Anyone feel overloaded when learning?
- Thread starter w1ngzer0
- Start date
- 19 Jan 2005
- 1,972
- 232
Learning Japanese by yourself in the USA and not being exposed to the language (reading, writing, and speaking) on a daily basis would be a tedious and ongoing process imo where you will become frustrated and probably never get past the basics. How do you know you are speaking with the correct pronunciation, accent, and syntax if you do not have a native speaker there to correct and guide you and with whom you can converse with to ensure that you are learning correctly?
Without a native speaker on hand, you may be memorizing and speaking things completely wrong for which it will become ingrained in your brain and will be very difficult to overcome in the future.
You mentioned that you learned the first 10 hiragana in two days and hope to learn 10/day. If you lived in Japan you could probably memorize all the hiragana and katagana in a matter of a few days as you would be constantly exposed to it in your daily life on street signs, on TV, the trains, etc.
Therefore, my advice to you would be to wait until you have a competent, native teacher on hand to teach and guide you through the basics as, once you master the basics, especially pronunciation, and Japanese becomes a natural part of your life, you will more than likely never forget them.
Or, since you are in such a rush, you could go to Japan as an English teacher for a year or so, immerse yourself completely in the culture, and be proficient within that time. Also, if you have the funds, you could go on a study visa for the language and study 3-4 days/week at a language school. One year in Japan would probably be equal to three years learning in the US.
Good luck.
Without a native speaker on hand, you may be memorizing and speaking things completely wrong for which it will become ingrained in your brain and will be very difficult to overcome in the future.
You mentioned that you learned the first 10 hiragana in two days and hope to learn 10/day. If you lived in Japan you could probably memorize all the hiragana and katagana in a matter of a few days as you would be constantly exposed to it in your daily life on street signs, on TV, the trains, etc.
Therefore, my advice to you would be to wait until you have a competent, native teacher on hand to teach and guide you through the basics as, once you master the basics, especially pronunciation, and Japanese becomes a natural part of your life, you will more than likely never forget them.
Or, since you are in such a rush, you could go to Japan as an English teacher for a year or so, immerse yourself completely in the culture, and be proficient within that time. Also, if you have the funds, you could go on a study visa for the language and study 3-4 days/week at a language school. One year in Japan would probably be equal to three years learning in the US.
Good luck.
w1ngzer0
後輩
- 17 Jan 2004
- 262
- 0
- Thread starter
- #28
thank you. I will keep that in the back of my mind. The problem i have with going to Japan and learning the language is i wouldn't have the money for a language school as i would be spending it on living costs.Or am i missing something? ☝
The flash cards im using has some what of a pronounciation to them. For example ke = cage. So, im hoping for the best of me that is the correct pronounciation.
another example. ko = koi is Japanese for "carp"
The flash cards im using has some what of a pronounciation to them. For example ke = cage. So, im hoping for the best of me that is the correct pronounciation.
another example. ko = koi is Japanese for "carp"
Charles Barkley
TNT Basketball Analyst
- 14 Jun 2007
- 560
- 12
ke does not equal ca from cage. ca from cage would equal kei. It is more like ke from the childrens shoe brand 'keds.'
- 8 Aug 2005
- 7,316
- 3,727
You doom yourself to an unnatural accent (or flat-out incorrect pronunciation) by trying to equate Japanese to sounds found in your native language.
As a businessman, making the effort to pronounce a few polite phrases properly can go a long way, but it's folly to put off your plans until you are proficient in the language, especially if you are still struggling with the component sounds of the language. It is much more pragmatic to have a native level speaker on staff to make sure that all of your inter-cultural communication goes smoothly, and maybe even help you in your linguistic pursuits.
As a businessman, making the effort to pronounce a few polite phrases properly can go a long way, but it's folly to put off your plans until you are proficient in the language, especially if you are still struggling with the component sounds of the language. It is much more pragmatic to have a native level speaker on staff to make sure that all of your inter-cultural communication goes smoothly, and maybe even help you in your linguistic pursuits.
w1ngzer0
後輩
- 17 Jan 2004
- 262
- 0
- Thread starter
- #32
alright, i'll give it up. The point everyone is making is it's pointless to learn Japanese outside of Japan. Even with a teacher, you still will learn it wrong without the constant suroundings of the Japanese people. Please, forgive my ignorance in this subject.
I forgot to ask. What language could be near english that isn't so tone oriented? german or any europe language? I still would like to learn a language beyond english.
I forgot to ask. What language could be near english that isn't so tone oriented? german or any europe language? I still would like to learn a language beyond english.
JimmySeal
Tubthumper
- 5 Mar 2006
- 1,516
- 78
I disagree with the claim that it's useless to try to learn without a teacher or immersion. I studied Japanese in my free time for three years before taking any formal classes, and that was enough to place into second-year Japanese classes at a college with a very reputable Asian languages program. It took a few months for the teacher to whip my handwriting into shape and fix the bad habits I'd picked up trying to teach myself, and it was a while before my speaking and listening got up to speed (I'd never spoken more than a few words of Japanese to anyone), but I did it. After a year, I stopped taking classes and have been teaching myself ever since.
Some practice tapes and some movies can help a lot. Just imitate the sounds and sentences as well as you can. The key is to be conscientious and aware. A person can live in Japan for two years and still talk with a dreadful accent if they're not paying attention to the way people talk. So just pay attention and you'll be ok.
Nonetheless, I would suggest that you take Nice Gaijin's advice to heart.
Some practice tapes and some movies can help a lot. Just imitate the sounds and sentences as well as you can. The key is to be conscientious and aware. A person can live in Japan for two years and still talk with a dreadful accent if they're not paying attention to the way people talk. So just pay attention and you'll be ok.
Nonetheless, I would suggest that you take Nice Gaijin's advice to heart.
w1ngzer0
後輩
- 17 Jan 2004
- 262
- 0
- Thread starter
- #34
it's ok. I am taking it to heart and i'll just give up the language. I have no other way of making reference to another language, other then how these cards do it. It's not a habit, it's just how i learn. If i have nothing to reference it by; then it's impossible for me to learn.
Charles Barkley
TNT Basketball Analyst
- 14 Jun 2007
- 560
- 12
key (as in the object used to unlock a door) is pronounced identically to the japanese き or ki.
The Japanese sound け (ke) is pronounced like the English sound 'ke' in the words 'Keds' 'kemp' (the basketball player, shawn kemp), the boy's name 'kent' etc.
This is a different sound from the 'ca' in cage. The 'ca' in cage sounds like the 'eigh' in 'weigh,' the a in 'say,' and the a sound in the letter 'K.' This sound does not exist as one single syallable in japanese--it is created by adding the japanese い after a letter in the え category (ie え、け、せ、れ、め）. The 'ca' sound from 'cage' is would be written けい or 'kei.' 'kei' is pronounced just like the english letter K when the latter is pronounced alone (ie Circle K). If you add the english word 'tie' (as in necktie) to the end of 'K' and pronounce it as such, ie 'K-tie,' you get the Japanese word けいたい (keitai), which means cell phone.
Hope that helps.
JimmySeal
Tubthumper
- 5 Mar 2006
- 1,516
- 78
That's exactly the kind of attitude you have to give up if you ever want to learn any foreign language. There are loads of Japanese audio samples all over the internet, including ones geared at pronouncing the individual syllables. A little digging will turn some up easily.
epigene
相変わらず不束者です
- 10 Nov 2004
- 4,354
- 179
Absolutely.
My apologies to the other posters on this thread, but paragraphs after paragraphs describing in English how certain sounds are pronounced are nothing compared to the real thing. Dig up audios on the Web and imitate. That should be good enough!
Learning a foreign language outside its native-speaking environment may be difficult and slow and is not necessarily undoable. There have been quite a few JREF members, both past and current, who started Japanese language study on their own in their home countries and acquired a measure of proficiency.
Coming to Japan and immersing in the native-speaking environment can be regarded "a language course in fast-forward mode."
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
The problem isn't that what you propose is impossible from outside Japan.
The problem is that you need better source materials for learning, especially the sounds of Japanese. The great thing is that there aren't very many sounds and once you have them down (most especially the five vowel sounds), you're good to go.
It's best to learn them from some audio samples you can actually listen to rather than trying to get them from comparisons with English words. The largest problem with using English words is that there is sufficient regional variation between English speakers and the way we pronounce certain words that one can never be quite sure of getting it right. With Japanese audio samples, that problem disappears.
I'd like to see you do well. But the first thing you have to acquire when tackling acquiring a language is an "I will not let this kick my ***" attitude. If you don't have that, then save yourself the aggravation and go ahead and quit.
The problem is that you need better source materials for learning, especially the sounds of Japanese. The great thing is that there aren't very many sounds and once you have them down (most especially the five vowel sounds), you're good to go.
It's best to learn them from some audio samples you can actually listen to rather than trying to get them from comparisons with English words. The largest problem with using English words is that there is sufficient regional variation between English speakers and the way we pronounce certain words that one can never be quite sure of getting it right. With Japanese audio samples, that problem disappears.
I'd like to see you do well. But the first thing you have to acquire when tackling acquiring a language is an "I will not let this kick my ***" attitude. If you don't have that, then save yourself the aggravation and go ahead and quit.
w1ngzer0
後輩
- 17 Jan 2004
- 262
- 0
- Thread starter
- #39
You say " yah get something audio and stop reading those phonics on those flash cards." But i hear no recommendations on what i should look at for audio or when i say " i cannot learn any other way" is because ITS TRUE. I've struggled my entire life with school and learning this language is all i had.
The cards with the phonics reference was awesome. I've memorized 15 hiragana by their symbols alone because of how the phonics were setup. I was estatic when i did this. But someones always gotta bring you down, right? BTW, that whole "go ahead and quit you loser" doesnt' work with me. It just brings me down.
The cards with the phonics reference was awesome. I've memorized 15 hiragana by their symbols alone because of how the phonics were setup. I was estatic when i did this. But someones always gotta bring you down, right? BTW, that whole "go ahead and quit you loser" doesnt' work with me. It just brings me down.
Last edited:
- 8 Aug 2005
- 7,316
- 3,727
This talking kana chart should be helpful in learning how the symbols correspond to sound. This site seems to be pretty helpful for beginners.
We aren't trying to discourage you, we are trying to dissuade you from learning bad habits and setting unrealistic goals for yourself. Japanese isn't easy, but with patience and some good materials (a good teacher helps), you can make steady progress. Be reasonable with yourself and don't put off your business plans until after you master the language, or you'll just be stalling your professional development.
We aren't trying to discourage you, we are trying to dissuade you from learning bad habits and setting unrealistic goals for yourself. Japanese isn't easy, but with patience and some good materials (a good teacher helps), you can make steady progress. Be reasonable with yourself and don't put off your business plans until after you master the language, or you'll just be stalling your professional development.
Charles Barkley
TNT Basketball Analyst
- 14 Jun 2007
- 560
- 12
w1ngzer0
後輩
- 17 Jan 2004
- 262
- 0
- Thread starter
- #43
thank you all for being compassionate with my situation and seeing that; what was happening was me being disappointed and frustrated. But, i truely thank you guys for saving my .....oshiri 
Though, my cards will be a good "reference" like you guys say. I just won't use the phonics they provide. I did compair the spoken language on that genkei english site with my cards and you were 100% right Charles.
Though, my cards will be a good "reference" like you guys say. I just won't use the phonics they provide. I did compair the spoken language on that genkei english site with my cards and you were 100% right Charles.
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
You failed to quote the post you're responding to, so it's hard to know exactly who your comments are directed toward.
If I had any concrete recommendations for audio sources, rest assured I would gladly point you toward them.
I agree wholeheartedly. Who told you to quit and who called you a loser? And if you think it was me, I suggest you reread my post. I offered encouragement; not approbation.
If it makes you feel any better, I flunked the first Japanese course I took. I was 19, in the Navy, and we had a shipboard instructor from the University of Chicago as part of the Navy's PACE (Program for Afloat College Education) riding with us and teaching the class. Here I am 42, using Japanese as a tool of daily life, working in an entirely Japanese only environment, and with Japanese monolingual children.
Moral: Don't let initial setbacks/difficulties overly discourage you.
- 19 Jan 2005
- 1,972
- 232
w1ngzer0 said:
Most Japanese businessmen have a basic grasp of English anyway as it is required in many companies doing international business.
When you get to learn a little more about the Japanese and Japanese culture you will be pleasently surprised that they will be more than impressed that you even know how to speak a few phrases and words in correct Japanese.
A little language will go an awful long way to cementing relationships with your Japanese counterparts. The reason for this is that as much as the Japanese themselves have such a difficult time with learning foreign languages in their own country (much as you are having yourself in the US), they also feel that their own language is so unique and difficult that any foreigner than can speak it, even a little, must be intelligent and will praise you for your speaking ability. They will also greatly respect you in that you took the time effort to learn their "most difficult" language and culture.
Therefore, do not discourage yourself from self-study. The suggestions listed here were not ment to discourage or disparage you, they were ment to aid you in avoiding the pitfalls many people have when attempting to teach themselves a foreign language as they will be very difficult to overcome if you do not do the basics right (as you discovered with the proper pronunciation of ke). In fact I admire you for attempting to do this on your own and the great people here at Jref will gladly assist you in answering your questions and pointing you in the right direction. Just have the right tools, get the pronunciation down pat and, like Mike and others mentioned, the rest will come over time. The fact that you even asked for advice is a major first step.
I still wish you luck!
Haruspex
先輩
- 30 Aug 2007
- 2,324
- 96
If anyone tells you: "Quit loser!" just laugh, because in my opinion someone who managed to learn a certain language will never say that its impossible, and if he doesn't know the language yet he attempts to discourage you... well ask him kindly to die a painful death.
- 19 Jan 2005
- 1,972
- 232
Hey w1ngzer0, check out this site: Learn Japanese with Japanesepod101
I haven't subscribed to it, but it looks like it may be ok and the reviews seem to be pretty good. Also the sample lessons seem decent. Check it out and let us know what you think. It may be of a benefit and save you some money. Seems to be pretty detailed to me and involves, speaking and reading and, best of all, it's FREE for the basic lessons! Check out the Instant lessons!
I haven't subscribed to it, but it looks like it may be ok and the reviews seem to be pretty good. Also the sample lessons seem decent. Check it out and let us know what you think. It may be of a benefit and save you some money. Seems to be pretty detailed to me and involves, speaking and reading and, best of all, it's FREE for the basic lessons! Check out the Instant lessons!
w1ngzer0
後輩
- 17 Jan 2004
- 262
- 0
- Thread starter
- #48
This would be really good after i learn my kana.
Sometimes that's difficult to remember.Esspcially when it happens a lot. But, Japanese is the only thing i know for a fact, i want to learn.
BTW, you guys are too kind to me. Thank you. :joyful:
Sometimes that's difficult to remember.Esspcially when it happens a lot. But, Japanese is the only thing i know for a fact, i want to learn.
BTW, you guys are too kind to me. Thank you. :joyful:
Last edited:
Charles Barkley
TNT Basketball Analyst
- 14 Jun 2007
- 560
- 12
I dropped out of the intro to Japanese course I took in college as well. No way I was going to pass, so dropped it before the final test. Didn't learn anything, the professor was an insanely bitter white australian guy, and it put me off studying for a few months. But I finally got serious about studying on my own, did that for about 6 months, and now have been in Japan a little over a year, and the progress is going well.
It can be a tough language to get into, but the key is to not let anything set you back permanently, to practice every single day, and to eventually try to spend some time living here if at all possible...
It can be a tough language to get into, but the key is to not let anything set you back permanently, to practice every single day, and to eventually try to spend some time living here if at all possible...
w1ngzer0
後輩
- 17 Jan 2004
- 262
- 0
- Thread starter
- #50
That's an idea. I would love to live in Japan for something different. Something to experence. But, i would need to figure out something before i go over there. I mean career wise. But, the problem is is i don't know the job market over there. I don't know if someone like me with minor computer tech experence can get an ok job. If i went to school i don't know what would get me a job out there. I don't know a lot of things, as you can see.
I found this online school thing. With interaction with the teacher right online. What do you guys think?
JOI Learn Japanese Online
I found this online school thing. With interaction with the teacher right online. What do you guys think?
JOI Learn Japanese Online
Last edited:
