mongoloid people, so their DNA will ressemble that of the Chinese. I am not sure how fast DNA can evolve, but Amerindians have proably left Asian 10-15,000 years ago (which is not so long). If DNA changes much faster, then it could have have in the last 600 years since Zheng He too, making it difficult to prove anything. As for inside SE Asia or Polynesia, most people (except Aborigenese of Australia and New Guinea) are ultimately of Chinese descent through progressive emigration southward. When we know that places like Hawaii have only been settled by humans 500 years ago (after Zheng He !), it is also doutful that Zheng He passed in the area. Please read Guns Germs and Steel for more info on this matter.

Linguistic coincidences are just that: coincidences.

Yes, and like I said, Amerindians, SE Asians and Polynesians could all be descended from Chinese, or at least an original Mongoloid people (like Caucasians would all be descended from the original Aryans, all speaking the same Aryan language). All of this probably less than 15,000 years ago.

What's more, don't you think a fleet of that size wouldn't have made the news back then? If Zheng He reached Holland, people would have noticed.

Exactly. Had he been in Holland, France, Portugal, Arabia, Persia or India, they would have had to deal with the local authorities, and surely raised alarmed too (not everyday that those people saw 28,000 or 62,000 Chinese, which they had surely never seen before, disembarking to their ports). There would have been leftovers of Chinese money, silver or gold artifacts they exchanged for food in these countries. If not, it means either they have never been there or they had to plunder the countries they passed along, which would have made the news unmistakeably, and immediately brought the local army against them. Any loss of records in China would not explain loss of records in Europe or anywhere else.

Oh, Columbus! If he had such good maps, why was he so convinced to have found a way to India? Either his maps were not as good as some people claim or he must have had very bad eyes to overlook this big blot between Europe & Asia.

Especially that he was Italian too, like da Conti who is said to have copied the maps from China. They would have known each others, or Columbus would have seen the map in Venice anyway.

mad pierrot · 27 Sep 2004

@bossel

I'm glad you're going to read it. You'll have to tell your thoughts again after you do. I still think it's very likely that Chinese Junks reached the New World, but I agree that presenting it as fact that Zheng He led a glorious crusade there is stretching the truth to say the least.

Nope, it's a hypothesis. The evidence is far too weak for a theory.

Not true. Check in a dictionary.

bossel · 28 Sep 2004

Maciamo said:
Please read Guns Germs and Steel for more info on this matter.

Thanks for the recommendation, will look for it in the regional libraries, when I find the time. I have a recommendation, too: Cavalli-Sforza! He is one of the authorities regarding human genetics. His Genes, Peoples, and Languages very nicely explains the spread of humans. Although he has (or at least says so) the overly PC idea of there being no races, his work is worth reading (& contradicts in a way his own PC attitude).

mad pierrot said:
I'm glad you're going to read it. You'll have to tell your thoughts again after you do.

Oh, don't wait for my reaction. I'm pretty busy at the moment (probably the next 6 or 7 months). But the book isn't available at a local library, anyway. I've been waiting since it was published, but obviously not too many libraries are interested in this book.

mad pierrot · 28 Sep 2004

Had anyone read Jared Diamonds other works? I've been thinking about picking up The Third Chimpanzee. Can anyone here recommend it?

stupidumboy · 1 Oct 2004

I found an interesting page that tells about "疆里圖"
Its written in "Kangnido" in English documents to follow the Koean standard language rule.
I did not know that.

These are two copies of the Kangnido. The one on the left dates 1402 whilst the one on the right 1420. The Kangnidos bear a close resemblance to the Da Ming Hun Yi Tu, but since the place names appear in its original Mandarin Chinese, much more information could be gathered from it. The Kangnidos identify thirty-five names indicated on or near the African continent.

Most of these names are derived from Arabic. The lighthouse of Alexandria is clearly visible on the map, with the Mandarin Characters which reads Msir 窶 the Arabic name for Egypt. Between the west coast and the inland water body is an area named Sang-ku, which is believed to be a transliteration of the Arabic word Zangue or Black People. The Kangnido on the right also contains the Chinese transcription Zhebulu hama, which scholars identified as Persianized Arabic Djebel alqamar or "Mountains of the Moon.''

Added to the detail provided in the Da Ming Hun Yi Tu the Kangnidos also identify a river flowing westward in the Southern part of Africa, which corresponds to the Orange River. The addition of this detail on the Atlantic side of the Kangnidos, suggest that the mapmaker could only have gained this information from sources that rounded the Cape of Good Hope.

The landmass protruding on the right hand side of the African continent is believed to be the Arabian Peninsula. The island east of Arabia is named Hai-tao, which apparently represents Sri Lanka (Ceylon). To the east of Sri Lanka, we find the triangular shape of India with a river, believed to be the Ganges River, flowing through it. The long river emerging from the South on the right of the Indian subcontinent is labelled He Shui (窶廝lack River窶?, which refers to the Salween River that flows through the Tibetan plateau. Along the coast from China to Africa, the following major rivers are thus laid out in sequence the Red, Mekong, Menam, Salween, Ganges, Indus, Tigris, and Euphrates.

Contact with Arabs resulted in the use of Arab names on the African east coast as well as northern Africa, however, the knowledge of the interior parts of Southern Africa, even prior to Zheng He窶冱 journeys, remains one of the greatest puzzles emanating from these maps, as well as the Da Ming Hun Yi Tu. The Government of Japan assisted Parliament in locating these maps and the late Prime Minister of Japan, the Honourable Keizo Obuchi, presented a copy of 1402 Kangnido to the Speaker of the National Assembly.

http://www.pmpsa.gov.za/kangnido.html

Great and detail explanation about this map:

Slide #236 Monograph

A good book to read

Ledyard, Gari. "The Kangnido: A Korean World Map, 1402." In Jay A. Levenson, ed. Circa 1492: Art in the Age of Exploration. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1991.

http://yalepress.yale.edu/YupBooks/viewbook.asp?isbn=0300051670

I found the author's posting from the web.

I agree with Charles Armstrong's suggestion that you apply to the
Ryukoku University Museum in Kyoto. I know that it has detailed
photographs that are easier (but still not always legible!) to read than
the illustrations accompanying my monograph in Harley & Woodward's
_History of Cartography_ II,2. Remember also that the Ryukoku copy is
only one of the three copies in Japan, and that the names are not always
the same on the three copies. See the references to the other two in my
monograph. Korean scholars have made a modern copy of the map with more
legible characters, although even on this copy you would need detailed
photographs for ideal legibility. That copy is held by the Kyujanggak
Library of Seoul National University.

http://koreaweb.ws/pipermail/koreanstudies_koreaweb.ws/1999-September/000484.html

Gari K. Ledyard is King Sejong Professor of Korean Studies, and a specialist in Korean history. He received his B.A. (1958), M.A. (1963) and Ph.D. (1966) from the University of California (Berkeley).

Department of History - Columbia University

if you guys want to see more informations about this map-google search input "Kangnido"

kangnido - Google Search

The Gift of a Giraffe

Throughout his seven voyages Zheng He visited more than 30 countries and managed to collect marvellous treasures and tribute for the Ming Emperor.
Shen Tu窶冱 painting documents the arrival in Beijing of an African giraffe presented to the Ming Emperor in October 1415, as a gift from the ruler of the Kingdom of Malindi in Kenya.The special significance of this event for the Chinese is reflected in the text accompanying the painting:

窶廸ow in the twelfth year, in a corner of the Western Sea, in the stagnant waters of the great marsh, a Ch'i-lin has in truth been found; some fifteen feet in height, its body that of a deer and with the tail of an ox, with a fleshy horn without bone and luminous spots like red cloud in a purple mist. Its hooves do not trample on living creatures and it moves with careful tread, walking in a stately manner and with a continuous rhythm. Its harmonious voice has the sound of a bell or musical chime. Benevolent is this creature whose manifestation of divine spirits reaches up to the abode of Heaven. Ministers and people together vie to be the first to gaze upon the joyous spectacle, a true token of Heaven's aid and a proclamation of Heaven's favour. How glorious is the Sacred Emperor whose literary and military virtues are most excellent, who has succeeded to the Precious Throne and has achieved Perfect Order in imitation of the Ancients.窶

In Chinese mythology the Ch窶冓-lin was a special creature that appeared only to those with the 窶徘urest of spirit窶? It is, like the unicorn in Western mythology, a symbol of good fortune. The confusion around this event was further exacerbated by Admiral Zheng He窶冱 report upon presenting the gift to the Emperor. According to the records, Zheng He reported that the local people of Malinda also referred to this animal as Ch窶冓-lin, and by presenting the animal as tribute to the Chinese Emperor they acknowledged his supreme status. Scholars however argue that Zheng He (understandably) confused the Somali word for giraffe, girin for the Chinese word Ch窶冓-lin

http://www.pmpsa.gov.za/Zheng he.html#

China Discovers the New World...?

stupidumboy

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