Capital punishment

[RolandtheHeadless]

It's a complicated comparison. We have dual law enforcement and court systems here in the US: state and federal. The state legal system in my state, Alaska, doesn't have capital punishment because it would be against our state constitution. Alaska didn't become a state until 1959, and by then there was a well-documented history of death sentences being passed disproportionately on minority races and ethnicities.

But the federal system does have capital punishment for certain crimes; they could try a defendant in federal court and, if he's convicted, ask the jury for the death penalty. It's our Congress (legislative branch) that passed laws setting the death penalty. Whether to give a guilty person the death penalty or life in prison must be decided by the jury in each particular case.

The death sentence could be passed by a federal judge in my state, but the sentence couldn't be carried out here because we don't have a federal prison with execution facilities. They have to ship them south to kill them, and have done so in a few cases. We just had a case where a man who raped and murdered a young woman plead guilty in federal court, in exchange for receiving life in prison instead of the death penalty he could have received if the case had gone to trial.

 

[Hezam]

Sorry ! i didn't notice the "hate" !
I edited the links but please correct me if i'm wrong.
Thanks

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Sorry ! i didn't notice the "hate" !
I edited the links but please correct me if i'm wrong.
Thanks

Thanks for editing the links, it makes sense now

However, the stats seem to further support the article I posted, that there is no correlation between violent crime and the death penalty.

 

[Hezam]

Maybe the Middle East is different than the US !
But here death penalty for killers works very well.
^^

 

[Mycernius]

If the death penalty works so well in Saudi how come they are one of the top three countries with the most executions? Mind you this is a country that still has the death penalty for witchcraft. I ask you, in this day and age they still believe in witchcraft, and think people should be executed for it. They also have it for homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy, making and distributing alcohol, rape, apostasy, idolatry and sexual misconduct. What kind of modern, forward thinking country has the death penalty for idolatry, blasphemy, homosexuality and sexual misconduct; a very ambigious term?
I'll tell you what sort of country, an authoritarian one that loves to control its people and makes sure it keeps them in place with such barbaric methods of terror.

 

[Mycernius]

Emoni and the anti death penalty,see this Statistics :
Death Penalty Map in the US :
File:Death penalty statutes in the United States.svg - Wikipedia

And see the crime rates :
List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

the crimes almost increase in the states where no death penalty..
I am looking for your replies.

The maps do not match with your claim.
For example: Philadephia in Pennsylvania has a murder rate of 23 per 100 000. Pennsylvannia has the death penalty.
yet Honolulu in Hawaii has 2.0 per 100 000. Hawaii doesn't have the death penalty.
The highest in in New Orleans in Louisianna at 63.6 per 100 000. A state with the death penalty.
Rape is the heighest in a state with the death penalty: Cleveland, Ohio 97.6 per 100 000.

Next time look through the tables before posting.

 

[Hezam]

If the death penalty works so well in Saudi how come they are one of the top three countries with the most executions? Mind you this is a country that still has the death penalty for witchcraft. I ask you, in this day and age they still believe in witchcraft, and think people should be executed for it. They also have it for homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy, making and distributing alcohol, rape, apostasy, idolatry and sexual misconduct. What kind of modern, forward thinking country has the death penalty for idolatry, blasphemy, homosexuality and sexual misconduct; a very ambigious term?
I'll tell you what sort of country, an authoritarian one that loves to control its people and makes sure it keeps them in place with such barbaric methods of terror.

Why did you turn the topic to another topic !!

The maps do not match with your claim.
For example: Philadephia in Pennsylvania has a murder rate of 23 per 100 000. Pennsylvannia has the death penalty.
yet Honolulu in Hawaii has 2.0 per 100 000. Hawaii doesn't have the death penalty.
The highest in in New Orleans in Louisianna at 63.6 per 100 000. A state with the death penalty.
Rape is the heighest in a state with the death penalty: Cleveland, Ohio 97.6 per 100 000.

Ok let's say that i was wrong,But should not we kill the murderer ?
What is your justice ? support your point of view by reasons...

For your info,If a person killed someone by mistake he pay "Diyah" and we don't kill him,we kill the murderers who kill in purpose wether it decrease the crime rate or not but it's a reason to decrease crimes.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Ok let's say that i was wrong,But should not we kill the murderer ?
What is your justice ? support your point of view by reasons...

Do you think murder is wrong?

 

[Emoni]

I feel like I should put a round table in the center of this discussion for you to all run around in circles.

 

[Mycernius]

Hezam this thread is on the death penalty in general. It is assumed it is just about murder, but read through the thread it mentions rape as well.
Does a rapist deserve the death penalty? The victim usually survives, although psycholgically damaged from it. How about female rapists? It does happen. No death has occured. In this case the punishemnt does not fit the crime.

My argument against the death penalty are laid out in the opening post and in answers to later replies. See #7.

 

[Emoni]

Hmm, I dunno, I think more research is needed on men being raped by women. Specifically on when hot women are the aggressors. For the sake of humanity and this thread, I'll volunteer myself as a test subject in this area.

Wish me luck.

 

[Hezam]

Do you think murder is wrong?

I feel like something is behind that question :?

I think more research is needed on men being raped by men

Yes,i can't even imagine it...!

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I feel like something is behind that question :?
Yes,i can't even imagine it...!

Was I that obvious?

My point was that if murder is wrong, how is it justified to punish a murderer by murdering them? Do we then punish a rapist by raping them or an adulterer by shagging his wife? ☝

And as Mycernius says, in Saudi Arabia many crimes carry the death penalty. Is it OK to kill someone for rape, adultery, homosexuality or apostacy?

 

[Hezam]

I think i have to post the Islamic law of crimes to discuss it here..It's not murder always,But the purpose of it is to make a good society.

i think and many people too,Murderer must be killed !

 

[Emoni]

I feel like something is behind that question :?
Yes,i can't even imagine it...!

Ok, tonight's lesson is to not make rape jokes late at night when I'm tired. I meant WOMEN actually... Epic fail there... nothing like volunteering to be raped by men for science. There go the rumors again.

Time for bed, you two have fun.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

nothing like volunteering to be raped by men for science. There go the rumors again.

I think i have to post the Islamic law of crimes to discuss it here..It's not murder always,But the purpose of it is to make a good society.

i think and many people too,Murderer must be killed !

But what about the other crimes? Take adultery, apostasy, blasphemy, homosexuality or idolatry as examples. They're not even crimes at all here, but there they're punishable by death?

 

[Haruspex]

Ok, tonight's lesson is to not make rape jokes late at night when I'm tired. I meant WOMEN actually... Epic fail there... nothing like volunteering to be raped by men for science. There go the rumors again.

Time for bed, you two have fun.

But see this is tricky. You won't be raped now, it will have to wait until you change your mind, else it couldn't be rape. When you're retired feeding the pigeons... expect the worst.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"My point was that if murder is wrong, how is it justified to punish a murderer by murdering them?"

The English word "murder" is normally defined as the intentional WRONGFUL killing of another human being. If the law does not determine the killing to be wrongful, it's not murder.

A soldier who kills in wartime is not (normally) committing murder. Someone who kills in self-defense is not committing murder. And someone who is executed by the state under the sanction of law has not been murdered.

"Murder" is a word thrown around too loosely today. Anti-abortionists are always saying that doctors are "murdering" babies, but if the abortion was legal, they are wrong.

 

[Hezam]

"My point was that if murder is wrong, how is it justified to punish a murderer by murdering them?"

The English word "murder" is normally defined as the intentional WRONGFUL killing of another human being. If the law does not determine the killing to be wrongful, it's not murder.

A soldier who kills in wartime is not (normally) committing murder. Someone who kills in self-defense is not committing murder. And someone who is executed by the state under the sanction of law has not been murdered.

"Murder" is a word thrown around too loosely today. Anti-abortionists are always saying that doctors are "murdering" babies, but if the abortion was legal, they are wrong.

Exactly,that's what i try to say but since my english is not very good,i don't see any difference between murder and kill

Thanks alot Ronald.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

The English word "murder" is normally defined as the intentional WRONGFUL killing of another human being. If the law does not determine the killing to be wrongful, it's not murder.

A soldier who kills in wartime is not (normally) committing murder. Someone who kills in self-defense is not committing murder. And someone who is executed by the state under the sanction of law has not been murdered.

"Murder" is a word thrown around too loosely today. Anti-abortionists are always saying that doctors are "murdering" babies, but if the abortion was legal, they are wrong.

You have a point. But just because an action is state-sanctioned doesn't mean it's not wrongful. When a soldier kills in wartime his aim is to defend his country or some principle his country holds dear - although don't get me started on whether it's really justified. When someone kills in self defense, his aim is to preserve his own life. I don't think capital punishment belongs in the same category. In this case, it's far from clear that killing the criminal is the only way to achieve our aim, which presumably is to prevent his committing another crime.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

But can't society say that it is killing a dangerous murderer to protect itself?

Anyway, I didn't mean to get into a debate over whether capital punishment is wrongful in an ethical sense. I meant in a legal sense.

 

[Mycernius]

Hezam, and other who are pro-death penalty, what would you have the death penalty for?
It is obvious murder is one of them, but how about others?
Here is a list of other crimes that have the death penalty from around the world. Do you agree with all of them?
Treason, espionage(USA), counterfeiting (in Algeria), sedition, torture, kidnapping, armed robbery, drug trafficking, desertion in the face of the enemy (Botswana), Secession (Cameroon), witchcraft, charlatanism (Central African Republic), rape, sodomy (Mauritania, Nigeria), apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, smuggling, threatening the life of the Emir (Bahrain), trafficking in children for immoral or illegal purposes, trafficking in women for purposes of prostitution (both in Bangladesh), embezzlement (China), Fraud (China), Arson (China) Poaching (China), piracy, consumption of alcohol (Iran), crimes against chastity (Iran), perjury causing an innocent person to be executed (Sri Lanka), biocide (Tajikistan), bribery (Thailand), genocide, murder of a police officer (Belarus).

Then there is how do you execute people. Various methods below:
Hanging, Firing squad, Electric chair (only used in the US), Gas chamber, Lethal injection, Beheading, Stoning, Strangulation, Single shot (favoured by the Chinese).

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

I favor execution for serial killers and mass murderers like bin Laden or Tim McVeigh. See the following link, if you don't know who this domestic US terrorist was:

This Page Has Moved

I really want to say we should execute repeat pedophiles, but there is a countervailing concern about whether such a penalty might only encourage pedophiles to kill their victims.

Some people are just too dangerous even for prison. There is always a risk of escape, and some of them pose a risk to the rest of the prison population. Murders occur in prisons quite often. Don't we have some duty to protect prisoners who might be in for lesser crimes? I think it's too much of a burden to expect society to run individual prison facilities for each dangerous criminal.

 

[Mycernius]

I favor execution for serial killers and mass murderers like bin Laden or Tim McVeigh. See the following link, if you don't know who this domestic US terrorist was:

And risk martydom? Which was exactly what McVeigh was after. He wanted to be executed for his cause and that is what Osama would want if he was caught and executed. Bring more fringe lunatics to his cause. Lock them away for years and they eventually die as forgotten nutters.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

McVeigh is well on his way to obscurity. He doesn't have any followers that I've ever heard of.

I have no doubt that the US government would seek the death penalty for bin Laden, if we could find him and take him to trial. Perhaps that would lead to martyrdom followers in parts of the Middle East, but so what? He's already a hero to those people.

To be honest, if I could get bin Laden in my rifle sights, I'd pull the trigger myself.