- 15 Mar 2002
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I regret you missed the larger lesson I intended from the way the post was constructed.
are Americans innately racist?
- Thread starter FinancialWar
- Start date
I regret you missed the larger lesson I intended from the way the post was constructed.
Tamayo
先輩
- 15 Jan 2013
- 379
- 54
It was a question, not a statement.
- 15 Mar 2002
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Either way, you missed what I was driving at.
I would argue this phenomenon is not racist, but based in part on the very real history of communist/authoritarian states utilizing world athletic championships as a propaganda event showcase the greatness of their national ideology. The US cases are nothing compared to the systematic doping practices carried out by Eastern Bloc countries, particularly the GDR. There the sports program was run by the secret police, or STASI.
China has been guilty of this as well in the past, but its by no means on the same scale as the GDR's actions. There is significant evidence that in the 1980s the Chinese probably undertook some level of a doping program. There were far more than 7 cases over the past 30 years. The chinese swim team alone saw 28 swimmers caught during the 1990s. The only reason why its low for Olympic events was that they were often caught in world championships or other qualifiers.
So given this previous history of infractions, there is some basis to question the Chinese swimmer's integrity. However I don't know whether she did cheat, or whether some claims are really justified. Looking back at the whole Lance Armstrong affair, to me the lesson isn't one of racism, but just how effectively he was able to circumvent the system.
Last point. You're right that the west aren't innocent, however its not a state policy to carry out doping. Rather people did it in private and against the authority of their sports federations. Its also clear now that certain fields like sprinting and weightlifting saw widespread cheating during the late 70s and 80s.
- 21 May 2003
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Older generation.
When I was growing up , we were taught to believe the communist countries of Russia , China, North Korea etc. were worse than the devil himself. Propaganda made it sound like they were going to nuke us and make survivors into slaves at any moment.For those of us who grew up in the 40's ,50's , 60's ; to this day there is still distrust. In todays world, the news blames China for our loss of jobs and manufacturing industries. China is often in the news for sending unsafe/poisioness items to the US to sell. Years ago , many pet owners lost their beloved cats and dogs to poisoness petfoods from China. Todays news often makes the government of China look very evil. It seems when things in life are going wrong , like a poor economy and bleak future , people love to have someone to hate and someone to blame.I'm not sure if this has anything to do with this thread , but it may explain a bit of it.
Uncle Frank
:?
When I was growing up , we were taught to believe the communist countries of Russia , China, North Korea etc. were worse than the devil himself. Propaganda made it sound like they were going to nuke us and make survivors into slaves at any moment.For those of us who grew up in the 40's ,50's , 60's ; to this day there is still distrust. In todays world, the news blames China for our loss of jobs and manufacturing industries. China is often in the news for sending unsafe/poisioness items to the US to sell. Years ago , many pet owners lost their beloved cats and dogs to poisoness petfoods from China. Todays news often makes the government of China look very evil. It seems when things in life are going wrong , like a poor economy and bleak future , people love to have someone to hate and someone to blame.I'm not sure if this has anything to do with this thread , but it may explain a bit of it.
Uncle Frank
:?
- 5 Apr 2012
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Yeah, You did very correct observation here. The only thing where You are not accurate is, it is going not because people love to have someone to hate. Everything is going in accordance with "Gebbels Grosse Luge" propaganda rules: a) establishing internal enemy; b) establishing external enemy; c) establishing consolidating leading force. There are nothing new here, it doing on government level. And yes, after Soviet Union collapse, states suffered of lack of external enemy, so coming up China is very good candidate for that.
Kinda painfull.
- 15 Mar 2002
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Every time I see a Russian appear on an American show I know to get ready for:
1. Spy / KGB agent
2. Mobster
3. Prostitute
4. Political refugee
Every time I see an Asian on an American show I know they are there for:
1. Token casting
2. Comic relief
3. "Hey! Do something ethnic!"
A character can't just be Joe Blow and coincidentally just happen to be Asian....or Russian, either. Their presence is defined by their ability to fill some ethnic/racial stereotype.
1. Spy / KGB agent
2. Mobster
3. Prostitute
4. Political refugee
Every time I see an Asian on an American show I know they are there for:
1. Token casting
2. Comic relief
3. "Hey! Do something ethnic!"
A character can't just be Joe Blow and coincidentally just happen to be Asian....or Russian, either. Their presence is defined by their ability to fill some ethnic/racial stereotype.
Macrobiotic
Sempai
- 12 Oct 2012
- 230
- 6
I think the racial stereotyping was more evident in 80's and 90's tv-shows where every series with self respect had to have a "China-town" episode or similar where the main character or his sidekick solved some detective mystery, beat up bad guys and had a short romance with an ethnic girl who was typically 15 years younger or more. There were also many "black cop white cop" movies at this time.
Actually I think the trend in later years is to be uber politically correct by including for example gay african american characters who are very average-Joe or by always having some asian police assistant with a white girlfriend where race is never discussed. Ofc most series still need to have at least one episode where the world of these characters crumble when they are racially discriminated. This is also part of the politically correct propaganda.
Europe has followed the same pattern but instead of blacks and asians mainly focused on muslims. Every european criminal series need to have a super skilled, intelligent and also beautiful female officer named Fatima or something who is a secular and muslim while at the same time navigating the traditional muslim world without any problems in the most politically correct way.
In the case of a male, the average-Joe asian in american series is in Europe replaced with an average-Joe muslim from Pakistan or something who will no doubt develop a romance with a blonde british or danish woman who's also his work colleague. This romance will be "complicated" because both characters suffer from chronic depression, work fatigue and constantly spend a lot of time discussing depressing things accompanied by gloomy music, distant street lights outside a window and a feeling of constant loneliness. This gloom is supposed to show how everyone is deep down the same and how two depressed people sharing bed is the best thing in the world.
It's also not totally uncommon for the ethnic immigrant character to die a Romeo and Juliet style death because of racist acts, political persecution or some evil corrupt foreign government intervention.
The entire point of these series is to show how ethnicity doesn't matter, how everyone can unite in a diffused global mix where interracial secular love couples uphold democratic values by fighting evil nazis who commit terror acts (nazis or christians are usually the terrorists instead of muslims, who instead are portrayed as victims who just want to feed their family).
Actually I think the trend in later years is to be uber politically correct by including for example gay african american characters who are very average-Joe or by always having some asian police assistant with a white girlfriend where race is never discussed. Ofc most series still need to have at least one episode where the world of these characters crumble when they are racially discriminated. This is also part of the politically correct propaganda.
Europe has followed the same pattern but instead of blacks and asians mainly focused on muslims. Every european criminal series need to have a super skilled, intelligent and also beautiful female officer named Fatima or something who is a secular and muslim while at the same time navigating the traditional muslim world without any problems in the most politically correct way.
In the case of a male, the average-Joe asian in american series is in Europe replaced with an average-Joe muslim from Pakistan or something who will no doubt develop a romance with a blonde british or danish woman who's also his work colleague. This romance will be "complicated" because both characters suffer from chronic depression, work fatigue and constantly spend a lot of time discussing depressing things accompanied by gloomy music, distant street lights outside a window and a feeling of constant loneliness. This gloom is supposed to show how everyone is deep down the same and how two depressed people sharing bed is the best thing in the world.
It's also not totally uncommon for the ethnic immigrant character to die a Romeo and Juliet style death because of racist acts, political persecution or some evil corrupt foreign government intervention.
The entire point of these series is to show how ethnicity doesn't matter, how everyone can unite in a diffused global mix where interracial secular love couples uphold democratic values by fighting evil nazis who commit terror acts (nazis or christians are usually the terrorists instead of muslims, who instead are portrayed as victims who just want to feed their family).
Tamayo
先輩
- 15 Jan 2013
- 379
- 54
Keep in mind that Americans rarely come in contact with Russians or Asians, unless they're in a specific place (IE Asian market area, or in neighborhood where those cultures tend to accumulate). There's hardly any truth to the characters in movies, but I can't really recall a time where I met either a Russian or an Asian when they didn't stand out, either because of a heavy accent or odd (culturally different) behavior.
I totally see what you're saying, but people in America just don't really come across Joe Blows from polar-opposite cultures very often. I think that what you see in the media is a lot more reflective of the way people perceive foreigners on their first meeting, rather than racism.
For example, check this hilarious video out -- Obviously Americans aren't really (completely) like this, but this is the way that a lot of them will come off in other cultures. (Just a warning about the heavy language, incase you're not into that)
Tamayo
先輩
- 15 Jan 2013
- 379
- 54
Then can you really blame the people who have power over the media, or should we be focusing more on the ignorance of the masses who let themselves be influenced by messages that may or may not be malicious?
- 15 Mar 2002
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I hadn't thought about it in terms of blame.
Hezam
Out of Service
- 24 Aug 2007
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communist governments can't be compared to the western govs, i have never seen communist country with democratic law, they are always dictatorships.
Tamayo
先輩
- 15 Jan 2013
- 379
- 54
I fully acknowledge that racism is a big problem in America, but I know for a fact that a lot of it, if not the majority of the offense is only perceived, and not intentionally given. There's a ridiculous amount of racial tension here, not only because of actual racism, but because people are afraid of setting one another off unintentionally. Hell, people even started pointing fingers and calling people a racist for voting McCain instead of Obama.
People here who swear they're activists for racial equality are hyper-sensitive and they're prone to preemptively lash out at people if they think anything isn't completely "fair".I think that one of the biggest contributing factors is the media, but in a wildly different way than most "politically correct" people think it is. American media is deeply critical and satirical, and that makes for a lot of controversy, whether it's intended or not. Most shows that come off as racist try to do so in a funny way, and when you really think about it, what better of a topic to cover than an awkward run-in with a foreigner who has trouble communicating because of cultural or language barriers? I'd honestly argue that it's people who pick the shows apart and call it "racist" who are the biggest contributors to the problem.
I think that's horribly incorrect. I can think of five of the highest-rated primetime shows in the United States that have a several of asian american actors who play key roles that are really not "ethnically stereotyped" or token characters. And I don't think they are there to be politically correct either... I think its a pretty fair portrayal overall in all of those cases.
- 15 Mar 2002
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I believe I adequately qualified the scope of my comments; I limited them to what I see. I don't see the same things you do.
FinancialWar
Sempai
- 19 May 2006
- 1,065
- 44
- Thread starter
- #42
Neither have I seen an Asian country (excl. Japan, under American occupation and not really democratic anyway with LDP dominating Japanese politics) that was democratic before they they became a developed nation.
When you talk about China's "dictatorship", it is more cultural than political. China would be under dictatorship with or without communism whilst during economic development.
Hezam
Out of Service
- 24 Aug 2007
- 2,543
- 122
Japan with american influence is way better than China under dictators rule, am i wrong ?
I have heard this in Arab world, the dictators and their mobs said the same, dictatorship is connected to M.E culture, this is what they say but it is NOT...Chinese people need freedom and better life.
FinancialWar
Sempai
- 19 May 2006
- 1,065
- 44
- Thread starter
- #44
I am sure many Japanese people would rather live under dictatorship by a Japanese government than a dictatorship by a foreign government. Anyhow, it is subjective as to what you think.
But the fact is the currently Japanese government is pretty incompetent compared to the "big evil" Chinese government. In terms of economics growth, domestic control and global influence.
I bet you were one of these commentators who said the Arab Spring will caused the Chinese people to over-throw the Communist Party of China lol.
Chinese people will get their freedom after economic development, just like other Asian Tigers S.Korea, Taiwan, HK (yes, HK under British rule was never really democratic shocking?) and Singapore.
Better life comes from economic development and stability, something you should learn from the Chinese government, Asian people are smart enough not to let petty democratic ideology to divert from the main prize.
Now go hug a tree and cry "free tibet".
- 27 Nov 2012
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This whole thread concept is innately racist, and based on some debatable "facts."
It's ridiculous to say the Chinese government is doing better than Japan due to their growth, control, and influence. China is still a poor country, but it has a billion people. Per capita it's doing way worse, in terms of growth, control, and influence. Eventually, it'll get there, but I think it'll be 2050 before they are actually comparable to Japan. Chinese still want to move to Japan. Japanese don't want to move to China in similar numbers, even proportionate to the population.
And demanding exponential growth from one of the wealthiest per capita nations in the world is ridiculous. Once China actually matures as a country, there is zero chance that it's growth won't plateau. You can't grow like that forever. It's impossible.
I do hope that Chinese get their freedom after they are economically developed. In the cases like South Korea and Taiwan, it wasn't because the government wanted to give people freedom, but that people were educated enough to demand it. China's not there yet.
Macrobiotic
Sempai
- 12 Oct 2012
- 230
- 6
It is inevitable that the current world order sooner or later will collapse. The difference between Japan/Germany on one hand and China/India on the other is that the first two have already started looking towards the future in many aspects, contemplating such things as "zero growth economy", "post global capitalism" and future energy sources.
In Japan, some people say that China and India are chasing the dead end of global capitalism by following the tracks already beaten up by Japan and the west, enjoying some wealthy decades before crashing into misery.
Compare this to food. The traditional japanese, traditional okinawan in particular, food. It is not about abundant growth, excess energy or quantity, it is about longevity and survival. By eating low protein, low calorie food in small quantities and basically self starving for controlled periods of time, people get very old and very healthy. On the other hand westerners, americans in particular, overeating excessively protein-rich food become sick in their 50's.
If you look at the fact that the world's resources are limited, the chinese and indian wonder will come to a halt sooner or later. How will their societies react? Since they blindly follow western principles of "infinite growth" they will probably break rather than bend in the wind because there's metaphorically speaking no economic culture of controlled starvation and patience, just a massive overgrown inflation economy bound to burst and have a heart failure. This is where Japan has an edge.
Although chinese and korean kids score higher in maths on international tests, Japan is ahead in many scientific fields. Japan is used to bend in the wind without breaking. Japan is used to patience, discipline and self starvation.
If you want a practical example of Japans endurance, basically like a sturdy little plant living well in barren soil, look at how they have handled their banking and building sector since the crash some decades ago making it float like a "zombie economy" while keeping national debt inside the country through domestic loan givers and at the same time lending money to western states and taking interest on it. They stay floating although part of their economy is basically dead. They plan for long term, post-capitalist survival. They don't see infinite economic growth as possible or even desirable. India and China has nothing to match this, especially looking at japanese scientific ingenuity coupled with its sturdy disciplined mentality. The important thing in the future will not be long distance robots or smart phones.
In japanese there's the saying 武士は食わねど高楊枝 which I read explained by a japanese as something many people interpret in popular culture as the arrogant, confident attitude and pretended strength of a Ronin but which in reality means that even the Daimyo , depending on the times, had to adapt to a simple living with limited food. This is a good example of their economy also. The current stagnation and even recession is long term no real threat.
In comparison, to think that a tiny financial center like Singapore, completely dependent on the market, has any future in its current state is outright silly. Singapore at the current course is likely to be a wasteland or a prison in 100 years time. Singapore is like a one-season-only imported decorative flower which does not regrow after winter, a forest which can be cut down for resources but not replanted or like a paper sword impossible to repair after it breaks. Completely vulnerable and dependant on outside forces. The complete diametrical opposite of Japan seen in a historical context broader than just the "economic wonder of the 20th century".
In Japan, some people say that China and India are chasing the dead end of global capitalism by following the tracks already beaten up by Japan and the west, enjoying some wealthy decades before crashing into misery.
Compare this to food. The traditional japanese, traditional okinawan in particular, food. It is not about abundant growth, excess energy or quantity, it is about longevity and survival. By eating low protein, low calorie food in small quantities and basically self starving for controlled periods of time, people get very old and very healthy. On the other hand westerners, americans in particular, overeating excessively protein-rich food become sick in their 50's.
If you look at the fact that the world's resources are limited, the chinese and indian wonder will come to a halt sooner or later. How will their societies react? Since they blindly follow western principles of "infinite growth" they will probably break rather than bend in the wind because there's metaphorically speaking no economic culture of controlled starvation and patience, just a massive overgrown inflation economy bound to burst and have a heart failure. This is where Japan has an edge.
Although chinese and korean kids score higher in maths on international tests, Japan is ahead in many scientific fields. Japan is used to bend in the wind without breaking. Japan is used to patience, discipline and self starvation.
If you want a practical example of Japans endurance, basically like a sturdy little plant living well in barren soil, look at how they have handled their banking and building sector since the crash some decades ago making it float like a "zombie economy" while keeping national debt inside the country through domestic loan givers and at the same time lending money to western states and taking interest on it. They stay floating although part of their economy is basically dead. They plan for long term, post-capitalist survival. They don't see infinite economic growth as possible or even desirable. India and China has nothing to match this, especially looking at japanese scientific ingenuity coupled with its sturdy disciplined mentality. The important thing in the future will not be long distance robots or smart phones.
In japanese there's the saying 武士は食わねど高楊枝 which I read explained by a japanese as something many people interpret in popular culture as the arrogant, confident attitude and pretended strength of a Ronin but which in reality means that even the Daimyo , depending on the times, had to adapt to a simple living with limited food. This is a good example of their economy also. The current stagnation and even recession is long term no real threat.
In comparison, to think that a tiny financial center like Singapore, completely dependent on the market, has any future in its current state is outright silly. Singapore at the current course is likely to be a wasteland or a prison in 100 years time. Singapore is like a one-season-only imported decorative flower which does not regrow after winter, a forest which can be cut down for resources but not replanted or like a paper sword impossible to repair after it breaks. Completely vulnerable and dependant on outside forces. The complete diametrical opposite of Japan seen in a historical context broader than just the "economic wonder of the 20th century".
Hezam
Out of Service
- 24 Aug 2007
- 2,543
- 122
Not when the japanese have a big enemy near them threatening their nation.
Still, The chinese people get less than what the japanese get from their jobs...and less freedom, I judge governments by what they do to their people.
Yup, China needs better government, People are mad, And sooner or later they will act.
Lol, Freedom comes first, dude
just like other Asian Tigers S.Korea, Taiwan, HK (yes, HK under British rule was never really democratic shocking?) and Singapore.
LMAO, No thank you..better life comes from freedom and treating people with respect, Not like the Chinese bloody government.
If you say that in a big town in China they will kick your ***
Do you hug trees when you cry ?
but yeah i'm with free Tibet and East Turkistan.
FinancialWar
Sempai
- 19 May 2006
- 1,065
- 44
- Thread starter
- #48
In terms of nominal GDP, probably. But what is more important is GDP per capita PPP, actual amount of goods and service a person can buy, and it will not take that long to catch up.
Japan's current nominal GDP per capita is twice that of S. Korea, but PPP is almost of the same, meaning that a Japanese person on average is not much better off than a average S. Korean.
The same trend can be said of China to that of Japan. It will only take another 10 or 15 years for the Chinese to catch up with Japan in GDP PPP, so living standard wise will be the same of not better.
No one expect exponential growth from Japan, but no one expected the shameful economic management of the Japanese government for the last 20 years. In 1995 Japanese GDP per capita was 30% greater than that of USA (from memory), but now it is lower.
Because China is not ready yet, that is my whole point. It's not that it not going to happen, it is going to happen at a later date.
You didn't think there were people lobbying for freedom before it democratic reform happened in their country? People were lobbying for freedom all the time, the Korean and Taiwanese KMT suppressed reformists with brute force.
S. Korea and Taiwan started democratic reform because the government allowed it happen, not because the people all of sudden became educated.
The are people lobbying for political freedom in China all the time, from domestic citizens to international government. The Chinese government is wiser in that they put economic stability before political reform, or China would probably end up like Russian losing territories, economic growth and international power.
- 27 Nov 2012
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No, the government is not ready to give up their stranglehold. Tiananmen Square was over two decades ago, and it's still illegal to talk about it. People protest. They aren't all happy and trust the government thoroughly as you do.
- 24 Jun 2012
- 232
- 31
I love Japan - but i gotta agree with this.
The amount of serious face palm moments the Japanese Government makes on a regular basis is astonishing.
I think it's probably a symptom of Japans "revolving door" political system that sees only the most successful prime ministers last for any longer than 18 months in the top job.
The result of this has been a cavalcade of short sighted - narrow minded - quick fix, quick win, vox pop policies -
Concerning both national and international matters.
Compared to China which is definitely playing the long game.
The future is likely to see are more prosperous and also free china - while Japan seems to be moving in the opposite direction.
as for OP - that's just racist - and silly
