Can 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人 read English?

[LewiiG]

They see the letter "P" and read it as such, "ﾆ痴"
They see the letter "L" and read it as such, "ﾆ竪ﾆ停?ｹ"

These letters are in the middle of normal Japanese sentences.

Why are they able to do so?
Why is random English everywhere in Japan?
Why are some Japanese game menus in English? (surely this doesn't help?)

Just why? It's not like the average person from England can read 窶ｰﾂｼ窶督ｼﾂ。What is the situation regarding learning English in Japan?

I don't know whether the answer is a simple or more complicated one, but overall, what is the obsession with English in Japan?

 

[Mike Cash]

Same way you managed to read 日本人 in your thread title.

What's the obsession with Japanese outside Japan?

 

[nahadef]

I don't see it as an obsession with English at all. English has become the international language. For example, a Japanese business man can learn all the languages of Europe, or simply learn English, and most people in the countries of Europe will be able to communicate with them. Seems pretty normal to me.

Should Japanese study Thai in school?

 

[LewiiG]

Alright, I guess obsession was too strong a word. Okay, true. English is much an "international language" and as such many people may want to learn to learn it, in order to communicate with a wide range of people. And this I guess is why it is stuck on many signs and products as opposed to other languages because more people would understand it. I get THIS part of English in Japan. English like that is probably in every country.

I didn't exactly make myself clear, but what I needed to know was wether literally every person in Japan could read English. Not necessarily understand it, but read it. And then from how it sounds or looks could understand. I bet if I go to youtube now and find some comments... Yep!

"うん
KAITOではないでしょ"

"アニメとボカロ好きな方！
よかったらLINEで語りませんか？"

"歌もAKBも最高すぎる！！"

Why is this possible? Random English in Japanese? I guess those words are popular and may be understood with association. But it's not like I would go on youtube and say "任天堂 are amazing! Do you not agree?"

Is it like part of their life to learn the English alphabet or something? And the "English in some Japanese game menus" thing is strange too. How do they navigate? There is usually Japanese in brackets denoting their meaning, but in some there is none at all. And why even in that case take the extra effort to add potentially pointless English?

 

[Mike Cash]

English education is compulsory in junior high and high school. I know (well....I hope) you don't mean it this way, but your amazement at the ability of Japanese to learn 26 letters and to know some English words and mix them into their writing makes it sound like you would expect them to all be too stupid to be able to handle it.

Yes, practically everybody in Japan can at least kinda-sorta sound out English words, regardless of whether they may know them or not.

 

[DaisukeJigen]

I'm pretty she English is taught in school. Much like you may have to take a foreign language in high school, but to a higher degree.
Why they slip English in randomly though, I'm not sure. Especially when they slip them into speech where they obviously have Japanese words.

2

 

[LewiiG]

English education is compulsory in junior high and high school. I know (well....I hope) you don't mean it this way, but your amazement at the ability of Japanese to learn 26 letters and to know some English words and mix them into their writing makes it sound like you would expect them to all be too stupid to be able to handle it.

Yes, practically everybody in Japan can at least kinda-sorta sound out English words, regardless of whether they may know them or not.

Alright! This is what I was looking for. So they can read it. To a good extent. And lol no, by no means did I think they were too stupid. I just thought it was strange because English writing was being mixed into Japanese like it was meant to be (but it IS meant to be). So in that sense, could we consider the English alphabet as sort of, "In use" by the Japanese language? (as they HAVE to learn it at school?) ひらがな・カタカナ・漢字 AND ローマ字? I never thought of it like that. (Would I call that Japanese?)

Also I guess having 外来英語 (Sorry if I am not allowed to do that) makes it easier. Much like how being able to read katakana leads to me understanding a decent bit without doing anything else.

 

[Mike Cash]

English is loaded to the gunwales with borrowed words, but since we have only one alphabet to represent everything you seldom notice it or stop to think about it.

 

[DaisukeJigen]

English is loaded to the gunwales with borrowed words, but since we have only one alphabet to represent everything you seldom notice it or stop to think about it.

Loanwords are different. Foreign words are taken and Englishized, not just taken at face value. Japanese too contains many loanwords 'converted' to Japanese. The question is why is Raw English slipped in, non-Japanesized. Example, coffee vs ko-hi.
Also, in film and other entertainment. Why do they say 'stageu oneu' at the start of the sasuke course when they have Japanese words for that, as an example.

2

 

[Mike Cash]

Same thing, just a choice of orthography as a matter of visual aesthetics from people who have a wider choice than we do. All we can do is change fonts.

Look at your "coffee" example; it can be written in any of four scripts and be perfectly legible:

コーヒー
こうひい
珈琲
Coffee

Or even こーひー if somebody wants to take full license and get playful...."wrong" but perfectly legible.

 

[DaisukeJigen]

Even still, why use an English word when there's a Japanese one.
'Press Start' There's no real reason for that not to be in Japanese. It's not a loanword. I believe that is more what OP was asking.

2

 

[Glenski]

There IS a certain fascination for using English words, whether in katakana form or otherwise. Why? Sometimes it's trendy. Sometimes (as in the case of some politicians), people feel it makes them look smarter than their peers. Sometimes it's felt to be necessary in a bilingual sense for visitors (like on toilet or subway signs).

Can every Japanese person read, actually physically sound out correctly an English word?
No. Many, perhaps most can struggle at it. A large number fail at nailing the correct pronunciation. And, if you ask them to SPELL a word, they might fail miserably, too.
Ex.
Ask them to spell "right".
You could get "rait" or "raito" simply because there is no one phonetic sound "ri" in their language with the long I sound. They combine "ra" and "i" (short I) sounds.
I've seen plenty of these spelling mistakes on my university students' papers.

Oh, Lewiig, there's no need for you to intersperse your English with kanji here, OK? It looks...well...let's just say bad. Like a foreigner who has lived long enough in Japan to forget that he is conversing with a fellow English speaker. Other than a handful of commonly used words, it sounds lame.

 

[nahadef]

Sometimes the nuance of a katakana loan word is different than the Japanese word, so it's easier to give it a new word. For example, Japanese has a word for door, 戸, so I wondered why they use ドア as well. It was explained to me that the first is a traditional sliding door, while the other was a Western one with hinges, and that seemed good enough for me. After all, we have added the word futon to English, when it's just a kind of bed.

Another point about why they know the alphabet so well: generally on computers, you use the English alphabet to write Japanese. There is a way to input straight Japanese, but most use the English letters, in my experience. This will probably change as iPad style products become popular, but there has been 30 years of this romaji style input in use.

 

[Glenski]

Another point about why they know the alphabet so well: generally on computers, you use the English alphabet to write Japanese.

Despite that, if you have ever had experience with students in college trying to type on a computer keyboard things like their name (in English, of course) or anything else (like an email address with letters that spell common words), etc., you may find that they magically lose that ability to automatically locate the keys. They do so much better with conversion to Japanese, but suddenly become handicapped when the output has to be English. Weird.

Most college age kids nowadays can't type worth a darn on computers anyway. They are too used to thumb typing on their cell phones, they have lost that ability.

 

[LewiiG]

There IS a certain fascination for using English words, whether in katakana form or otherwise. Why? Sometimes it's trendy.

Could this be the reason for potentially unhelpful English in Japanese game menus?

Can every Japanese person read, actually physically sound out correctly an English word?
No. Many, perhaps most can struggle at it. A large number fail at nailing the correct pronunciation. And, if you ask them to SPELL a word, they might fail miserably, too.

So basically, they can read it, but maybe not sound it out perfectly (I guess it would edge toward sounding like what loan words sound like). However, they and other Japanese people will understand it, not caring about the pronounciation because it is being used as "Japanese", Like in my above examples. Kaito and (without a doubt) AKB could probably be sounded perfectly. But "LINE" may be pronounced incorrectly maybe (possibly not as there is ライン), but they will still understand it themselves. (I don't even know what "LINE" is here, (some chat thing?) but it must mean something to them).

Oh, Lewiig, there's no need for you to intersperse your English with kanji here, OK? It looks...well...let's just say bad. Like a foreigner who has lived long enough in Japan to forget that he is conversing with a fellow English speaker. Other than a handful of commonly used words, it sounds lame.

It has been noted. I just don't like the look of some Japanese words in roman characters. I will reduce my Japanese in English disscusions where there is no need for it.

 

[Mike Cash]

So you have visual reasons for rendering Japanese words in a non-native script in English.....then why does it strike you do odd that people in Japan might do the exact same thing?

 

[BrianLewis]

English is the international language for the sciences. In order for Korea and Japan to compete in the global economy after 1950, both countries decided to specialize in technology. So, naturally a society that pushes technological development pushes English in general. I don't see the big mystery here. Also, those of you that think "they just envy western civilization" are totally off the mark.

We have a cultural parallel: Consider how much Greek and Latin we use for medical terminology. Is it necessary to say cardiac instead of heart? Have you ever wondered why it sounds more professional to do so?

 

[nahadef]

English is the international language for the sciences. In order for Korea and Japan to compete in the global economy after 1950, both countries decided to specialize in technology. So, naturally a society that pushes technological development pushes English in general. I don't see the big mystery here. Also, those of you that think "they just envy western civilization" are totally off the mark.
We have a cultural parallel: Consider how much Greek and Latin we use for medical terminology. Is it necessary to say cardiac instead of heart? Have you ever wondered why it sounds more professional to do so?

I suppose that's why Westerners all study Greek and Latin from junior high school?

Who's saying it's envy?

Confusing.

 

[LewiiG]

So you have visual reasons for rendering Japanese words in a non-native script in English.....then why does it strike you do odd that people in Japan might do the exact same thing?

It did strike me as odd in the past. But that was before I received knowledge from you and the others; when I didn't know that they can understand written English words to an adequate extent. The answer to why they may replace Japanese words with English ones has become more clear to me than ever before, because I can do the same but opposite, you're right.

They understand it and it looks cooler.

 

[Glenski]

Could this be the reason for potentially unhelpful English in Japanese game menus?

IMO, partl, but probably more out of sloppiness and outright poor translating, just like they "learn" in HS.

So basically, they can read it, but maybe not sound it out perfectly (I guess it would edge toward sounding like what loan words sound like). However, they and other Japanese people will understand it, not caring about the pronounciation

Some people will not even be able to read it at all. My in-laws (in their 60s) can't speak, read or write English. Unless it is a commonly used word by the society or something as Japanese as AKB48 (in which case they say the number as "forty-eight" not "yon-ju-hachi"). Don't assume that because they know the 26 letters of the alphabet that they can sound out words (spelling and phonics don't mix) or even understand them as sight words.

But "LINE" may be pronounced incorrectly maybe (possibly not as there is ライン), but they will still understand it themselves. (I don't even know what "LINE" is here, (some chat thing?) but it must mean something to them).

Since there is no L in their phonetic makeup, it will sound like RINE. BTW, LINE is a phone chat system where messages from groups of select people are sent after they are typed. My wife uses it.

 

[LewiiG]

If English is a sort of "trendy" thing then would it be fair to say that younger generations will be better at understanding and using single words at least?

So if not everyone can read and understand it, they why do they risk the chance of it not being understood and write in the midst of normal Japanese comments? I can understand doing that if they do understand it, but if they might not, then why?

I looked again and it seemed like they were only using what would be considered "popular" words. So maybe it is after all just quick association with a word. And It's easier for them to do that than say an English person trying to associate a "popular" kanji because they learn basic English at school.

A Japanese person once told me they considered English words as a "design", capital letters especially. So I guess it is all just for "trend", even if it isn't correct. Much like kanji T-shirts and stuff over here, just to a more prominent extent.

 

[Mike Cash]

Also, those of you that think "they just envy western civilization" are totally off the mark.

Has someone in the thread made such a comment? Or was that merely gratuitous?