Another に particle question.

[nalo6451]

Sup gang.

In the sentence みちこさんはまどのちかくにすわっています why is the に particle used instead of で?

Cheers fam.

 

[Toritoribe]

Refer to the following post.
Utterly Lost | Japan Forum

How about your previous thread? You don't need to understand は vs が anymore?

 

[nalo6451]

Refer to the following post.
Utterly Lost | Japan Forum

Just looked through the thread you linked. I've seen most of that before, but clearly I'm not understanding something still. For example, you mentioned the phrase:
公園でベンチに座った。
I sat down on a bench in a park.

The way I interpret this is that this event occurred in the past, which had to involve movement to the bench in the park, before you sat there. The に particle is appropriate here because there was movement. But if I say:
公園でベンチに座っている。
I am sitting on a bench in a park.

--then I am already at the destination and am already doing the sitting, so there is no connotation of movement whatsoever. Thus if this phrase stands alone, I believe the park or bench would be more accurately described as a location and not a destination because there is no movement per se. This is why に makes less sense to me than で.

Another thing you mentioned in that thread which was confusing:

"で indicates the location of action, whereas に is for destination or arrival point with connoting a nuance of "direction" when used with 座る or 停める "to park a car". In the first example below, "park" was the location where the action "sitting" took place, and "bench" was the destination the action "sitting" was done"

You delineate で and に by saying the former indicates a location of action while the latter indicates a destination. I understand this (I think), but where you say:

(the) "park" was the location where the action "sitting" took place, and "bench" was the destination the action "sitting" was done"

I feel that both the park and the bench are both 1) locations where the action was done and 2) destinations. Any destination is a location, and many times vice versa is true, and so saying:
公園でベンチで座っている。

or:
公園にベンチに座った。
should also be valid.

 

[Mike Cash]

The movement to the park has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

[AmerikaJin5]

Just looked through the thread you linked. I've seen most of that before, but clearly I'm not understanding something still. For example, you mentioned the phrase:
公園でベンチに座った。
I sat down on a bench in a park.
The way I interpret this is that this event occurred in the past, which had to involve movement to the bench in the park, before you sat there. The に particle is appropriate here because there was movement. But if I say:
公園でベンチに座っている。
I am sitting on a bench in a park.
--then I am already at the destination and am already doing the sitting, so there is no connotation of movement whatsoever. Thus if this phrase stands alone, I believe the park or bench would be more accurately described as a location and not a destination because there is no movement per se. This is why に makes less sense to me than で.
Another thing you mentioned in that thread which was confusing:
"で indicates the location of action, whereas に is for destination or arrival point with connoting a nuance of "direction" when used with 座る or 停める "to park a car". In the first example below, "park" was the location where the action "sitting" took place, and "bench" was the destination the action "sitting" was done"
You delineate で and に by saying the former indicates a location of action while the latter indicates a destination. I understand this (I think), but where you say:
(the) "park" was the location where the action "sitting" took place, and "bench" was the destination the action "sitting" was done"
I feel that both the park and the bench are both 1) locations where the action was done and 2) destinations. Any destination is a location, and many times vice versa is true, and so saying:
公園でベンチで座っている。
or:
公園にベンチに座った。
should also be valid.

You're riding along a faulty logical path here. Not only are your last two sentences not valid, but you're fundamentally misunderstanding the distinction between "location" and "destination" in the given descriptions.

The particle で is used to indicate the location where an action takes place, as in "via" a place, and has almost nothing to do with the action itself, except for contextual significance. For example, where can you eat? Read a book? Play a game on your phone? Talk on the phone? Look for a new wallet? Look at the weather forecast? All of these actions can be done most anywhere. Thus, you indicate where you do something with で; e.g. アマゾンでこの靴を買った or 教室で食べてはいけません (etc).

The particle に is used to indicate the destination of motion or existence. So verbs such as 行く, 来る, 向かう, 入る etc. are all coupled with に, as well as いる/ある to indicate existence. Thus, if you are asked 今どこですか？(where are you?), you can say 駅前に立っています or 駅前にいます or 駅前で待っています, but you cannot say 駅前で立っています or 駅前に待っています or 駅前でいます.

Back to the park bench scenario: your butt is placed directly in the location designated by に, which by extension means you exist in that space; the bench could be anywhere, but this one happened to be located in a park, thus the location is indicated by で.

Some other scenarios that may be confusing when it comes to choosing に vs で might be:
(1) 教室にカバンを忘れました。
I forgot my bag in the classroom.
(2) 今年の会議で結果を発表します。
I will present my results at this year's conference.
(3) あの人の親切が私の心の中に残っています。
That person's kindness lingers in my heart.
(4) そんなに難しい計算が頭の中で出来るわけがありません。
There's no way I can calculate that in my head.

I'm guessing a lot of this repeats what is in the thread linked by Toritoribe-san, but hopefully you can grasp the difference better if you think in terms of "where something is done (where = whereby/via)" vs. "where something is headed/where something exists".

 

[Toritoribe]

Nice explanation, AmerikaJin5-san! :emoji_thumbsup:
Sorry for nitpicking, but actually, 駅前で立っています is acceptable since "in front of the station" can be considered also as the location of the action (the action "standing" is done in front of the station). It's similar to 床に倒れている and 床で倒れている are both valid.

But if I say:
公園でベンチに座っている。
I am sitting on a bench in a park.

--then I am already at the destination and am already doing the sitting, so there is no connotation of movement whatsoever.

How do you think about 駅に着いた, then? You already arrived at the station, so there is no action/movement anymore, but you don't need to change the particle, right? This is because the station is the destination whether the action is completed or not. The verb forms just indicate the tense or aspect, and に is used for the destination for all tenses/aspects even if the movement is already finished.

 

[AmerikaJin5]

Nice explanation, AmerikaJin5-san! :emoji_thumbsup:
Sorry for nitpicking, but actually, 駅前で立っています is acceptable since "in front of the station" can be considered also as the location of the action (the action "standing" is done in front of the station). It's similar to 床に倒れている and 床で倒れている are both valid.

Oh! Thank you for clarifying! Please, by all means, nitpick me without mercy! I need to learn more.
A while ago, I had used that and was corrected by my friend to use に立っています, but that might've been their personal preference. Now I know :emoji_relaxed:
Time to study some more!: