If nobody ever asked "why," nothing in the world would ever improve. Since you obviously hate Western society, Hachiro, I'm sure you're just jumping to go ahead and trash Socrates, Plato, Newton, Einstein, and every other philosopher and scientist who spent his or her entire life asking "why?" Y'know, if I had to name something that actually, seriously is wrong with Japanese society, it's that not enough people ask "why." Nobody expresses their own opinion, and everyone just stares at each other until someone proposes an idea that marginally satisfies everybody.
When I so much as make an observation of how Japanese are different, for example, the way they eat soup, you feel compelled to jump in and defend them, with "that's just the way they are," yet apparently you'll throw a conniption fit if an American defends his own actions with "that's the way I am." The only explanation I can find for this is that you are a hypocrite who abandoned his own culture long ago. Well, I am an American, and I'm not going to change who I am just because I'm temporarily living in Japan, and if Japanese mistreat me because of it, that's their prerogative, but my guess is that they won't.
If nobody ever asked "why," nothing in the world would ever improve. Since you obviously hate Western society, Hachiro, I'm sure you're just jumping to go ahead and trash Socrates, Plato, Newton, Einstein, and every other philosopher and scientist who spent his or her entire life asking "why?" Y'know, if I had to name something that actually, seriously is wrong with Japanese society, it's that not enough people ask "why." Nobody expresses their own opinion, and everyone just stares at each other until someone proposes an idea that marginally satisfies everybody.
When I so much as make an observation of how Japanese are different, for example, the way they eat soup, you feel compelled to jump in and defend them, with "that's just the way they are," yet apparently you'll throw a conniption fit if an American defends his own actions with "that's the way I am." The only explanation I can find for this is that you are a hypocrite who abandoned his own culture long ago. Well, I am an American, and I'm not going to change who I am just because I'm temporarily living in Japan, and .......
Calling me a hypocrite...hmm that's awfully funny there Jimmy my boy.
Resorting to comments like this help me to prove my point about certain personality traits that Japanese and for that matter many other people in the world find to be annoying about many American's.
if Japanese mistreat me because of it, that's their prerogative, but my guess is that they won't.
Resorting to comments like this help me to prove my point about certain personality traits that Japanese and for that matter many other people in the world find to be annoying about many American's.
I think you'll miss it entirely because you are showing yourself to blind to the obvious. Jimmy my boy you just dont get it do you..........
Perhaps he can't get it because your comments are permeated with condescension. For example:
That's the point.........but they don't quite see it or themselves that way now do they?
To many American's it's "Hey that's how we are" but they don't get it that just being the way they are is annoying to many Japanese. If they would learn to tone it down and quit coming across like a bull in a china shop things would be much easier for them. They are loud, overbearing and arrogant many times, when silent observation would be the best course of action.
If nobody ever asked "why," nothing in the world would ever improve. Since you obviously hate Western society, Hachiro, I'm sure you're just jumping to go ahead and trash Socrates, Plato, Newton, Einstein, and every other philosopher and scientist who spent his or her entire life asking "why?"
isn't totally unjustified. You appear ready to jump to the defense of the Japanese, while simulteneously prepared to crucify any Westerner for being Western. Whether this is intentional or not, this is the impression you are giving, and I can see why JimmySeal takes offense.
As for Americans being poorly mannered, I must comment that our lack of manners is a product of 40 years of cultural reform. Men once took their hats off whenever entering a building, or meeting someone new, for example, but now that's almost extinct. Americans also suffer from a dearth of etiquette because we are a nation of commoners. Although we have wealthy gentry throughout our history, we have no nobles to define etiquette for us, as it had evolved in Europe. For example, Benjamin Franklin was seen as charmingly rustic with his beaverskin cap in the court of the French king Louis XVI, because although he conducted himself with grace and charm, he was still a self-educated and uncultured commoner.
In addition, Western civilization has, since the ﾆ陳ｿﾆ津?津哉津照陳ｿ of Athens, been taught to as "why." We have been taught to value honesty, and taught to find better ways of doing things. Throughout Western history, cultures who resist growth, adaptation, and invention stagnate and decline, while those to innovate, take risks, and rock the boat succeed. And although this is seen as disharmonious to Eastern cultures, I must admit, it was Columbus in three leaky craft that started the colonization of the Americas, and not Zheng He in far superior ships half-a-century previous. It was gunpowder and Western weapons and tactics that placed Tokugawa Ieyasu on the throne of Shogun , although his grandson rejected everything Western in order to preserve the samurai and their tradition, and two hundred years later his line was overthrown because an upstart, low-born descendant of a farmer showed up off his coast with big, big guns.
I'm not defending American rudeness or attacking Japanese wa. What I am trying to point out is how your condescending attitude is misplaced. You seem to have a smugness about Japanese culture, and you give the impression of how it is far superior to anything Western. If this is unintentional, I apologize. But if it is, perhaps you should read some books by Victor Davis Hanson and Jared Diamond, or perhaps talk to educated, intelligent American businessmen about the Japanese companies they work for.
As for me, although I prefer my own culture (for its ideals, mainly, rather than its execution), I still respect Japanese culture, and I want to understand it. That is the reason I ask "why?" so much. If I understand the "why" behind a custom, I can apply that knowledge in other places as well and maybe avoid a faux pas.
Elizabeth said:
Europeans (and Australians?) even more so than Americans, I would generally consider extremely rude in Japan because they are always the ones polluting the public space by talking louder than everyone else in their native language, making blunt and demanding approaches on strangers, etc.
I've been hearing a number of complains by Americans about foreigners (mostly Indians, Hispanics, and Asians, but a few Europeans) doing exactly that at diners, coffee shops, and on the street. I disagree that this is rude, just so long as they do business in and address Americans in English, they can talk with one-another in their native tongues.
leonmarino said:
The Japanese culture is based on interdependant relationships instead of independant self-awareness, and the Japanese would do anything to avoid conflict or cause trouble. It is out of courtesy that many Japanese people refrain from expressing their (ego-centric) thoughts and feelings.
For many westernized people, including myself, not being able to express yourself seems like a weakness, but in the Japanese culture it is very natural.
I dunno if it is natural, but it certainly seems characteristic. However, many of the Japanese students I've tutored don't ever want to return to Japan, because they feel that maintaining wa is stifling and stressful, and prefer the "freedom of expression" and egocentrism of American culture.
Bucko said:
This happens everywhere in Japan. It's considered normal to treat shopkeepers or waitresses like rubbish, or like they don't exist. It's quite shocking at first but you get use to it. I think it's something to do with the whole (for lack of a better word) "inequality" or "seniority" system that still exists here.
This reminds me of something interesting. One of my students wrote an essay about American rudeness and Japanese reservedness. One of the things she complained about in her essay was how American shopkeepers and storeclerks don't smile, and that "have a nice day" seems tacked on. Having worked in retail myself, I remembered how a smile and a happy attitude worked well with some people, but most found it patronizing unless they got to know you personally behind the counter. I guess clerks stay aloof and "professional" in America. Once, supposedly, clerks always smiled (i.e. the "service with a smile" tag-line), but I guess we're all in too much of a hurry (both clerk and customer) to really be friendly.
Knowing that the Japanese ignore their storeclerks and greeters, who are always smiling and bowing, is almost completely opposite of how Americans have become.
As for Americans being poorly mannered, I must comment that our lack of manners is a product of 40 years of cultural reform. Men once took their hats off whenever entering a building, or meeting someone new, for example, but now that's almost extinct.
Lack of manners according to who? I'll bet most young people don't care one way or the other about someone having a hat on when they enter the room because that just doesn't matter. Really, who cares? Why is that a big deal?
I find that Americans tend to be more blunt and... enthusiastic (for want of a better word) in their manners than English people. Like in approaching to people directly, and stuff like that. And even in stores, saying 'have a nice day' or whatever... in England the counter staff don't really do that, or on the rare occasions when they do, it sounds so artificial and self-conscious it's embarrassing. (It sounds like something their boss is making a big effort to import over from America!)
I'm a very reserved person myself and I don't see that as rude. ☝ I think that in general (obviously every individual is different!), English people are more reserved than Americans, although maybe less so than Japanese. It seems that Japanese people have more 'collective' mentality (therefore not rocking the boat etc.), whereas Europe and America are more individualistic, as someone has already said. ^^
But that's not to say one approach is 'worse' than the other, nor can you blame the 'collective' mentality for Japan's failure to discover America (!) or other historical happenings. Each approach has its pros and cons. And of course, since society is composed of individuals, the social 'rules' don't always hold - there are always some people who don't conform. I mean, evidently you can't say that every single Japanese person is a following 'sheep'; nor can you say that every American is outgoing. Every country and culture has a mixture of different types. The high level of formal 'politeness' and social 'rules' makes team working more efficient, which has advantages; individualism and outspokenness fosters creativity, which has other advantages. So ideally you need a mixture of both.
Incidentally, what was with that 'soup in bowls' thing on the other page? :? I always eat soup from a bowl; what else could you eat it from? *is mystified*
People in England can be really rude to service staff, too, like in restaurants and stuff. It is supposed to be "the customer is always right" and you have to put up with being treated like s**t sometimes. Obviously not all customers are like that but especially middle-class...gahh. -_- So we are not always so polite!
This reminds me of something interesting. One of my students wrote an essay about American rudeness and Japanese reservedness. One of the things she complained about in her essay was how American shopkeepers and storeclerks don't smile, and that "have a nice day" seems tacked on. Having worked in retail myself, I remembered how a smile and a happy attitude worked well with some people, but most found it patronizing unless they got to know you personally behind the counter. I guess clerks stay aloof and "professional" in America. Once, supposedly, clerks always smiled (i.e. the "service with a smile" tag-line), but I guess we're all in too much of a hurry (both clerk and customer) to really be friendly.
Knowing that the Japanese ignore their storeclerks and greeters, who are always smiling and bowing, is almost completely opposite of how Americans have become.
Without arguing who is more American, on second thought, I guess we aren't all because storeclerks invariably smile naturally where I live and shop -- and ask how am I doing, thank you, have a nice day, etc. to the point of practical rudeness. They give the impression of not even wanting the patronage of unfriendly customers. The only ones that don't really seem to care are the Walmart clerks.
I was just curious about this topic, since it was brought up to me by someone else.
Yes, manners are different in different countries... And I agree that each society shapes what we find as "polite." In a more in depth discussion with my friend, I found that it's not that Americans are rude, persay. Just that some lack basic manners... Such as saying, "please" or "thank you."
However, that doesn't mean those people are rude. It could mean they are having a bad day! From personal experience, just the other day. I've had a death in the family recently, and I took it very hard. So obviously I wasn't in the best mood. From another person's perspective, I looked grouchy and unapproachable. ((And unfortuantely, I really did act like that! ))
So in that sense, judging anyone from a single momentary encounter isn't a good idea, no matter where you are in the world. My friend and I came to that conclusion the other night.
I did not mean to offend anyone by posting this topic! I am the type of person that wants to understand why, rather than remain ignorantly in the dark. People are never the way they are just because!! There is always a cultural story behind it. And I want to know the story.
I know very well it was condescending, there are reasons for it. It wasn't directed towards you.
I live in the US, and a friend of mine from Japan pointed something out to me the other day.
He told me that a lot of Americans have a lack of manners compared to Japan. He does love it here, and he thinks Americans in general are pretty cool, though! He's been here for four years now. If he did experience any rude behavior, he just turned the other cheek and ignored it. ((He's such a sweet heart)) It was the biggest culture shock for him!
True, a lot of people here are pretty rude! ((I'm not! I promise I'm very polite.))
Is there anyone living in the US that thinks this? Or anyone who has visited the US and experienced this lack of manners? I was just curious!
THe OP's friend is making a comparison, as so am I, I am not defending either societies differences in manners, it is you and others that choose to look at the comments I made pointing out certain things that Japanese people find to be annoying about American's and their manners. Unless you find those manners or traits to be offensive as well why comment.
or perhaps talk to educated, intelligent American businessmen about the Japanese companies they work for.
Talk about condescending, have you ever heard the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black". Your inferences here not not withstanding, I don't need to talk to any American's about their experiences. I've been working in Japanese businesses for 20 years now, I know what it is like. Just because I haven't sat down and wrote a book about those experiences doesn't mean I am not aware of how people think or work here.
I know fully well the comments were condesending. Let me say this, I have shed blood for my country, I've had friends die for my country, and to infer that I am against my country is ludicrous as hell.
One needs to live outside ones country to get a better view of how people from around the world think about your country. People living inside the country have a myopic view of the world and think that the world revolves around them. Not so, learn to see your country from other people's point of view.
Lastly dont just listen to you students about how they feel about the constraints of their home country(s). Get out there, live somewhere else for an extended period of time, if you can. "Educated" people like you from all over the world have very different views about America and American's you might be shocked a bit and learn something.
One needs to live outside ones country to get a better view of how people from around the world think about your country. People living inside the country have a myopic view of the world and think that the world revolves around them. Not so, learn to see your country from other people's point of view.
What we find polite is what we have been brought up to believe is polite.
What we find impolite is behaviour which differs from the above. It doesn't necessarily mean it was intended to be rude.
We can sit and debate who is more polite, whether one culture's behaviour is better than another, but there is no answer. Everyone's opinion will be different depending on which side of the fence you grew up.
I can't see there's really much more to say than that.
Lack of manners according to who? I'll bet most young people don't care one way or the other about someone having a hat on when they enter the room because that just doesn't matter. Really, who cares? Why is that a big deal?
Actually, you reinforced my point. Those manners have been done away with, by and large, by the past two generations. Removing your hat has been a sign of basic respect for hundreds of years in Western culture. The fact that some people don't care is a big deal because it's being wiped out as a form of manners. I'm not saying the change is good or bad, but I am saying that the change is important.
Elizabeth said:
Without arguing who is more American, on second thought, I guess we aren't all because storeclerks invariably smile naturally where I live and shop -- and ask how am I doing, thank you, have a nice day, etc...
I'm not surprised. I've actually heard that we are very rude on the East Coast according to some West Coasters.
Hachiro said:
I know very well it was condescending, there are reasons for it. It wasn't directed towards you. ... Talk about condescending, have you ever heard the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black"....and to infer that I am against my country is ludicrous as hell. etc. etc. etc.
I had nice replies lined up, but then I realized that it wouldn't make any difference.
Stinger said:
We can sit and debate who is more polite, whether one culture's behaviour is better than another, but there is no answer. Everyone's opinion will be different depending on which side of the fence you grew up.
Actually, you reinforced my point. Those manners have been done away with, by and large, by the past two generations. Removing your hat has been a sign of basic respect for hundreds of years in Western culture. The fact that some people don't care is a big deal because it's being wiped out as a form of manners. I'm not saying the change is good or bad, but I am saying that the change is important.
Sorry. I took it as "lack of manners" = "rude," because I've never heard "he's got no manners" or any of its variants ("he lacks manners") used in anything other than a negative light.
I doubt you did anything worse than annoy some people.
I am the type of person that wants to understand why, rather than remain ignorantly in the dark. People are never the way they are just because!! There is always a cultural story behind it.
Absolutely true! Cultures don't evolve in a vacuum, but emerge through a variety of stimuli. It's one of the things both anthropologists and historians study a lot.
Kinsao said:
I find that Americans tend to be more blunt and... enthusiastic (for want of a better word) in their manners than English people.
Enthusiastic is probably a perfect word to describe it. Although a couple of rowdy Londoners at my University seem to have stepped right out of a Guy Richie film.
In the words of Colonel Fremantle, "You [Americans] really are just transplanted Englishmen." Although the Americans he said it to were probably (unintentionally) insulted, it was only 1863 after all...
But that's not to say one approach is 'worse' than the other, nor can you blame the 'collective' mentality for Japan's failure to discover America (!) or other historical happenings. Each approach has its pros and cons.
I think they mean directly from the bowl, i.e. no spoon. You tip it up to your mouth, and use chopsticks to shovel the contents into your mouth. Rice is sometimes eaten the same way.
Quote:Originally Posted by Hachiro I know very well it was condescending, there are reasons for it. It wasn't directed towards you. ... Talk about condescending, have you ever heard the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black"....and to infer that I am against my country is ludicrous as hell. etc. etc. etc.
I had nice replies lined up, but then I realized that it wouldn't make any difference.
I see you are a master at snipping parts out of a thread. To clarify myself here the first remarks were not directed towards you the last one was. And you are right it wouldn't make any difference but probably not for the reasons that you think.
I think they mean directly from the bowl, i.e. no spoon. You tip it up to your mouth, and use chopsticks to shovel the contents into your mouth. Rice is sometimes eaten the same way.
Let me say this, I have shed blood for my country, I've had friends die for my country, and to infer that I am against my country is ludicrous as hell.
I think they mean directly from the bowl, i.e. no spoon. You tip it up to your mouth, and use chopsticks to shovel the contents into your mouth. Rice is sometimes eaten the same way.
Not only that, but while doing so, they suck the food into their mouths with the force and sound intensity of a hoover vacuum cleaner. Or at least a lot of middle-aged men do. More considerate people tend to be more subtle about it, but they're left doing battle with the belief that to eat silently is rude. I was merely citing that as an example of something that would knock most Americans (and most Westerners for that matter), out of their chairs. It's rude relativistically, not fundamentally.
I think it is only rude if done outside of their own environment. As long as they are doing it in their own country, and it is considered acceptable there, then how can it be considered rude?
I think it is only rude if done outside of their own environment. As long as they are doing it in their own country, and it is considered acceptable there, then how can it be considered rude?
I totally agree! So perhaps for my friend, having come from Japan to America, it was just different from what he is used to in his culture.
So in the end I suppose it's just a matter of culture, and in some cases simply a matter of interpretation.
But I have to say this. You should talk to "educated businessmen" as well as bus drivers, teachers, factory workers, bar tenders, students, and even the unemployed if you want to learn something new. Broaden your horizons to see the WHOLE horizon, not just part of it.
I have a job were I deal with Rude people everyday. And actually I am from the Deep South, and when I moved to Virginia (North Virginia isn't considered to be the south) I find that people up in the North are much more rude than people in the South.
Having never been to Japan (my first trip is actually this August yay) I can't tell if we or them are rude.
Adding nothing new really, but I just want to say that it can be a matter of culture; whether or not people are rude. Of course, there are always those exceptions, which are rude no matter what culture they are in: be it their own or a foreign one.
Just another strange thing about rudeness in different cultures:
I worked several months in a callcenter and my job would be to call people and ask them to answer some questions (for various kinds of surveys). Anyway, I would usually call within the Netherlands, but then one week, I had to make calls to Britain and I was astonished by the way the people there would react to my calling them!
I always kept a score of how many calls succeeded and how many failed, and I never had as many failed calls as in that one week!
Not yet been to Japan, so don't really know anything about that. But I do have to say that the Japanese I know that live here are usually just strange, but never rude.
I totally agree! So perhaps for my friend, having come from Japan to America, it was just different from what he is used to in his culture.
So in the end I suppose it's just a matter of culture, and in some cases simply a matter of interpretation.
But I have to say this. You should talk to "educated businessmen" as well as bus drivers, teachers, factory workers, bar tenders, students, and even the unemployed if you want to learn something new. Broaden your horizons to see the WHOLE horizon, not just part of it.
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Every country and culture has a mixture of different types. The high level of formal 'politeness' and social 'rules' makes team working more efficient, which has advantages; individualism and outspokenness fosters creativity, which has other advantages. So ideally you need a mixture of both. 
and you have to put up with being treated like s**t sometimes. 
Obviously not all customers are like that but especially middle-class...gahh. -_- So we are not always so polite!
The only ones that don't really seem to care are the Walmart clerks.
